Which flash for Handheld LF 4x5"?

[Patrik Roseen]

Hello, after shooting B&W handheld with my super technika I have realised the challenge of using low speed film under certain circumstances...i.e. impossible to stop down without getting too long exposure times. So I am thinking of using a flash, both for indoor and outdoor.

Do you have suggestions for which flash I should look for and which features that are particularly good to have? (minimum strength, computer/aperture, ...)

Any experience you can share will be very much appreciated.

Kind regards, Patrik.

[Frank Petronio]

It's really a matter of what aperture you need to shoot at, whether it is to "hold focus" or to achieve seperation between the subject and background or for creative effect.

I can get f/8 with a simple Vivitar 283 for medium distance photos. But if you don't think you can accurately focus and hold for f/8 you may want to stop down to f/16 - requiring more power.

I think a lot of the old time press photographers shot around f/16 -f/22 when they could.

Once you determine which aperture you want to shoot at, then the rest becomes an equation of ISO, distance, etc.

A cheap 35mm shoe mount flash will give you f/8 all day at ISO 400 and medium dsistances.

A battery powered Lumedyne or Quantum Q Flash will have the power to give you f/16 all day under the same conditions.

The handle mounted Metzs sort of fall inbetween. The larger Metzs can be very powerful.

The auto flash features on the modern flashes work really well. Plus there is a nice range of brackets and light modifiers.

The latest PDN magazine has a good article about how Philip Borges uses battery flashes and modifiers for his Tibetan portraits - he is using digital now but it is all relevant.

[Ed Richards]

I got a used handle mount Metz, the oldest model with autoflash capablity. I think it was about $150 in great shape from KEH. The bracket attaches perfectly to the tripod socket on the bed of the Technika and clears the Technika grip. I have done some shooting with it and Tmax 400 and it works great.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I usually use a Norman 200C setup myself, but all the options that Frank mentions are workable. Sometimes I'll use a small Metz flash, if I only need fill or if a wider aperture is all I need.

With the Technika I mount the flash on a simple Norman bracket and remove the Linhof ergonomic grip. I've drilled an extra hole at the flash end of the bracket so I can mount the flash head right over the lens axis.

[Patrik Roseen]

It's really a matter of what aperture you need to shoot at, whether it is to "hold focus" or to achieve seperation between the subject and background or for creative effect. ...

...I think a lot of the old time press photographers shot around f/16 -f/22 when they could.

...The handle mounted Metzs sort of fall inbetween. The larger Metzs can be very powerful.


Frank,
I use an angulon 6.8/90mm which needs stopping down to get sharp corners, at f/16 and say a distance of 5 meters would mean a flash of about strength 80 using ISO100 film and about strength 40 with ISO400 (am I right?)
For my Symmar 150mm I could probably use f/8-f/11 and a flash of 80 would give me a range of up to 10 meters with ISO 100 and 20 meters with ISO 400.

There seem to be alot of Metz 45ct's out there...this is nearly half of what I calculated above...am I pushing it too far with 80..should I be happy enough with 45?


I got a used handle mount Metz, the oldest model with autoflash capablity. I think it was about $150 in great shape from KEH. The bracket attaches perfectly to the tripod socket on the bed of the Technika and clears the Technika grip. I have done some shooting with it and Tmax 400 and it works great.

Ed, which strength is your Metz flash and what distance do you use it for?


I usually use a Norman 200C setup myself,...

David, What is the 'Norman 200 C setup'...how strong is it and which film speed do you use?

[Frank Petronio]

Well, the soft corners of the Angulon can actually be effective in your photos, at least if your subject is near the center.

In general, I think using a smaller flash and maybe a combination of longer ambiant exposure is a very nice way to work, as a too powerful and overpowering flash tends to make everything look like a point & shoot amatuer photo on sterioids.

Another fun flash to consider is the ring flash type set-ups used by some fashion photographers. There are a lot of home made adaptations used by fashion show type photographers that acheive something nicer than the usuall grip and grin type lighting.

[David A. Goldfarb]

David, What is the 'Norman 200 C setup'...how strong is it and which film speed do you use?

A Norman 200C is a 200 Watt-second portable battery pack that uses a barebulb flash head with interchangeable reflectors, like the Quantum or Lumedyne systems. It's an all manual system, but I also have an old GVI Vari-strobe head that works with the Norman pack, which can do auto flash and auto fill. I believe that GVI was the precursor to Quantum, since the technical info for GVI can be found at the Quantum website.

These shots were all done with the 200C, GVI on auto, plain 5" reflector, Symmar 210/5.6 convertible at f:8, except for the scene in front of "Le Pescadou," which was at f:5.6. I was shooting Efke PL100 at EI 200, developed in Acufine (click the image to cycle through about a half dozen shots).--

http://www.echonyc.com/~goldfarb/halloween/

f:8 was an aesthetic choice in this case, f:5.6 because I was shooting from across a 5-lane street. At normal portrait distances, I can get f:16 or more, depending on which reflector or diffuser I'm using. There is a tele reflector that will get another 1-2 stops over the standard reflector for use with long lenses, and they make a reflector with an opal glass diffuser, or you can use a 12x16" softbox.

Norman makes a 400 W-s unit as well, which gets you another stop if you need it.

Info here--

http://www.photo-control.com/

[Ed Richards]

I think my Metz is about 120, which gives me F16 out to about 15 feet with ASA 400. It might be 160. I am not trying to light trains.:-)

http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/la/mardi-gras/2006/apollo/000470.jpg

http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/la/mardi-gras/2006/apollo/000484.jpg

Look at the detail in the stands in the background, which were very poorly lit.

[Patrik Roseen]

David, thanks alot for your information ...that Norman setup is really tempting from what I see in your photographs. Really Nice - The lighting seems very delicate and soft and spreads evenly - not like most flash which tends to be more 'snapshot' like as Frank puts it.

