UK-April or September?

[Ryan Hill]

Thanks to a merger at work I'll actually be getting a few more vacation days next year in 2007 (yes, it is fairly unheard of but who am I to refuse). Anway my wife and I are looking that as a good reason to cash in some airline miles and fly someplace for two weeks next summer.

Looking at the UK. Probably pick two areas and concentrate around them for several days each. Tops on the list is the northwest coast of Scotland-the western Highlands, maybe Isle of Skye. More open for the other area, but thought about the Lake District, Wales, or SW England (Stonehenge and Cornwall area).

I have read through many posts here and have seen many an issues of the various UK mags like Outdoor Photography, Photography Monthly, and Practical Photography that have given me some great ideas on basic locations.

We would be looking for quieter places to stay. Places with easy access for a good hike. I would also like to be able to get out early and late for some landscapes. Figure morning photography, hikes, see historical places, evening photography. Here is the states we normally frequent National Parks, but I do not think you will encounter anything with the lodges, hiking, etc of the US park system.

Ideally we would also like to avoid the worst of the tourists and midges. So we are looking at late April or mid-late September. As long as we do not have clear bluebird blue skys, the weather does not bother me. So I am not worried so much about cool weather, or some rain, even snow etc. Now 10 straight days of rain would put a damper on it, but cold mornings and a little fog or mist sound like good photography to me.

Would September 10-25 be too early for any fall colors in Scotland? When would there be fall colors? Would the midges still drive us crazy? When to be in NW Scotland to miss the midge season, but still get some fall color?

Would late April 15-30 beat the midges? Would there be any flowers out? Has spring arrived in the Highlands yet? What would be the best time in spring to get flowers and "warmer" temps but no midges?

Thanks.

One last question. When you are in the UK is it possible to find any inns/B+B's/motels or for that matter places to eat that are non-smoking? I take non-smoking for granted here the states, but has that concept caught on in Europe? Or are going to always smell like a Marlboro?

[robc]

don't know enough about Scotland to answer that part, but for the southwest:

Stonehenge is overated. Yes its worth a visit but it is highly controlled with guards around. The best time of day is early morning before you can get in and when there is no one about. A long lens is required for this and you can take images from outside of the fenced area. Since English Heritage took control, they have ruined it by trying to make money out of it and making it very difficult to gain access. There are plans to make it impossible to see it unless you pay. To do that they are going to build a tunnel so that you can't drive anywhere near it and make you park two miles away and pay to be transported to it. Currently the road runs right past it and so few pay to go in to see it close up.

A little further north in Wiltshire, is Avebury. This stone ring circles the whole village and is well worth a visit. It is built inside large earthworks. Again early morning is best as there will be far fewer people about, if any. Nearby to Avebury is Silbury Hill which is a very unusual ancient monument which is still unexplained. Just across the road from Silbury Hill at West Kennet, there are long barrows. The local market town of Marlborough is a very nice place to stay. Salisbury in the south of Wiltshire is a bigger and very nice town also, with its famous cathedral and spire seen in many paintings by Constable.

Much further West you have Devon and Cornwall. Cornwall has a beautiful coastline. Inland cornwall is fairly barren and not much to see. Devon also has a beautiful coastline. Where Devon scores is that it is much more interesting inland. Dartmoor provides miles and miles of relatively people free walking at the times of year you are thinking of. I would suggest later in the year rather than spring for Dartmoor. Simply because, if it has been a wet winter, which it usually is, then Dartmoor can be very boggy in the spring. But then again, it will be very green in the spring and fewer people about. Dartmoor has many stone circles and ancient monuments on a much smaller scale than Avebury or Stonehenge. Accomodation in the dartmoor area is plentiful. Dartmoor is about granite Tors and moorland river valleys. There are thatched cottages in abundance and semi wild Dartmoor ponies everywhere.

On route to Devon/Cornwall, Bath is defintely worth a visit for its Roman Baths and Architecture. Nearby to bath is Westonbirt Arboretum, which, if its Autumn, is defintely worth a visit for the colours. You are also in the vicinty of Lacock Abbey which was the home of Fox Talbot and is much visited by photographers and also Castle Combe which was voted prettiest village in England.

As for non smoking, you will have to ask. Many guest houses and small hotels are non smoking, but not all.

There are likely to be less people around in the spring unless its Easter in which case you had better book accomodation early. Either just before or after the Easter Bank Holiday is OK but not Easter itself.

British Weather is not predictable. Its not nearly as bad as its reputation but its just not predicatable. It can be warm in spring or like this year it was very cold. September will usually be warmer than Spring.

N.B. The lake District is one the wettest regions of England. It is also busy all year and horrendously busy in summer(July/August).

