Any Dagor and Wide Angle Dagor Users Out There?

[Michael Kadillak]

I am in the middle of a project with a number of highly qualified assistants to evaluate the possibilities of commercially producing lenses that have shown to be highly valued and desirable among LF and ULF users. One of the designs that is on the drawing board as we speak is the Dagor and the Super Dagor which I believe is also called the Wide Angle Dagor.

If you have experience with one of these lenses and could answer some basic questions about its effective angle of coverage, resolution, image quality to the edge of the image circle and other optical properties could you PM me so I can collect this information and pass it on to the optical engineers that we are working with.

I will promise to post updates on the progress of the work when we cross significant milestones.

My Sincere Thanks In Advance.

[Oren Grad]

Michael, reports about parameters like coverage and image quality are so subjective, I think you'd be better off if you could lay your hands on a few actual samples, experiment with them on your own camera(s) so that you could calibrate your own sense of their behavior, and then demonstrate directly to the engineers what it is you're talking about. Or maybe you can find someone who's a real Dagor expert, and arrange a meeting where that person can bring a kit of lenses, join you in a conference with the engineers to explain their properties in detail, and let the engineers put some of the lenses on an optical bench and make their own measurements. Be sure as well to share with the engineers some prints that will show those aspects of optical character that aren't captured by numbers.

Do bear in mind that between the many different production runs by different factories at different times, and iffy quality control in decades past, Dagors vary substantially in their behavior.

Good luck - hope you can pull it off!

[Capocheny]

Michael,

Two names come immediately to mind when you speak of these types of lenses...

Jim Galli

and

Dagor77.

I'd suggest you contact them...

Good luck on the project!

Cheers

[John Berry]

I think an important aspect would be that it have a ROUND apature.

[Mark Sawyer]

"Do bear in mind that between the many different production runs by different factories at different times, and iffy quality control in decades past, Dagors vary substantially in their behavior." ~ Oren Grad

I have two 210mm f/6.8 Dagors. They do indeed "vary substantially in their behavior."

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. Goerz and successors weren't the only firms that made "dagors." Boyer made at least three lines of lenses to the Dagor formula.

And then there are the early f/9 G-Clarons, also dagor types. Galli has had some, probably still has a bastard with a front cell from one f.l. and rear from another. He's quite enthusiastic about his.

Michael, do your market research carefully and be aware of the power of "the brand." If you can't get the right to use the name "Dagor" your products will be hard to sell. Remember that because Dagors are relatively uncommon its easy for the lunatic fringe to run them up to prices in eBay auctions at which very few would sell if they were generally available.

[BrianShaw]

Michael, do your market research carefully and be aware of the power of "the brand." If you can't get the right to use the name "Dagor" your products will be hard to sell.

I hereby lay claim to the tradename "DAGO-R". Should anyone be interested in licensing this name, please contact me A$AP.

[Bill_1856]

I believe that Michael Smith and Paula Chanlee use Dagors and Artars exclusively.

[Hugo Zhang]

Michael,

One person I know who has extensively used Carl Zeiss Dagors is Kerik. He is a ULF guy and I believe he has used this lens in different sizes over the years. I myself use a 18cm CZ Dagor on my Deardorff, my favorite lens.

Hugo

[Peter Roody]

Michael,

I use 180mm and 210mm zeiss f9 dagors for 8x10. Both easily cover 8x10. Both lenses produce sharp contact prints. I tend to be conservative in my estimates of coverage for these lenses compared to other users. I think you should include some movement in this assessment. Also, these are wide angle designs and they usually have a minimum aperture of f45 in original shutters/barrels. You might get additional coverage if you stop down past f45. I would say they cover (with movement) 10x12 (180mm) and 11x14 (210mm) based on the useable movement I see on 8x10.

These lenses are small and light. The 180mm is a direct fit in a copal 1. The 210mm fits a slightly larger dial-set compur but could be mated to a copal 1. A new version with modern coatings and glass would be great.

By the way, I asked Cooke if they will be reintroducing a new version of heir VIIB wide angle lenses. See their reply below:

Hi Peter,

Thanks so much for your comments. *Making a modern redesign of the original VIIb wide angle lens is something that we definitely want to do, and plan to do. *Unfortunately, those pesky motion picture lenses that pay the bills keep getting in the way of the fun stuff.

