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SAShruby
8-Aug-2006, 07:51
Efke PL25 or JandC Pro 100 in Pyrocat-HD - Test Results

Yesterday I spent all afternoon testing to be very strange JandC Pro 100 in Pyrocat-HD (I suspect it is Efke PL25). I did five tests. From package identified as JandC Pro 100 (film has single U notch) I took two 8x10 sheets and cut them in total darkness to eight 4x5 sheets. Film was purchased in May 2005, had been in a freezer most of the time, during winter, when I moved to my new house was resting for couple months in temperatures between -20/+15 degrees Celsius.

Tests have been exposed through Deardorff V8 Camera in a specially constructed film holder it can hold one 4x5 sheet film and on top of the film was laid Stouffer 21-step wedge. I used Fuji Fujinon 6.3/360mm lens set at F8. Camera was focused on a Kodak grey card with magnification 1:1. Meter I used was Sekonic L-558Cine. Illumination of the grey card was within 0.3 stops. Measurement had been done on X-rite 361T in UV mode.

Here are the readings and development procedure by tests: Graphs will be posted tonite…

TEST1
Exposure ½ @ f8, ISO100 (Indicated)

Development Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (500ml used)
8 min, 70F
Trays, 5 sec. agitation every 30 sec.
Stop bath Water Bath
1 min.
Fixer TF-4 alkaline fixer
4 min.
Wash ½ hour

Result: Step 4 showed B+F @ .114. Oops!!! I forgot to compensate for magnification!!!


TEST2
Exposure 2sec @ f8, ISO100 (Indicated by meter, light changed)
1:1 Magnification compensation: 8sec @ f8 (2 stops)
Reciprocity compensation 32sec @ f8 (2 stops) (according JandC comp chart)

Development Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (500ml used)
8 min, 70F
Trays, 5 sec. agitation every 30 sec.
Stop bath Water Bath
1 min.
Fixer TF-4 alkaline fixer
4 min.
Wash ½ hour

Result: Step 11 showed B+F @ .114. This can’t be right. I need to increase recip. comp more!!! And try exposing it at ISO 50


TEST3
Exposure 4sec @ f8, ISO50 (Indicated by meter)
1:1 Magnification compensation: 16sec @ f8 (2 stops)
Reciprocity compensation 2min @ f8 (4 stops)

Development Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (500ml used)
8 min, 70F
Trays, 5 sec. agitation every 30 sec.
Stop bath Water Bath
1 min.
Fixer TF-4 alkaline fixer
4 min.
Wash ½ hour

Result: Step 1 showed .925. This can’t be right. What is going on!!! Even more compensation? Even lower ISO?



TEST4
Exposure 8sec @ f8, ISO25 (Indicated by meter)
1:1 Magnification compensation: 32sec @ f8 (2 stops)
Reciprocity compensation 16min @ f8 (5 stops)!!!

Development Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (500ml used)
8 min, 70F
Trays, 5 sec. agitation every 30 sec.
Stop bath Water Bath
1 min.
Fixer TF-4 alkaline fixer
4 min.
Wash ½ hour

Result: Step 1 showed 1.721. Step 17 B+F @ .114 Again Even lower ISO? Compensation is 5 stops!!! OK one more



TEST5
Exposure 8sec @ f8, ISO25 (Indicated by meter)
1:1 Magnification compensation: 32sec @ f8 (2 stops)
Reciprocity compensation 64min @ f8 (7 stops)!!!!!!!!

Development Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (500ml used)
8 min, 70F
Trays, 5 sec. agitation every 30 sec.
Stop bath Water Bath
1 min.
Fixer TF-4 alkaline fixer
4 min.
Wash ½ hour

Result: Finally!!! Step 1 – 2.71, CI 1.47….But I still have room in get higher density!!! One stop more!!! It came out contra sty. I need to lower CI…so I will decrease exposure time to 6 minutes.



So, as you can see claiming to be JandC Pro 100 showed acceptable results exposed according to technical specs maybe at ISO 6.25 with 4 stops recip compensation or ISO12.5 at 5 stops reciprocity. Film has very big tow as well. You will see it tonite when I post charts. I am counting in exposure to temperature changes for 1-2 stops. Am I missing something?

I don’t know, maybe I am wrong in my computations but I do not think I’ve got JandC Pro 100. I think I have Efke PL25

tim atherton
8-Aug-2006, 08:15
Hmmm - I suppose it's possible (there have been a couple of cases of something similar eg http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28173&highlight=efke+j%26c )

Also, for Efke 25 and 100 (not J&C 100) I use Pyrocat HD @ 2+2+100

SAShruby
8-Aug-2006, 08:47
Thanks for the info,

I would agree that within Efke films there can be change possible, but how can JandC and Efke be changed? Also, when I presoak film, water is blue.