David, What is the reason to shoot Efke PL100 at ISO200, in normal situations I need to shoot it at ISO50 ... Is this a trick to avoid those really strong highlights??

Ed, thanks for coming back to me. Since you are using 'feet' I guess 120 (or 160) corresponds to a GN of 40 (or 50) something in meters.
Great photos too, Ed...Looks like this GN would be strong enough.

Ed, Do you have any experience from using this flash as a 'filler' in daylight, say late afternoons?

[Ralph Barker]

The mechanics of using electronic flash for fill with an LF camera is the same as with smaller formats. Use the f-stop to adjust the flash unit's contribution to the exposure (making corresponding adjustments to shutter speed for the ambient light's contribution), or use the flash unit's compensation adjustment if in "auto" mode on the flash. The only difference might be that (with leaf shutters) one isn't limited by the sync speed of focal plane shutters, as with most smaller formats.

[Ed Richards]

> Ed, Do you have any experience from using this flash as a 'filler' in daylight, say late afternoons?

What Ralph said. I have used a lot of fill with smaller formats, but not with the 4x5 yet. No particular reason, just have not gotten around to it. I got the flash to shoot some Mardi Gras Balls this spring, but all the rest of my shooting time has been spent on Katrina damage. I will get back to people again soon, I hope.

[Frank Petronio]

A Polaroid or digital helps you fine tune the mix of ambient and fill flash. It can be a very nice technique but usually you need a lot of flash power to use it in bright sun.

If you look at a popular magazine like Sports Illustrated you see it used alot when photographers need to shoot a portrait in Noon-day sun. But they also have to use larger strobe packs to generate enough power to outdo the sunlight. With a battery handle mount flash you maybe limited to shooting during lower light situations (such as against a sunset).

[Ed Richards]

You only need a lot of power to overpower the sun. If you are just trying to fill the shadows and preserve the ambient light feel, it takes a lot less power, esp. with something like Tmax 400 with its wide latitude. Set the auto to a couple of stops larger that the shooting aperature and it should work just fine. This is for candid, handheld, of course. If you are doing formal shots, then you can start metering the flash and using manual settings to get it right.

[Gordon Moat]

Rather than trying to overpower the sun, you could use reflectors to re-direct the illumination. A flash is more for a smaller concentrated area in which you want to knock down shadows a bit. In situations where power sources are tough to arrange beyond using batteries, having many different reflectors, clamps, and holding gear can make life easier.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio

[David A. Goldfarb]

David, thanks alot for your information ...that Norman setup is really tempting from what I see in your photographs. Really Nice - The lighting seems very delicate and soft and spreads evenly - not like most flash which tends to be more 'snapshot' like as Frank puts it.

David, What is the reason to shoot Efke PL100 at ISO200, in normal situations I need to shoot it at ISO50 ... Is this a trick to avoid those really strong highlights??

With Acufine, you can get an honest EI 200 with PL100. For the Halloween shots, I was looking for the Weegee look, and I think that Efke/Acufine at 200 has that kind of tonality and texture.

Normally, I rate Efke PL100 at EI 50 in ABC pyro.

[Patrik Roseen]

Thanks to you I hope to do some nice LF handheld+flash this weekend.
I will experiment with the combination of both flash and ambient.
I do have an Osram VS340 (GN=34) which has auto apertures f/4 and f/8, so getting f/16 would be a matter of reducing the ISO setting on the flash I guess. (I never needed to go this low with my small format before.)

If I add an orange/redfilter there will certainly be some calculations to be worked out. For plain flash in auto-mode it means reducing the ISO setting even more as I normally do with my Spotmeter (ISO100 becomes ISO12 for redfilter).

Anyone using two auto-flashes? I quickly thought about it but have not yet worked out how they would interfere/relate to each other. Assuming they were perfectly synched I guess they together would produce the same amount of light as a single one...So how do you get them to add up? Ahh, I'm getting dizzy, better not think too much about it ;-)

David, Thanks for the info about EfkePL100 and Acufine giving EI200! I will try it in the future.

(BTW, I invested in a used Nissin 5000GT (very similar to the Metz Mecablitz handheld) and will start to read more about the Norman 200C setup.)

[Dan Fromm]

Um, er, ah, Patrik, guide number arithmetic will get you, and fast.

Remember two things. Flash guide numbers are often over-rated by nearly one stop. The most powerful portable electronic flash available is, I think and please correct me if I'm mistaken, the Metz CT-70. Its GN is 70, ISO 100, meters.

So if you had a CT-70, at 5 m with ISO 100 film you could shoot at f/14 with a CT-70 at full power. ISO 50 film is a stop slower, ISO 200 is a stop faster. Do the arithmetic to see if it will do what you want it to. Remember that in use the flash is probably ~ 0.5 stop down from rated output.

The amount of light an autoflash puts out depends on the setting, not on the speed of the film you're using. If, e.g., the autoflash's little calculator tells you to use f/4 with ISO 100 film at "low", it will tell you to use f/8 with ISO 400 film at "low." ISO 400 is two stops faster than ISO 100, f/8 is two stops dimmer than f/4. And so on.

Re claimed and actual power, my Minolta Flash Meter says that my three Vivitar 283s (claimed GN 120, ISO 100, feet) at full output are roughly 1/2 stop down from claimed output. My Agfa 643CS (claimed GN 64, ISO 100, meters) at full power is 2/3 stop down from claimed.

About using two autoflashes. Not a good idea. But two autoflashes run on manual are one stop brighter than one autoflash run on manual. Four are one stop brighter than two. And so on. Adding flashes isn't always a good idea.

Have you considered using flash bulbs?

Cheers,

Dan