Uneven 4x5 development w/old Jobo tank

[Dave Krueger]

I just started processing 4x5 B&W in an old Jobo tank that uses 2021 reels. These actually predate the 2509N reels that seem so common on ebay, but they are similar. They take 3 shhets on each side for a total of six sheets per reel. The tank holds two reels.

What I get is apparent fogging of the film at the edges precisely where the spokes and guide bumps of the reel come close to the film. It actually darkens the unexposed base of the film, so it looks a lot like lights leaks. It is not consistent, but when it happens, you can see the same pattern from sheet to sheet.

I'm using xtol 1:1 with TXP 320. I'm using a 5 minute presoak.

Anyone else have any experience with these old reels (or even with the newer 2509N reels) that has seen anything like this? In some of the pictures I've seen on ebay, the 2509N reels seem to have some kind of black spacers associated with them, which makes me wonder if they are meant to prevent this problem by changing the flow properties of the tank.

Anyone have any opinions on how to correct the problem? I use a unucolor rotary base, so it would be a simple matter to occasionally tolt the tank back and forth to create some fore and aft agitation rather than just rotary.

I got this equipment free, so I'd really like to make it work rather than just pitch it in favor of some other method. It's all in good shape, clean, and looks to be light tight.

Any help would be appreciated.

-Dave

P.S. This problem is actually the cause for the uneven development problems I was having in my testing of Pyrocat HD vs MC in a previous thread...

[Dave Krueger]

Well, now I feel guilty for starting a thread and THEN finding so many related threads on the topic.

From what I gather, the newer 2509N reels have pieces that secure the ends of the sheets in place and possibly improve chemical flow.. I don't have problems with sheets coming out of the reels, but it looks like that's the primary purpose for those pieces.

Also, I noticed that there have been suggestions to tip the tank end to end during rotation to break the continous directional flow.

Finally, I saw somewhere a comment to the effect that someone else was having this problem only when the film is placed in the outer most slots, so I will try placing the film on inner slots.

My apologies for cluttering up the board with a duplicated topic.

-Dave

[Dirk Rösler]

Hi, I am using the same setup only with 2509 reels without problems. I also don't pre-soak, not sure if that's anything to do with it.

Amazing you got this setup for free. Good luck.

[Chuck Pere]

I've used these tanks for years but my methods are so different they are probably of no use to you. I use two reel tanks with only one reel, 4 sheets on a reel with the middle slot open, and inversion agitation with 1500ml of liquid. Lots of air space in the tank. Works for me. First I'd try the 4 sheets on a reel. If that doesn't work you will probably have to get the newer reels to try. Depending on the pricing it may be better to just get a new kit with tank. Also there are two kinds of newer reels and you should get the later models. For rotary processing you will probably end up with Expert Drums or some individual tube system.

[Dave Krueger]

Hi, I am using the same setup only with 2509 reels without problems. I also don't pre-soak, not sure if that's anything to do with it.

Amazing you got this setup for free. Good luck.

Do you mean you are using the 2509 reels with the 2336 tank? I can get the newer reels on ebay, so that might be an interesting option.

[Dave Krueger]

I've used these tanks for years but my methods are so different they are probably of no use to you. I use two reel tanks with only one reel, 4 sheets on a reel with the middle slot open, and inversion agitation with 1500ml of liquid. Lots of air space in the tank. Works for me. First I'd try the 4 sheets on a reel. If that doesn't work you will probably have to get the newer reels to try. Depending on the pricing it may be better to just get a new kit with tank. Also there are two kinds of newer reels and you should get the later models. For rotary processing you will probably end up with Expert Drums or some individual tube system.

I'd rather not have to go that route since I like to do one-shot developer which means I'd be throwing a 1.5 liters away every time I develop film.

Also, the most film I've had in the tank at once is just two sheets, so far. I put the two sheets on opposite sides of the top real.

-Dave

[Dirk Rösler]

Do you mean you are using the 2509 reels with the 2336 tank? I can get the newer reels on ebay, so that might be an interesting option.

Actually my tank is the 2551. Since you mentioned 2509N reels I assumed you had a similar tank.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Hi Dave;
I ran into a similar problem of ours many moons ago. I had to bite the bullet and go just four sheets per reel, leavin the middle open. In the long run, it was worth it to me.

