Buying first camera: Horseman LE or Toyo 45C?

[shyfe]

Hi, I am planning on buying my first large format camera and I am hoping someone can give me some input on the two cameras I am looking at. The format of choice is a 4 x 5 monorail, and the two cameras that are being considered are the Horseman LE and the Toyo-View 45C. I have looked around at the few camera shops that carry large format and haven't seen anything else promising, just a few very worn out Sinar's and a used Linhof Color Kardan that is way to clunky and overused for the price tag. So what I've come down to is the Horseman LE and the Toyo 45C that have both been found used in good condition on the internet. I want to spend around or under $1000 on the camera (without a lens), but also want a nice, sturdy camera in good condition that I can depend on for consistent results. I plan on using the camera for landscape and architectural work, and even the occasional studio close-up work, basically everything.

I like the geared rise, fall and shift of the Horseman LE, but it costs $250 more than the Toyo and weighs about a pound more (they're both heavy cameras). The Toyo doesn't have any fall, but has 4.7" of rise in the front and rear, much more rise movement than the Horseman that I can use in back to nearly replicate front fall. What I am not sure of is the rigidity and fineness of movements on these two cameras, something that is very important to me.

If anyone out there has experience or knowledge with these cameras or even something close to it, please feel free to either support or bash the model of your choice. I appreciate any input and look forward to your responses. Thanks.

[Ted Harris]

I have used both and the Horseman should be your choice, hands down. The Toyo is a good competent machine but the Horseman is a solid workhorse that is infinitely expandable as it i part of one of the largest systems available. Many of the Horseman parts are also interchangable with Sinar parts and Horseman parts are readily available both new and used. I have a Horseman system in my studio that I have been using for many years (waaaay more than 10). It started life as an LE and has been upgraded over time and is now an LS+ with fully geared movements, expandable rail, other rails, second bellows, etc.

Best part about the Horseman is that you should be able to buy one inexpensively. If you have a Horseman that is "250 more" than the Toyo then it is likely you are looking at one that is too high priced. Call Jim at Midwest (614-261-1264) or send him an email (jim@mpex.com). They are one of the most reliable and best stocked LF dealers in the world and they ship worldwide. A Horseman LE in superb condition from Jim will cost you around $500.

One final thought, as others will also tell you, if you are going to be working primrily outdoors then a monorail may not be the best choice for you. There are also a lot of field camera options in your price range ... Jim again will have what you need.

[Ron Marshall]

If you do get the Horseman and intend to use it in the field you can lighten your load and reduce your storage space by mounting your lenses on Linhof lensboards and getting a Linhof to Sinar/Horseman adaptor board. These are available new and used.

[leeturner]

I managed to pick up a Horseman LX for £155. It's a superb, sturdy camera with excellent yaw free movements. I can't compare it to the Toyo as I've never used one but I can't complain about anything on the Horseman, just don't try and take it into the field as the weight is a killer.

[Ralph Barker]

FWIW, I haven't used a Horseman, but do own a 45C. What I like about the Toyo design is its modularity. Some parts of the 45C can be used on other Toyo models, including the 45A field series. I use a Toyo 45AX in the field, and have standardized on the 110mm lens boards for most of my lenses - even those I use on my 8x10 Tachihara. If I want to shoot architecture with 4x5, I move the 45C's standards to a short (150mm) rail, add the bag bellows, and off I go. I don't know if the Horseman line offers similar versatility, but including consideration of future system expansion may be helpful.

BTW, the Toyo design is intended to center the front and rear standards on the risers, splitting the total range of movement between rise and fall.

[shyfe]

Thank you for your responses. I got in touch with Jim at Midwest Camera and he has a few Horseman LE's at some pretty reasonable prices. I might go with that choice, although I'm seriously rethinking the weight issue with the LE (9.9 pounds). I'm also still pondering the possibility of buying a field camera instead, but I'm apprehensive about the lack of movements that I might need with photographing interiors. I guess it's the age old question of whether the bulk of the monorail camera is worth the added movements. Out in the field, that LE could be quite a load. Anyways, I digress, thanks again for your input.

[leeturner]

At first I tried lugging the Horseman about in the field but it was just a little bit too heavy. The one thing I found for landscape type photography was that I needed very little in the way of movements. I then bought an old MPP technical camera and customised it for field work, and it allows front tilt, swing and shift plus back swing and tilt. Total cost around £90. However for architectural subjects I take the Horseman as close parking is usually available and I need the full range of movements plus a bag bellows. I think with the money you will save on the LE you could possibly pick up and old Graphic for carrying in a backpack.

[Andre Noble]

I also have a Toyo 45C. Relatively light. Use it on a short rail with bag bellows. I can not say about the Horseman. If you get the Toyo 45C be sure to also get the 158 to 110mm adapter board, so you can mount all your lenses on the smaller 110mm boards

I use the Toyo 45AII field more. My Favorite camera (from 35mm to LF).

[riooso]

I do not know if you have already purchased. Look at the Toyo 45AX which does not have a rotating back. You can turn it but have to flip a couple of tabs. This is a solid camera that is not going to let you down. The weight is about 6 pounds. It is a good field camera. It does not have rear shift but everything else. 90mm is about the smallest lens that I would use on it and 300mm is the longest that they recommend. I use a 152 and 90 and am in love with this camera. You can find one used that is well whithin your budget. I picked my up of 800 and it is in mint condition.

Good luck,

Rio Oso

[steve simmons]

Before buying a camera may I suggest some reading

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

or

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

or

Using the View Camera that I wrote.

check your library.

Also, there are several articles on the View Camera web site that might be helpful.
www.viewcamera.com and then go to the Free Articles link on the home page.

What will you be photographing?

steve simmons

[Leonard Evens]

I have a Toho FC-45X. It is not as solid or flexible as the Horseman LE, but it is very light and portable. It is basically a monorail, so it doesn't have the limitations that many field cameras have, and it is as light as anything you are likely to find. I use it for just the the kind of photography you describe, and I haven't found its limitations too restricting in what I can do. I have a bad back, so weight is a very important consideration for me.

You can find a review of the Toho at www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm. You are not likely to find one used. You can get one from Badger Graphics for about $1,400.

[raucousimages]

I am a big Toyo fan but between those two I would take the Horseman. I don't care for the 45C or 45E. Have you concidered the Toyo 45G? Great camera but a bit heavy.