home made Puyo-Pulligny lens

[Jan_6568]

Inspired by another thread here I am going to make a home made "replica" of Puyo-Pulligny The Adjustable Landscape Lens. I was looking for this lens for more then a year I could not find it.
I found some information on the web and in old books. Basically the lens is composed of two elements: plano-concave and plano-convex with identical focal length (10cm and -10 cm). The distance you set between the elements gives you desired focal length. My sources indicated that the lens had two diaphragms - front and rear. However, it does not say where the diaphragms should be placed. Also I have no idea why the lens needs two of them. I wonder, may be some of you, lens experts, could clarify that to me.

Regards,

Jan

[Ernest Purdum]

I can't tell you very much. All the Puligny-Puyo items are very uncommon. Only the designs were by the two named. Actual manufacture was by well known french makers.

The designers apparently liked the soft focus effects caused by the use of unachromatized lenses. Today, these would be hard to reproduce because of the color sensitivities of modern films, though I suppose it could be done after considerable experimentation with heavy filtration. Later soft focus designs usually aim for the desired results by use of spherical, rather than chromatic, aberration.

[Jan_6568]

According to one of my sources, Fotografika book by Jan Bulhak written in 1930thies this design used both chromatic and spherical aberrations to create soft focus effect. He gives few examples of images taken with this lens using panchromatic films (wonderfull!), my guess is that spectral sensitivity should be similar to modern films - please, correct me if I am wrong. What kind of filtration you mean? Would the aim be to mimic ortochromatic materials of the era?
BTW, I found and english translation of Puyo and Demachy book Sources of modern photography at CCP library catalog here in Tucson. It is very likely that the lens design is discussed in the book.


Jan

[Sven Schroder]

Hi

I was outbid on one, back in 04. The seller posted a colour polaroid made with it, of some peonies it was nice and soft with good colour (for what it is ). The rear iris was just behind the rear element to control the size of image circle (to stop bellows flare).
The lens had the other iris in the middle of the barrel as you would expect. Anyway I'll try and digout the original listing for more details, as I am working from memory here.

Hope this helps

Sven

[Jan_6568]

Anyway I'll try and digout the original listing for more details, as I am working from memory here.


Thank you, Steven - it helped a lot. I am going to mout the lens in Ilex #4 shutter so I think I can use the shutter's iris as a rear one, I will order a front iris only then. It would also be very helpful if I could see the lens on the original listing. Just courious - do you remember the price it was sold for? I saw one Puyo-Pulligny lens some few moths ago on e-bay live auction. It looked more like thier portrait design then Adjustable Landscape Lens but the seller knew nothing about the lens. It was sold for some $800, I guess.

regards,

Jan

[Sven Schroder]

Hi

I've found the post, saved when it was newly listed (so no sale price) I'll email the seller about using his pics, I must have found more info on the net, as the listing
does not contain all I remember.

Also a similar lens made by Dallmeyer "The Dallmeyer-Bergheim Soft focus Lens" from a 30's catalogue "This Lens composed of two simple lenses (the front positive and the back negative), the distance between which is variable, thus providing considerable latitude in focal length. The amount of spherical and cromatic abberation, due to the single uncorrected lenses, results in a certain amount of diffusion of focus, which produces the softness and delicacy aimed at by artistic workers."

Sven

[Jan_6568]

Hi Sven,
thank you very much, I really appreciate your help. To quote my favorite Hercules Poirot: "you have been most helpfull" :). I am trying to design the barrel and one thing I am not sure about is where exactly to place the iris. I would tend to place it exactly in the same distance to both optical elements (not sure about that, this is my guess), but if the distance between the elements is to be variable then the iris should be mounted in a fixed distance to one of the elements and variable distance to the other one. Otherwise the barrel would be very complicated. May be you have an idea which element to choose?
At the moment I am not sure how to design barrel movements. I am thinking of two options: helicoid barrel, and the one in which you can unscrew optical elements and instert distance rings in between. The problem I see with helicoid design is that I would like to keep the rear element as close to the shutter leaves as possible but with helicoid barrel it is not so easy. I can have a machinist to make the metalwork for me quite cheap. What do you think?

kind regards,

Jan

[Ole Tjugen]

... The problem I see with helicoid design is that I would like to keep the rear element as close to the shutter leaves as possible but with helicoid barrel it is not so easy. ...