But Tim,
if you use more concentrated developer, it will lower CI? not the opposite? I like 8 minutes of development, I think more to change HD soup to 1:1:150...

Peter.

SAShruby
8-Aug-2006, 15:18
As I promised, here is the chart.

SAShruby
10-Aug-2006, 09:24
After more testing, I conclude this results:

Film: JandC Pro 100 film (labeled on the box)
Developer: Pyrocat-HD 1:1:108
Film Speed: ISO 3
Temperature: 70F
Time: 8 minutes
Agitation: Normal, 5sec every 30sec

Contrast Index: 1.02
B+F Density: 0.13
Dmax: 2.54
Effective Stop Range: 6.5 stops



My next testing would be how increase/decrease in time will change the CI and density, after how increase and decrease in dilution would change it as well.

Anybody experienced such a strange speed change as I did? You know, I had to do it because I exposed like 15 negatives and I could not understand, why are they so thin. Now I know.

Jorge Gasteazoro
10-Aug-2006, 10:24
The problem I see with your test is that your reciprocity adjustment might not be accurate. This is why testing is best done with speeds of less than a second. Reciprocity is not a linear behavior in films, reciprosicty adjustment at 2 sec is not the same as the adjustment at 8 or 15 secs. How did you arrive at the proper reciprocity adjustment? I would not assume that JandC made a mistake and sent you efke 25 packaged as JandC 100, most likely your recirpocity adjustment is wrong for the film. I would certainly question a rated 100 speed film that results in a EI of 6.25, specially in pyrocat HD which is known to give full film speed, at least it does with my tests of FP4 .

SAShruby
10-Aug-2006, 12:54
Hi Jorge,

Reciprocity chart is available at JandC website only for JandC 200 and JandC 400. Click Here (http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=29)


I know as well that reciprocity is not linear to time exposure, but if I apply chart for JandC 200 (I red somewhere it has similar characteristics) and apply relationship between JandC 200 and JandC 400, the assumption is to give 4 stops arounf 10sec.

When I do my testing (in the evening) unfortunately I cannot get exposure less than 1 sec at minimum aperture.

lee\c
10-Aug-2006, 13:12
There have been instances of mis-packaging of film coming from J and C. Don Miller has had several packages of Efke 25 masquerading as Efke 100. John made it good. You might want to talk to John before committing to this set of tests.

lee\c

SAShruby
10-Aug-2006, 15:30
... minimum aperture...

Correction, maximum aperture.

Mark Fisher
10-Aug-2006, 16:52
I just tried JandC 100 in 8x10 (all of two sheets of experience) and found that in full strength xtol it seemed to work out fairly close at EI100. One caveat is that I used the worst of the JandC 200 and 400 reciprocity (can't remember which was worse) plus about 1/2 stop. Jand C does not publish any reciprocity numbers for 100 film. Since it is about half the price of the higher speed film, I suspect that it comes from a different source.

tim atherton
10-Aug-2006, 19:13
I think it could well be your reciprocity (assuming you don't have the wrong film - which isn't unheard of). You are basing it on tables for a film which may be entirely different from the one you are testing. Cut it out of the equation

SAShruby
10-Aug-2006, 19:51
Maybe you're right, I suspect reciprocity is maybe more that I assume.

Well then, I will try to get exposure under one second to eliminate reciprocity. But still, for indicated one second exposure I had to do 39 minutes exposure for 1:1 magnification, that is unusual. Reciprocity of nine stops? Never heard of it.

SAShruby
10-Aug-2006, 19:53
Jand C does not publish any reciprocity numbers for 100 film. Since it is about half the price of the higher speed film, I suspect that it comes from a different source.

Mark,

This film was at the same price last year. I don't know since when the price went down, but it is 50% off price when I purchased film. (First time I saw $19 price tag on it was a month ago).

tim atherton
10-Aug-2006, 20:54
Maybe you're right, I suspect reciprocity is maybe more that I assume.

Well then, I will try to get exposure under one second to eliminate reciprocity. But still, for indicated one second exposure I had to do 39 minutes exposure for 1:1 magnification, that is unusual. Reciprocity of nine stops? Never heard of it.

no - obviously something is seriously wrong - removing the reciprocity just makes it one less factor that might confuse things. Same with the 1:1 magnification - one more factor confusing the issue. (are there any B&W films that aren't recomended for long exposures? - I know there are colour films)

Could be the film (wrong type, damaged - whatever), could be the method of exposure, could be the the processing, could be somethign else.

You need to eleminate each factor one by one - or try a different film (or at leasdt a different box)

Have you spoken to John at J&C about it btw?