One good thing however is I always liked HC-110 as a develoepr, an dyou knwo something, I can develop two reels, each loaded with four sheets - so eight sheets of 4x5 total, any B&W film, using just 10 ml of HC-110 concentrate. The way I mix it up, works out to roughly half strenght dil-B. A bottle of HC-110 can go a loooooong ways. :)

Now the other issue to address is it may NOT be your tanks, but X-tol itself. great developer, but very, very finickity. For exmaple, my local tap water is very hard, and it does not seem to "like" X-tol. Any B&W film, any B&W format, I have to mix X-tol with distilled water, not tap water, or I will have poor results. So check that our, as YMMV.

good luck
joe

[Eric Brody]

I use the 2509 reels, with the plastic spacer things, and based on experience and recommendations, develop just 4 sheets, one on the innermost and one on the outermost position on each side of the reel. The has considerably helped the even-ness of development. I do not presoak, and use xtol 1:2 (mixed with distilled water). My film is TMAX 100.

If what you're describing is really fog, there's a light leak somewhere. Plastic pieces, rotation speeds, developer, and how many sheets per reel will be irrelevant.

Good luck.

Eric

[Dave Krueger]

Hi Dave;
I ran into a similar problem of ours many moons ago. I had to bite the bullet and go just four sheets per reel, leavin the middle open. In the long run, it was worth it to me.

One good thing however is I always liked HC-110 as a develoepr, an dyou knwo something, I can develop two reels, each loaded with four sheets - so eight sheets of 4x5 total, any B&W film, using just 10 ml of HC-110 concentrate. The way I mix it up, works out to roughly half strenght dil-B. A bottle of HC-110 can go a loooooong ways. :)

Now the other issue to address is it may NOT be your tanks, but X-tol itself. great developer, but very, very finickity. For exmaple, my local tap water is very hard, and it does not seem to "like" X-tol. Any B&W film, any B&W format, I have to mix X-tol with distilled water, not tap water, or I will have poor results. So check that our, as YMMV.

good luck
joe


I will check out HC-110. My experience with Xtol is limited to my current testing of several different developers (including Pyros). I haven't settled on anything yet, but hope to soon. I don't like experimenting that much.

My water is well within Kodak's specs. Kodak has a comment about water hardness in their spec sheets and our ultility company publishes local water characteristics on the web, so it was a simple matter to check whether our water would be a problem. I haven't rulled out testing with distilled water, though. I just don't want to change too many things at once when experimenting or I won't know which process change resulted in different results. Anyway, I added that to my list of things to try.

I don't have any problem limiting myself to 4 sheets. The most I've had in there up to now is only 2 sheets. I'm not a prolific shooter. :-)

-Dave

[Dave Krueger]

I use the 2509 reels, with the plastic spacer things, and based on experience and recommendations, develop just 4 sheets, one on the innermost and one on the outermost position on each side of the reel. The has considerably helped the even-ness of development. I do not presoak, and use xtol 1:2 (mixed with distilled water). My film is TMAX 100.

If what you're describing is really fog, there's a light leak somewhere. Plastic pieces, rotation speeds, developer, and how many sheets per reel will be irrelevant.

Good luck.

Eric

Yeah, I just can't find a light leak, so it would seem like it HAS to be a kind of fogging. But, it sure looks like a light leak. There is actually dark streaks on the unexposed part of the film and it happens only on the end of the reel toward the top of the tank. It is either a light leak or uneven development caused by turbulence created by the geometry of the reel. The fogging is definitely aligned with the features of the reel, so it is definitely happening in the tank on not in the camera or due to a leak in the film holder.

Maybe I need to post a scan of one of the bad negatives so people could see what I'm talking about...

I will do more testing and will continue without the presoak for a while. My last experiment was without presoak and the film looked good, but I don't get the fogging every time, so it may or may not be a presoak issue.

-Dave

[paulr]

I've used those reels for years, with 6 sheets per roll. It's possible to get very even development, but it helps to do a lot of things to encourage it. Here's a list of things that I find to help. Some came from suggestions from jobo. I'm not saying do all of this, but it might be worth trying one at a time, then two at a time, etc., to see what helps.

