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Robert Ley
18-Jul-2006, 18:47
I recently broke down and got an 3010 Expert Drum on Feebay. It is used, but not abused and seems to work fine on my CPA-2. I am used to the 2500 series tanks and have a Jobo washer(sticks in the top of the tank) for these tanks that works well with my old 2509n reels. My question is will this work with the 3010 and if not how do you wash your film?

Oren Grad
18-Jul-2006, 18:55
You wash the film in the drum, on the processor - just keep the processor running, and follow the chemical steps with a series of water rinse steps. You should be doing that anyway to clean the processor.

Robert Ley
18-Jul-2006, 19:09
Oren, I usually follow the last chemical step with several washes to make sure the all the last chemical is washed out of the lift. How many washes and for how long? Should I use a wash aid like Perma Wash? Perma Wash calls for a 30 second -1min wash, followed by 1min in the permawash and 1 more min wash. That seems kind of short to me. I am not crazy about washing in a tray as it is too easy to scratch the film and I don't want to have to get a dedicated sheet film washer.

Oren Grad
18-Jul-2006, 19:23
Robert, if you use a non-hardening rapid fixer, you don't need Permawash for film. For sheet film run on my Jobo, I just use five changes of water, run for two minutes each. That may be overkill, but it's also not that burdensome, so I'm happy to err on the side of caution.

If you haven't seen them, download any of the Ilford film data sheets and take a look at their recommendations for washing after a non-hardening fix. If you're used to older recommendations that assume a hardening fixer, it's amazing how short a wash they recommend.

Ron Marshall
18-Jul-2006, 20:11
After a rinse in the Jobo I transfer the sheets to a Combi-plan and let the water flow through for five minutes.

Bruce Watson
19-Jul-2006, 05:22
I wash in the drum using a modified Ilford wash method. I use four wash steps, each using 500ml of distilled water. Times are 1, 1, 2, 4 minutes.

Getting fixer out of an emulsion is a diffusion process. This is the reason that the times go up with each step. The method and reasoning behind it are explained somewhere on the Ilford website IIRC. I don't remember where, sorry.

Oren Grad
19-Jul-2006, 05:37
Here are Ilford's wash instructions, drawn from the 100 Delta data sheet (it's the same for the other films):


When a non-hardening fixer has been used wash the films in running water for 510 minutes at a temperature within 5C (9F) of the process temperature.

For spiral tank use, when a non-hardening fixer has been used, the following method of washing is recommended. This method of washing is faster, uses less water yet still gives negatives suitable for long term storage.

After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/ 5C (9F), as the processing solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once more drain the water away and refill. Finally, invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.

Robert Ley
19-Jul-2006, 06:23
Oren, Thanks for the information and I have now checked out the Ilford data sheets. I will try your method of washing in the drum. I have switched to Clayton Archival Fixer which is non-hardening so your method should work. I don't believe it would hurt to use permawash as well, so I may use that too.
Bruce, Is there a specific reason that you use distilled water? The water in my area is pretty good and I have never had any problems with my H2O. I mix my Photoflo with distilled water and give my film a final rinse with distilled water.

Bruce Watson
19-Jul-2006, 06:50
Is there a specific reason that you use distilled water? The water in my area is pretty good and I have never had any problems with my H2O.
Yes. Cleaner film.

My city water is quite good. But... there's still stuff in it (very small particulates). I could filter most of it out of the incoming water, but that still leaves the pipes between the filters and the faucet. The insides of water pipes are never as clean as one might hope ;-)

It's all a part of my ongoing fight for cleaner negatives. I'm at the point where the only water I use for anything is steam distilled (about $1.50 usd per 10 sheets). I use all chemicals one shot, including fixer. I even wash the equipment using distilled water and hang everything upside down to dry so dust doesn't settle into the drum and graduates as they dry.

Obsessive / compulsive? Yes, and freely admitted. Showing results? Yes, better than I thought possible. But I'm sure it's not for everyone. Clearly, YMMV ;-)

Bruce Watson
19-Jul-2006, 07:13
After fixing, fill the spiral tank with water at the same temperature, +/ 5C (9F), as the processing solutions and invert it five times. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times. Once more drain the water away and refill. Finally, invert the tank twenty times and drain the water away.
Yes, there is a paper floating around out there somewhere that describes this sequence and the reasons for it. But this is what it becomes in practice. I modified this proceedure for my 3010 drum and Jobo CPP-2 use.

