210mm Heliar or....

[Sheldon N]

I am considering adding a 210mm lens to my 4x5 kit for the purposes of portraiture. I already have a 90/150/240 combo of modern glass that I use for landscapes with my Wista DX. However, I'm finding that about half of the shooting I do in 4x5 ends up being portraiture.

My personal tastes in portraiture run towards the ultra shallow DOF, "mojo" sort of vibe. I've used the 150mm (APO Sironar S) wide open with some good results, but I find it a little on the wide angle side for close in work. My 240mm (Fuji A) is also great, but not fast enough for what I'm trying to do. Plus, I don't have the bellows to focus it close enough with my Wista.

So, I'm thinking 210mm as a reasonable focal length compromise, and looking for a faster lens, possibly f/4.5 if possible. The Heliar seems to come up as being the "best" portraiture lens short of a Cooke (which is well out of my price range). Fine folks such as Jim Galli and Chris Perez seem to swear by it.

I guess my question is what alternative lenses I should be looking at, esp for shooting wide open. Jim Galli had mentioned a 190mm Ektar f/4.5, and I've even considered a Commercial Congo 210mm tessar as a cheap option. Or, is the Heliar the way to go? (And anyone have a spare?)

Any guidance would be welcome!

[Renee Galang]

I've got a verito 7 1/4 F4 with hood and an adopter to screw on copal #3 It is a great lens and I tend to unscrew the front section to make the focal lenght 2x. I love this lens but if you are interested you can have it for a negotiated price.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Sheldon,

"Or, is the Heliar the way to go? (And anyone have a spare?)"

Yes, the Heliar is the way to go.(and yes, I do have a spare but it's not for sale.)

I have never used a 190/4.5 Ektar but can recommend the 190/4.5 Raptar in Alphax shutter. Easy to find, easy to CLA, easy on the bank book and a very nice look to it, variable by f/stop.

A 210/4.5 Heliar in barrel can have the rear threads re-cut to front-mount onto an Ilex #4 shutter or go whole-hog and have the cells fit into a Copal 3#. Very much easier and cheaper to find one in a Compound shutter.

Have fun with the hunt.

[Jan_6568]

I just would like to repeat what Paul Fitzgerlad wrote - Heliar 210 is just wonderfull and I am sure it would serve you well even though I prefer longer lenses for 4x5 portraiture.

Sometimes you can get them quite cheap on e-bay. I bought mine for less then $100. It was advertised as having haze, I took the risk and it turned out that it just needed little cleanig to be like new.

regards,

Jan

[Thomas Vaehrmann]

Hi,

the Heliar is a fine lens not only for portrait. But it isn't very soft nor very fast. I've some that are not for sale so I recomand it. The Dallmeyer Pentac is a Heliar-design too and offers more speed and less dof at f2.9. It's a barrel-lens mostly from Royal Air Force surplus and can get cheap. You can't stop it down much but if you want to use f22 or beyond then go for the Heliar.

[Ole Tjugen]

A 210mm Heliar should be a drop-in mount in a Compound III shutter, if you can find one.


Another alternative I came across by chance yesterday is the 200mm Soft-focus Congo (http://www.cosmonet.org/congo/sf200_e.htm).

[Sheldon N]

What is the performance/reliability of the older Compound shutters like? I think the expense of putting the Heliar into a Copal 3 would probably put it beyond what I'd want to spend...

[Ole Tjugen]

In my experience, the reliability of Compound shutters is nothing short of remarkable. I've used all sizes from III to V, and every single one (five different shutters) have been very precise. None of them have needed cleaning or adjusting yet.

[Steve Hamley]

IIRC, some of the early chrome ring Copals with the fine-tooth speed rings were 56mm and would be a direct fit for Compound #3 cells, possibly spacing required. Compounds are excellent shutters though, so if it isn't totaled, just get a CLA.

Steve

[Christopher Perez]

I just received three CLA'd Compound shutters of various sizes from Carol at Flutot's Camera Repair. The were shipped to her sticking and unreliable. They returned to me operating like new. And I have a fourth Compound shuttered lens (thanks Bob!) that did not require a CLA that is reliable as anything I've ever used.