That at least is easy: Look at an old folding MF camera with front cell focussing. That's what you'll be making - a lens with the aperture just in front of the rear element, and where the front element moves on a helicoid.

[Jan_6568]

Ole, it sounds like a good idea, thank you.

Jan

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Jan,

Try http://www.surplusshed.com and search for B1016 and B1017. Might not be perfect but an easy and cheap start.

Good luck with it.

[Jan_6568]

Try http://www.surplusshed.com and search for B1016 and B1017. Might not be perfect but an easy and cheap start.

Good luck with it.

Thank you Paul,
I ordered three other lenses from Surplus Shed. The plano-concave of -100 mm FL and two plano-convex 100 and 101 mm FL. The 101 one is coated. They aslo should have the same diameter and mine do not have. I think I could just use a fixed stop in front of the front element, which is wider few mm. I also orderd an iris from them. The original design calls for 100 and -100 elements, I am not sure if 1mm makes a difference, I will try both combinations and probably it would be nice to have a coated lens.
I think I will make some temp. housing for the lens made of PVC tubes, take few test images and if I like the results I will order nice, custom made metal helicoid barrel.

kind regards,

Jan

[anachromatic]

Hello Jan,
I don't know very well how this forum works and I'm not a great english speaker but I'm very interested in old lenses since several years, specially on soft-focus lenses.
I have an original Puyo lens ("Trousse Anachromatic et d'Atelier Cnt. Puyó") that I bought seven years ago in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I have some photographs taken with this lens. It's very difficult to use; has a lot of scales and marks. To understand something about this beautifull lens, I had to buy an interesting book: "Objectifs d'Artiste" by Leclerc De Pulligny and Constant E. Puyo.(french edition). I have seen three more Puyó lenses: one in Argentina, one in Spain and other in Deutschland.
I have an other lens with a similar construction: "Dallmeyer Berheim Soft Focus" that I didn't use yet.
Please, let me know if there is something that I can do to help you. I could send you pics of the lens in its box, or scans of the photograps that I taked with it...I don't know...let me know.
Sorry for my bad english! I think worst than Sitting Bull english! Ja, ja, ja.......
Kind regards.

[Jan_6568]

Hi Anachromatic,

thank you very much for your post. I sent you priveate message but I wonder if you received it as the forum was down for some time. I am sending it again.

regards,

Jan

[Pronier Jean Claude]

Near from Home un Var department (south of france) I discovered in antique dealer shop a huge format studio camera in pretty good conditions and as mounted lens a superb Puyo Pulligny very very nice. But the guy was not aware about what he was selling and asked a foolish price, so I left the shop.
Next days I'll go back to see if the camera is again proposed, with the lens.

[Jan_6568]

Dear Jean Calude,

please let me know what happened next. What kind of lens it was? A portrait one or landscape one?
regards,
Jan

[Pronier Jean Claude]

I'm just coming back from the antique shop and they said that the 30cmx40 huge walnut studio camera, with the nice adjustable landscape lens mounted in front of a red bellow has been sold in june on ebay. The guy said that the camera was priced 5000$ ! happy and rich buyer!

[Jan_6568]

Thank you very much for information. I am working on my "replica" now, will post few test images when I have some.

Jan

[anachromatic]

Hello Jan,
Sorry for my delay post, but I was outside my home some days. I sent you 4 emails with a little explain and some images of my Trousse Anachromatique Puyo and the photographs that I made with it. Also I include an scan of the book by Pulligny and Puyo where you can see the two posibilities of the lens: Adjustable Landscape and Tele anachromatique(Portrait)and how this lens is building. Please, post some of this images for the forum people because I don't know how make it.(I'm a terrible digital ignorant!!!).
As I promised in the emails, in october will be again at home, and I will send you more info and pics of the other adjustables lenses that I have: Dallmeyer Soft Focus Bergheim and "The Adjustable" of C.C.Allen(the first zoom in the history!!).
Enjoy the pics and all the best with your project!!!
Kind regards for alls.....