SAShruby
11-Aug-2006, 04:53
no - obviously something is seriously wrong - removing the reciprocity just makes it one less factor that might confuse things. Same with the 1:1 magnification - one more factor confusing the issue. (are there any B&W films that aren't recomended for long exposures? - I know there are colour films)

Could be the film (wrong type, damaged - whatever), could be the method of exposure, could be the the processing, could be somethign else.

You need to eleminate each factor one by one - or try a different film (or at leasdt a different box)

Have you spoken to John at J&C about it btw?

Tim,

Before I start to speak with John I want to be 100% sure I eliminated all possible mistakes.

Paper was stored in freezer, right now is in a fridge all the time.
I also took another package and tested it, same result.
I can take out Pyrocad-HD solution out. It's developing film very good if properly exposed.
1:1 magnification ratio. I am exposing 8x10 Kodak grey card to achieve even exposure. Is there any other option? (maybe big sheet of white paper?)
Also I want to expose film in camera because I need to test relationship meter,camera,film,developer,print.

Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I doubt so. From my previous negatives exposed at EI100 all came uderexposed. Thi highest density I've got was 1.5. Negatives came out quite flat. I cannot even make a print, which is satisfactory. Now I am getting 2.65. I will try to make a few pictures at new setting to see how they would look like. And do testing outside in the direct sunlight to make exposures less than one second or just around it. I am intenting to post it here because nobody did serious testing with this film.

I like the film, truly, it has nice curve, good densities, works nice in Pyrocat, and it is cheap, $19 dollars per 25 sheets. No pinholes. Uniform coating, densities are stable. I believe it is capable to do push or pull even N+3.

SAShruby
14-Aug-2006, 10:08
Follow up.

This weekend I spent all Sunday testing my strange film.

I discovered several findings.
1.) I am able to define reciprocity failure adjustments
2.) I found pinholes (bought in May 2005)

With these sets of tests, I was able to eliminate reciprocity factor and highly likely I found a flaw with my tests because scene real exposure EIís and test EIís are different. Also, I am not finished with tests; still, I did not test pushes and pulls.

Observed reciprocity adjustments:

Ĺ sec - 1.0 stop
1 sec - 1.5 stops
5 sec Ė 2.0 stops
10 sec Ė 3.0 stops
100 sec Ė 4.0 stops


The flaw:
As I mentioned, film tests EIís are lower than scene EIís about 3 stops. It might be caused by my custom holder. Practically, it is 8x10 holder which has two paper sheets on top of each other. The flaw, they are both white. I believe I am getting reflection from white paper within my bellows, which scatters light so much, that luminance falling on film is greatly lowered. I am going to buy one 4x5 film holder for testing and for now I will buy black paper to replace white ones for now.

Anybody has any opinions to my flaw discovery?


Now, letís go to my scene film testing. My last test was at EI 4. Dmax was 2.56, Dmin 0.872, Stop range is 5.62 stops. Scene range had been 9 stops. I believe I can lower Dmin by increasing EI to 25, where Dmin would fall around 0.4 Ė 0.45 (B+F will be around 0.1) and by increasing development time I would be able to preserve Dmax, even get little bit higher.

I will do these tests tonight if I it wouldnít rain and I will let you know. If you have any comments, I would be happy to hear them.

lee\c
15-Aug-2006, 13:18
Peter said in the op, "I don’t know, maybe I am wrong in my computations but I do not think I’ve got JandC Pro 100. I think I have Efke PL25"

I think this is the case here.

lee\c

j.e.simmons
16-Aug-2006, 07:29
JandC Pro 100 is made in China while Efke is made in Croatia. How could one be in the box of the other? Possibly happened, but I think it's very unlikely. Perhaps it's another film made by whoever made JandC Pro 100.
juan

SAShruby
17-Aug-2006, 12:06
Hi all,

I already bought 4x5 Filmholders, waiting to arrive soon. I also started reading BTZS system and I will try to test film according their approach. I will definitely post curves and all information for Pyrocat-HD.

I also made a decission based on another thread to move it from JandC to FP4+ and HP5 for two reasons:

1.) I want to support Ilford production.
2.) These films are premium films and I do work with premium paper (AZO)

I am intending to use JandC for testing and practising. It's cheap and it will not hurt my budget as much as I would use premium films to learn how to make a proper picture. So that is the reason why I am spending so much time with this film. And for startes like many of us are, it would give some beginning.

Cheers.

SAShruby
28-Aug-2006, 21:14
As I mentioned I did some more testing and here is the result of JandC Film.

It was exposed at EI 3 through my camera, developed at 1:1:100 Pyrocat-HD. Now I am doing another round of testing in the darkroom, so far I have 6 exposed and developed 6 negatives through 7.5W bulb, exposed at 1.5 sec. It's drying so tommorow evening I will post these results as well.

This is first partial graph, I will do all other graphs and determine what EI film has.