1) the black plastic wedges are very important for smooth chemical flow
2) presoaking the film helps a lot with evenness with these tanks. presoaking with a weak alkaline solution to swell the emulsion especially helps. a touch of kodalk in the presoak water is all it takes.
3) rotation speed of the tanks is important. i forget what range they recommend; jobo tech support can help. they advise reversing the dirction every 3 to 5 rotations to interrupt any flow pattern that form. it makes a big difference.
4) some developers encourage uneven development much more than others. weak solutions will produce less evenness than strong ones. developing agents that are sensitive to bromide (like metol) will produce less evenness than ones that are less so (like phenidone). any developer known for edge effects will by its nature encourage edge density problems if you don't have perfectly laminar flow (and you'll never get perfectly laminar flow with these tanks).
5) some films seem more prone to streaking than others, but i'm not so sure about why this would be.
6) are you using a motor base or a jobo processor? if you're using a motor base, try filling the tank (with developer and stop) using a funnel with a hose attached, so you can pour it in while the tank rotates. makes a big difference.

[Dave Krueger]

I've used those reels for years, with 6 sheets per roll. It's possible to get very even development, but it helps to do a lot of things to encourage it. Here's a list of things that I find to help. Some came from suggestions from jobo. I'm not saying do all of this, but it might be worth trying one at a time, then two at a time, etc., to see what helps.

1) the black plastic wedges are very important for smooth chemical flow
2) presoaking the film helps a lot with evenness with these tanks. presoaking with a weak alkaline solution to swell the emulsion especially helps. a touch of kodalk in the presoak water is all it takes.
3) rotation speed of the tanks is important. i forget what range they recommend; jobo tech support can help. they advise reversing the dirction every 3 to 5 rotations to interrupt any flow pattern that form. it makes a big difference.
4) some developers encourage uneven development much more than others. weak solutions will produce less evenness than strong ones. developing agents that are sensitive to bromide (like metol) will produce less evenness than ones that are less so (like phenidone). any developer known for edge effects will by its nature encourage edge density problems if you don't have perfectly laminar flow (and you'll never get perfectly laminar flow with these tanks).
5) some films seem more prone to streaking than others, but i'm not so sure about why this would be.
6) are you using a motor base or a jobo processor? if you're using a motor base, try filling the tank (with developer and stop) using a funnel with a hose attached, so you can pour it in while the tank rotates. makes a big difference.


I'm using the 2336 tank with 2021 reels, so there are no plastic wedges. The wedges were for the 2509 reels.

Also, I'm using a unicolor base which does switch directions, but I don't know how many rotations it does each way.

I put the film in the top reel, so when I pour chemicals in, they don't touch the film until I tip the tank over and place it on the base.

[paulr]

I'm using the 2336 tank with 2021 reels, so there are no plastic wedges. The wedges were for the 2509 reels.

Also, I'm using a unicolor base which does switch directions, but I don't know how many rotations it does each way.

I put the film in the top reel, so when I pour chemicals in, they don't touch the film until I tip the tank over and place it on the base.

using one reel the way you do is probably just as good as what i described.

it's too bad that those reels don't take the plastic wedges. the tech reps i spoke with at jobo said that those solved a lot of problems people were having.

[Dirk Rösler]

Also, I'm using a unicolor base which does switch directions, but I don't know how many rotations it does each way.

I think just over one, with my 2500 series tank anyway. As I said, no trouble here.

Does anyone have a photo of those 2509N wedges? Can we make them ourselves, or an equivalent?

[Dave Krueger]

Here is a scan of one of the problem negatives. The "fogging" is on the right side and clearly lines up with the features of the reels.

http://www.kruegerphoto.com/badneg.jpg

I can see absolutely now way that light can be getting into tank lid, but I developed a couple sheets under subdued light making sure that the top of the tank was facing away from any light sources when it was on the motor base. In fact, I had the lights out in the darkroom so the only light was coming in through the doorway.

I developed two sheets independently that way and had no fogging in either case.

So, I started playing around with the lid of the tank which consists of two pieces. The inner piece screws into the larger piece and locks. Odd though it may be, the pieces can be locked together in three ways way, 90 degrees apart. No matter which way I put it together, I can't see any light leakage, but this is the only thing I can come up with as a cause for light leakage at the moment.

http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank1.jpg View of 2-piece lid
http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank2.jpg Second view of 2-piece lid
http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank3.jpg Locked in first position
http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank4.jpg Locked 90 degrees away
http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank5.jpg Locked another 90 dregrees away
http://www.kruegerphoto.com/tank6.jpg The entire tank and reels

In each of the three locking positions, the only apparent difference if the intervieve of the light trap between the two lid pieces.

The epic continues...

(By now I'm sure you all have entirely more infprmation than you would ever have asked for. LOL!)

-Dave