Anachromatique.

[Sven Schroder]

Hi Jan

Checkout ebay Item 250025018134 , another related lens and from the same seller as the original I mentioned in my post above, and guess what? I've been busy, so I will try and post some of the pics from the first auction on Monday (UK pm).

Regards

Sven

[anachromatic]

Hello Jan,
I sent you 4 emails with a little explain and some images of my Trousse Anachromatique Puyo and the photographs that I made with it. Also I include an scan of the book by Pulligny and Puyo where you can see the two posibilities of the lens: Adjustable Landscape and Tele anachromatique(Portrait)and how this lens is building. Please, post some of this images for the forum people because I don't know how make it.(I'm a terrible digital ignorant!!!).
.....Enjoy the pics and all the best with your project!!!
Kind regards for alls.....

Anachromatique.

It's only for to try........
Best regards.

anachromatique.

[Jack Reisland]

Thank you very much for information. I am working on my "replica" now, will post few test images when I have some.

Jan
Please do keep us posted. I for one am following your project with great interest.

Jack R.

[Jan_6568]

I am attaching here the images Achromatique sent me by e-mail. He asked me to post tehm to the forum. I think it is a very interesting material. The pictures show the lens itself (this is not The Adjustable Landscape Lens but in one setup it has the same design) and a scan from Puyo book showing the design.
I will post a sample from my project lens soon, however it is still to soft to my taste, I think it needs to stop down.

Jan

[Jan_6568]

Please do keep us posted. I for one am following your project with great interest.

Jack R.

Hi folks,
here is a little update on my project. The lens is currenly in a beta stage, it seems to me it performs not too bad. I thought it was too soft but looking at the test prints few days after I printed them I tend to say it is all right. At the moment, as you see, it has a nice plumbing tubes housing and is "mounted" in a #4 shutter. I orderd custom metal housing for the lens few days ago. This particular design changes it's focal length with the distance between elements. I was thinking of helicoid barrel but after talking to a machinist I decided to have a set of distance rings, which I can screw in between the optical elements. This housing design will give me the focal length from about 200mm up to 500mm. It will also incorporate an iris I got from surplus shed. I am lucky to have this barrel for some $80, plus $10 for lenses, less then $20 for an iris - not too expensive. And the lens is going to share it's shutter with my 400 mm Busch Bis-Telar.
I am uploading first test image samples, I am not very good at scanning, as you can note, and the images are fare from what Achromatic was kind to share, but they give the impression of how the lens works. Note the hallo effect on close-ups. On the real print it gives kind of nice mood.

[Sven Schroder]

Hi Jan

Excellent results, its raining which changed my plans (testing some new to me vintage wide-angles on 10x8, a 135mm and 200mm berthiot perigraphe both cover 110 degrees.) So I will attach Chris Davis's images of the first example I was outbid on back in 04, he recently sold another similar lens mentioned above it went for more than I could afford (his Ebay id is traveller61 and often has some intresting lenses) . You're results are real inspiration thanks for sharing them.

Regards

Sven

[Jan_6568]

Hi Sven,
thank you for warm words on my project lens. I do not think I would be able to exactly replicate The Adjustable with my lens but it ia all right with me.
Good luck with your new berthiot perigraphes.

Jan

[Jan_6568]

And if course thank you for up-loading the images. It seems that The Adjustable was made by at least two makers.

Jan

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Jan,

Did you notice any focus shift between visual focus and film focus? A 2 element lens design shouldn't be color-corrected.

Nice image, I like the 'glow' to it.

Thanks

[Jan_6568]

Did you notice any focus shift between visual focus and film focus?Thanks
Paul,
yes, indeed, there is about 4% bellows draw focus shift.

cheers,

Jan

[Jack Reisland]

Hello Jan,

Will you please post pictures of your finished lens when you get the metal housing done? I am also curious, how do you actually use the lens, what with a focal length adjustment, two irises, and a 4% bellows draw focus shift? Can you run through an example of the steps for shooting a photo?