I don't know what they would be like under extreme temperature conditions. But for what I use them for (between 40degrees F and 105degrees F) they seem quite reliable.

BTW, one of the shutters that Carol fixed for me is for a beautiful 21cm coated Heliar I have. It's now mounted up and ready to go. The other is for a 15cm uncoated Heliar. Fun times, eh? :)


What is the performance/reliability of the older Compound shutters like? I think the expense of putting the Heliar into a Copal 3 would probably put it beyond what I'd want to spend...

[Christopher Perez]

Compared with? I find f/4.5 plenty fast and very bright on the groundglass. But with depth of field a serious challenge at that aperture when doing portraits.

Certainly, for soft soft images, something like a Imagon or Fuji SF or one of the Galli Specials would do the trick.

Regarding Heliar "softness", my 21cm Heliar shows a very clear lack of contrast (perceived softness) when shot head to head against a modern multicoated 210mm plasmat, or even my ultra-sharp single coated 210mm Xenar f/6.1. In fact, the Heliar has visibly less contrast than the modern optics from f/4.5 through f/11 and maybe even f/16.

Alternatively, thinking of 210mm's as a portrait focal length could lead a person to an inexpensive Schneider Symmar Convertible f/5.6. The reason I bring this up is that ultimately it is final print quality that will win the day.

Some people find it easy to start with something nice and contrasty and then find a pleasing way to mute the tones. Other folks like starting with a less contrasty portrait. I think you can end up with what you are looking for by taking either approach. You'd just need to "work at it" a bit.

One last monkey wrench in your portrait plans: A friend doesn't like 210mm for portraits. He say's it's too flat. He likes 180mm instead. He says it's a nice tradeoff between the "roundness" of 150mm and the "flatness" of 210mm. YMMWV. :)




...the Heliar is a fine lens not only for portrait. But it isn't very soft nor very fast...

[Sheldon N]

So was there ever a Heliar made in the 180-190mm range?

[Christopher Perez]

Yes. 18cm Heliars were built.

If you really want to go nuts, get one each 15cm, 18cm, 21cm, 24cm, and 30cm. There were, of course, other focal lengths made. But we're talking fun lenses in shutters that work on 4x5... and have plenty of "voodoo". :) :)


So was there ever a Heliar made in the 180-190mm range?

[Ole Tjugen]

Even the 12cm on my 6.5x9 Bergheil can be used on 4x5" - the corners go soft, but sometimes that can be used to advantage.

[Arne Croell]

So was there ever a Heliar made in the 180-190mm range?
Yes, as Christopher said. It came in a Compur 2 shutter. The range he quotes are the Heliars that were available coated and in shutter after WWII. There were 3 more available only in barrel (360, 420 and 480mm) and coated, plus the Universal-Heliars. The uncoated pre-WWII line of Heliars had even more models and included an f/3.5 series.

[Sanders McNew]

So was there ever a Heliar made in the 180-190mm range?

I have an early (serial no. 109605) uncoated 7-inch f/4.5 Heliar set in a barrel and mounted on a 3x4 Graflex D lensboard. Here's a scan from a photo shot with the lens:

http://www.pbase.com/sandersm/image/28572673

I'm not shooting in medium format any more. If someone needs this lens, drop me a note and make me an offer.

Sanders McNew
sanders@mcnew.net

[Sheldon N]

The more I think about this, the more I'm begining to believe that it may be a little bit of a strain on my poor Wista to mount a lens large/long enough to do what I want. I'm considering adding an 8x10 with a packard shutter to use for portaiture, especially tempting since I've got the possibility of acquiring a 14" f/4.5 Heliar in barrel for $130.

Hmmm, decisions, decisions. Maybe I could stick the Heliar and Packard on a cheapo 4x5 monorail...

[Ole Tjugen]

Hmmm, decisions, decisions. Maybe I could stick the Heliar and Packard on a cheapo 4x5 monorail...

My solution to the same quandary was to buy a pre-anniversary Speed Graphic with working shutter. It cost only $56, since there was no lens.

By a slight stroke of luck I had an iris lensmount, which barely fit on the lensboard. So now that camera can use any barrel lens uo to about 280mm focal length and 6cm diameter.

I also happened to have a box full of lensboards, most of which are now redundant.