What I remember is removing fixer is a diffusion process. That is, the fixer will migrate from regions of high concentration (the emulsion) to regions of low concentration (wash water) until a balance is reached. And it will do this fairly quickly.

The first bath is used to get what's left of the liquid fixer out of the tank - the fixer that didn't drain out at the end of the fixing bath. This doesn't take any time at all really - a few seconds. I use a minute because it's easier for me and because the extra time really doesn't matter.

The second bath actually takes the largest part of the fixer out of the film. It works because the volume of film emulsion is so small compared to the volume of wash water. For equilibrium to be extablished the vast majority of the fixer has to migrate out of the emulsion into the water.

The third bath takes the fixer levels in the film down to "archival" levels. It takes longer because you want to get the last bit of fixer out from the very bottom of the emulsion layer.

I do a fourth bath for "safety" in case I didn't do a good job draining the tank one time. But the fourth bath is probably overkill indeed. I give it extra time to make sure that all the fixer that wants to migrate can, through the entire thickness of the emulsion. And also because I'm using that time to clean up so that I can hang the film to dry and immediately leave the darkroom.

Notice that there's no hypo clearing bath used.

This system seems to work well for me. I always recommend that people do residual hypo tests to verify that they get a sufficient wash however.

Robert Ley
19-Jul-2006, 08:02
Bruce, Thanks so much for your detailed description of your wash procedure. It sure makes sense to me and I will give it a try.

tim atherton
19-Jul-2006, 08:33
Bruce, Is there a specific reason that you use distilled water? The water in my area is pretty good and I have never had any problems with my H2O. I mix my Photoflo with distilled water and give my film a final rinse with distilled water.

you shouldn't use photoflo in the expert drums (not sure about other jobo drums)

Bruce Watson
19-Jul-2006, 09:44
you shouldn't use photoflo in the expert drums (not sure about other jobo drums)
Oh, yes. Absolutely. You'll never get that stuff out of a Jobo system lift or a drum. Always do the Photoflow rinse in a tray dedicated to the purpose.

Kirk Keyes
19-Jul-2006, 10:35
Oh, yes. Absolutely. You'll never get that stuff out of a Jobo system lift or a drum. Always do the Photoflow rinse in a tray dedicated to the purpose.

I use Photoflow in the 3010 drum. I pop the top and then fill the film wells with working strength photoflow. I have done this for years and never had any problems.

I may make a difference as to the quality of water your use. (I use regular, 20 micron filtered tap water.)

So what problems did you guys have with Photoflow in an expert drum???

tim atherton
19-Jul-2006, 10:41
Kirk - there's a jobo paper on it somewhere, but if I remember correctly, it leaves a residue on the drums that lasts for a long time (through numerous uses/washes) and which requires special cleaning to remove.

This in turn can harbour developer, fixer residue etc which can than come into direct contact with negs being processed in the expert drums because they rest against the walls of the drum... or something like that

tim atherton
19-Jul-2006, 10:50
here's one:

http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service/us_analog/faq/stabilizer_on_reels.htm

I've seen another more specifically on the expert drums, where it can be a bigger potential problem due to the direct contact

Bruce Watson
19-Jul-2006, 11:31
So what problems did you guys have with Photoflow in an expert drum???
Soapy scum on the walls of the drum that won't come off, either by chemical or physical means. Causes other chemicals to foam (developers especially) and may interfere with their and/or the Jobo system's effectiveness.

The Jobo system I have now was once owned by a guy who did his own E-6 processing. Sure enough he did run stabilizers through the lift. It's been almost five years now and I still can't get the stuff out. And it still makes foam. Irritating, but doesn't seem to be overly harmful.

tim atherton
19-Jul-2006, 12:29
Bruce - have you tried that CLR stuff they sell via TV? (and at Home Depot etc)

No guarantees it may not screw other stuff up... but it really cleaned up nicely a rather cruddy expert drum I got off ebay

I figure if it's safe enough to run through my coffee machine it's probably okay in the jobo tanks :-)