Regards, Jack

[Will]

Hi Jan,

More photo of your lens project please?



Will

[Jan_6568]

Jack and Will,

I have not received the metal barrel so far. I hope to have it in one or two weeks. A machinist who is making the barrel for me is not very fast and in addition he is in Poland while I am in US. He also has this habit to send everything I order from him by registered mail which takes ages to arrive from Poland to Tucson, AZ where I live. On the other hand he is very good, I think, and has very reasonable prices.

How do I use the lens? Well, this is almost as easy as with any LF lens. After you focus you need to measure the distance from the nodal point to the ground glass and adjust the focus by reducing the distance by 4%. You do not need to very precise: first of all the lens is not very fast (about f11 fully open with current FL) so it gives quite a lot of DOF, second the lens is not very sharp and the difference between "in focus" and "almost in focus" is pretty subtle. Also, you do not need to use a fucusing aid.

I now have much more information on the design and on the original lens. I got the book by Puyo and de Pulligny with the description of the lens. I am writing a short article about this lens for my web site. I will also include some pictures. I will post here when the article is ready.

cheers,

Jan

[Jack Reisland]

Thanks for the information. I am looking forward to your article. In the operation of the lens, where do the two diaphram adjustments come in?

Regards, Jack R.

[Will]

Jack and Will,

I have not received the metal barrel so far. I hope to have it in one or two weeks. A machinist who is making the barrel for me is not very fast and in addition he is in Poland while I am in US. He also has this habit to send everything I order from him by registered mail which takes ages to arrive from Poland to Tucson, AZ where I live. On the other hand he is very good, I think, and has very reasonable prices.

How do I use the lens? Well, this is almost as easy as with any LF lens. After you focus you need to measure the distance from the nodal point to the ground glass and adjust the focus by reducing the distance by 4%. You do not need to very precise: first of all the lens is not very fast (about f11 fully open with current FL) so it gives quite a lot of DOF, second the lens is not very sharp and the difference between "in focus" and "almost in focus" is pretty subtle. Also, you do not need to use a fucusing aid.

I now have much more information on the design and on the original lens. I got the book by Puyo and de Pulligny with the description of the lens. I am writing a short article about this lens for my web site. I will also include some pictures. I will post here when the article is ready.

cheers,

Jan

Dear Jan,

How do you determint the FL for the PP Lens? Do you use this formula?

1/F = 1/f1 + 1/f2 - D / (f1*f2)

How about the Aperture for the lens PP lens, any formula?

Anyway, looking forward to see your lens in its final form.

Cheers




Will

[Jan_6568]

I apologize for the delay, I did not follow the thread. I just got the original The Adjustable in pristine shape (very happy!) I also received my barrel so I will be able to make a direct comparison. The barrel came incomplete and I can not mount the iris and also I have a limited range of FL now but at least it works and looks quite neat.

Jack,
the front iris is place some 4-5 mm in front of the front element. The rear iris is places 4-5 mm behind the rear element. As the lens is a zoom it means it has a variable aperture. For this reason the markings on the aperture adjustment rings do not give absolute values but only the aperture diameter. One has to have a table which links the actual FL (or bellows extension as there is no FL scale on the lens) with aperture diameter and actual apertuare value. According to the Puyo-de Pulligny book, which I got by interlibrary loan, the front iris serves to adjust the image rendering primariliy and also DOF, the rear iris is only to minimize the lens flare.
When I was designing my barrel I was not aware of all above and I decided to place the iris in between the elements, just in front of the rear element.

Will,
According to the Puyo-de Pulligny book FL is determined as
F=(f1*f2)/D
where F - FL of the entire lens
f1 - FL of the front element
f2 - FL of the rear element
D - distance between nodal points of the elements

there is also another formula, which links FL with bellows extension, this is a more general formula for telephoto design:
F=f1+((f1/f2)*b)
where b - distance from the rear element to the ground glass making sharp image. In case of The Adjustable f1/f2 = 1

The aperture is determined as
A=phi/FL
where A - aperturfe
phi - diameter of the elements

hope it helps. As you are asking such technical detailes I am guessing you are also tempted to build such lens. If so - let me know, I can send you the scans of PP book.