The VIIb should be the next lens we tackle after the 4x5 version of the Cooke XVa triple convertible. *That will be the next out. * I wish I had an ETA for you, but I don't. *I will keep your suggestions in my file.

Thanks so much for your interest,

Barbara Lowry
Cooke Optics Limited
Leicester, England
barb@cookeoptics.com
973-335-4460 in New Jersey
http://www.cookeoptics.com

[Michael Kadillak]

All excellent points very well taken. I have no dilusions of garnering any lofty prices for any Dagor re-manufacture nor do I have an expectations of using the trademark name. If after this research and optical evaluation we arrive at something that we feel would work in the marketplace a lens offering would have to perform better, have an enormous amount of coverage, be smaller and or lighter and be affordable to people that want to make quality photographs without taking out a second mortgage.

My sincere thanks for taking the time to post.

More to follow.

[Dan Fromm]

Michael, not to suggest that you trample on Cooke Optics, but while you're in the thinking things over and designing phase, have your opticians investigate 4/4 double Gauss types as well as 6/2 Dagor types. I make the suggestion because the double Gauss types have offered what the ancients thought was more and better coverage than Dagors and may be less expensive/easier to manufacture.

I'm thinking of, e.g., Boyer Perle, Meyer WA Aristostigmat, not of 4/2 double anastigmats like the Berthiot Perigraphe, Rodenstock Perigon, although these last also offer more coverage than Dagors and are actually around in small numbers.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

[wfwhitaker]

Hmmm.... A 16" 'Wide-Field Ektar'??

[Steve Hamley]

Why not a remake of the Computar, a wide angle plasmat? Probably cheaper to manufacture than a Dagor, and with about the same sharp coverage in reality as the WA Dagor.

Steve

[tim atherton]

That 180mm f9 (?) Carl Zeiss Dagor design would be a winner with the 8x10 crowd I think. The few people I know who use one love it.

Reputedly very sharp, among other things

[Kerik Kouklis]

Michael,

As Hugo suggested, I have a 240mm f/9 Carl Zeiss Dagor in shutter that I've used for several years. It just hits the corners on 14x17 at infinity. Plenty sharp to the corners for contact printing. One of my favorite lenses ever.

[Ole Tjugen]

A multi-coated WA Aristostigmat (or WA Polyplast) would be a nice lens.

I've seen the difference between uncoated and (post)coated dialytes (two 135/4.5 Eurynars), and that's one case where coating really makes a big difference. With no cemented groups it should be far cheaper to make than a WA Dagor, too!

[Dan Fromm]

A multi-coated WA Aristostigmat (or WA Polyplast) would be a nice lens.

I've seen the difference between uncoated and (post)coated dialytes (two 135/4.5 Eurynars), and that's one case where coating really makes a big difference. With no cemented groups it should be far cheaper to make than a WA Dagor, too!
Ole, isn't the Aristostigmat a 4/4 double Gauss? Not that this fact has any bearing on your point that coating is good for 'em.

Cheers,

Dan

[CP Goerz]

I once looked into maiking a 12" WA Dagor based on the Goerz design. I couldn't get the costs below $4K so figured no-one would buy it. Making a lens is a pricey biz indeed!


CP goerz

[Ole Tjugen]

Ole, isn't the Aristostigmat a 4/4 double Gauss? Not that this fact has any bearing on your point that coating is good for 'em.

No, it isn't: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/meyerb/p6.html

[Dan Fromm]

No, it isn't: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/meyerb/p6.htmlThanks for the link, look at the Aristostigmat cross-section again. Four elements, all menisci, all concave to the diaphragm. If it isn't a 4/4 double Gauss, what is it?

Cheers,

Dan

[Ole Tjugen]

If it isn't a 4/4 double Gauss, what is it?

Of course it is.

I shouldn't post without engaging my brain first!

Anyway, as we both seem to agree, it's a great candidate for a modern coated version!

My reference to the Eurynar (dialyte) was intended to point out that 4/4 lenses of any type benefit tremendously from even the simplest single coating. And then my brain shut down.. ;)