Jan

[Jan_6568]

Will,
one more thing:
P-P claim that for a landscape lens the maximum aperture shuld be 2/F.

Jan

[Ernest Purdum]

For whatever it's worth, the rather similar Dallmeyer-Bergheim lens also had an iris in front of all the glass. No rear diaphragm, though.

[Steve H]

Interesting Stuff ! Looks great; I cannot wait to get the hell home to finish up my DIY lens project...Hopefully by the end of next Month I should be back home, and machining some metal :D

Regards,

[Jan_6568]

For whatever it's worth, the rather similar Dallmeyer-Bergheim lens also had an iris in front of all the glass. No rear diaphragm, though.

Ernest,
could you tell more about Dallmeyer-Bergheim?

Jan

[Ernest Purdum]

Jan, a photographer named Bergheim persuaded Dallmeyer to build a kind of variable power telephoto lens just for portrait use. This was in 1893, only two years after Dallmeyer (and Miethe, individually) had originated the telephoto. The Dallmeyer-Bergheim was a very basic lens: a plano-convex in front, a negative meniscus in back, an itis diaphragm way out in front and a rack and pinion to adjust the separation. Unlike most portrait lenses, the apertures available were small. Kingslake speaks of f9 to f15. Apparently these are the maximum apertures at the shortest and longest focal lengths.

[Jan_6568]

Thank you, Ernest
Jan

[Jan_6568]

If someone is interested on how the story developed I uploaded a little write-up to my web page. www.en.janbrzeski.net shoud work to get you the English version of the web site if not click on English version and then on Writing section.

cheers,

Jan

[Jan_6568]

www.en.janbrzeski.net shoud work to get you the English version of the web site

Does not work for the reason I do not know - but www.janbrzeski.net/en works

cheers,

Jan

[Will]

I apologize for the delay, I did not follow the thread. I just got the original The Adjustable in pristine shape (very happy!) I also received my barrel so I will be able to make a direct comparison. The barrel came incomplete and I can not mount the iris and also I have a limited range of FL now but at least it works and looks quite neat.

Jack,
the front iris is place some 4-5 mm in front of the front element. The rear iris is places 4-5 mm behind the rear element. As the lens is a zoom it means it has a variable aperture. For this reason the markings on the aperture adjustment rings do not give absolute values but only the aperture diameter. One has to have a table which links the actual FL (or bellows extension as there is no FL scale on the lens) with aperture diameter and actual apertuare value. According to the Puyo-de Pulligny book, which I got by interlibrary loan, the front iris serves to adjust the image rendering primariliy and also DOF, the rear iris is only to minimize the lens flare.
When I was designing my barrel I was not aware of all above and I decided to place the iris in between the elements, just in front of the rear element.

Will,
According to the Puyo-de Pulligny book FL is determined as
F=(f1*f2)/D
where F - FL of the entire lens
f1 - FL of the front element
f2 - FL of the rear element
D - distance between nodal points of the elements

there is also another formula, which links FL with bellows extension, this is a more general formula for telephoto design:
F=f1+((f1/f2)*b)
where b - distance from the rear element to the ground glass making sharp image. In case of The Adjustable f1/f2 = 1

The aperture is determined as
A=phi/FL
where A - aperturfe
phi - diameter of the elements

hope it helps. As you are asking such technical detailes I am guessing you are also tempted to build such lens. If so - let me know, I can send you the scans of PP book.

Jan


Dear Jan,

Thanks a lot for the info. Very busy with work and life in general, hope to get back into this after the coming chinese new year.

Would love to get my hands on the PP book, please send them to willleung@hotmail.com

Went to your website, I think anyone interested in DIY should have a look. Would like to ask,

1.) How do you hold the waterhouse stop? Is it a self screw-in or there is a locking ring for the waterhouse stop?

2.) Regarding the aperture with the waterhouse stop, do you to use the formula of A = FL/opening (of the waterhouse stop)??

Thanks a lot.




Will