[robc]

To add. Avebury is at one end of "The Ridgeway" (http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/paths/ridgeway.html)

The Ridgeway is very good walking but they are straight line walks and not circular. Further East from Avebury in Berkshire you have "The White Horse" at Uffington and the "Wayland Smithy" which is a very well preserved Long Barrow. Both ancient monuments on high ground along the Rideway.

Avebury, Silbury Hill and West Kennet Long Barrow makes a nice circular walk approx 10 miles.

For Dartmoor view (http://www.dartmoor-npa.gov.uk/) and for maps and paths of Dartmoor in extreme detail view (http://gis.devon.gov.uk/basedata/viewer.htm?DCCService=footpath)

From dartmoor its worth driving down to Dartmouth for a days visit. On the south side of Dartmoor there is Bovey Tracey with an arts center which is definitely worth a visit.

[John Kasaian]

Ahhh, but the food is always better in Italy!

[robc]

Ahhh, but the food is always better in Italy!

If you have local knowledge then thats not necessarily true!

[Barry F]

Hey,

Why concentrate on either the South of England or Scotland. Take my advice: -

1) get a plane direct to Manchester,
2) hire a car,
3) head for, and stay in the Yorkshire Dales (a National Park of outstanding beauty),
4) using the Dales as a base you have, within 65 miles, two more of our wonderful National Parks - the Lake District and the Peak District,
5) take lots and lots of Velvia 50,
6) I'll see you in the Railway Inn in Edale (Peak District), one of the 3 pubs in Malham (Dales), and (not or!) in one of the lakeside pubs at Windermere (Lakes)

Whatever you do, have a great time over here.

Barry

[Bobf]

"National Park" means different things in the UK than the US. People live in the National Parks and go about their everyday business much as they do outside. In the Parks however, development is highly restricted and much of the land, especially the higher areas, is open access.

Of your two dates, I would pick September: it is likely to still be warm(ish) and may well be sunny(ish)... or not... April suffers from the well known ditty: "April showers bring forth May's flowers"... and is likely to be cold too. Alternately, it can be warm and sunny, but you can't really rely on anything in England as far as the weather is concerned - you can only work with averages... Either time of year is likely to give you ground fog over the lakes etc in the mornings but April will give lower sun angles during the day for good light (but shorter days overall). In either case, you will probably need to hire a car as many local bus routes either do not run or are restricted to a couple of buses per day outside the peak tourist season.

Hiking in the Lake District or the Yorkshire Dales for example means walking along grass or gravel covered footpaths that were originally used by shepherds or people moving livestock from one valley to another, or between towns, as well as routes up to the various peaks (we are talking 2 - 3,000 feet here - this is NOT the Rockies!). There are any number of guide books showing circular routes taking from a few hours to a whole day (or longer it you want - but most are 1 day routes).

I can't really comment of Scotland except to say that I doubt Sept will see much colour change in foliage - it's certainly too early for the Lake District which is just below Scotland - October is the earliest there. Good news is that if you choose September, the school holidays end the 1st week in Sept so you will miss the peak tourist season. I always go to the Lakes etc in early Spring or late Autumn to avoid the worst of the crowds, even though the weather gets even more unpredictable at those times... I usually rent a flat or cottage in, or to the south of, Keswick (pronounced "kes-ik" - there's a lot of that sort of thing in N. England - much worse in Scotland! ;) http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk/ - is where I usually book). Outside the peak tourist times as you propose visiting, last-minute booking will not be a problem, though the selection may be somewhat restricted - especially if you require non-smoking.

If you are interested in ancient sites then this site (http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/mapbrowser/) is a goldmine. The database takes a while to load, but it is worth the wait... If you must tick off Stonehenge, then do so, but as others have said, I would not give English Heritage (a Government organization) any of my money for their abuse of this most ancient of
ancient monuments. Shoot it from a distance and it still retains its grandeur however.

Have fun, Bob.

[Ryan Hill]

RobC-
I had seen some of your other posts on Avebury and that certainly sounded nicer than the crowd and fence at Stonehenge. Dartmoor sounds alot like the kind of place we would like to see and will be worthy of investigstion as our second location sounds like there is a nice mixture of scenery for my camera at daybreak, hiking, and history.

Rather than spend our time and try to see everything, my thought was to go to to say Devon for 3-5 days. Travel north to Scotland and spend the rest of our trip there 5-7 days. Maybe a day in Edinburgh and the rest along the coast and mountains.

I like getting a place to stay and being able to use it as a base for 3-4 days as opposed to moving every day.

John-
Italy would be the wife's second choice. Actually I was pushing for Patagonia or Alaska, but we compromised on the UK.


BarryF-
I'll look at Yorkshire Dales, that was another area that drew my interest.

When we first started looking at a trip like this we considered something like those REI walking tours. Sounded like a nice way to see an area. Now we are looking more at striking out on our own.

BobF-
That is useful info about fall colors and holiday. I had thought about tying our trip around the US Labor Day holiday as then I could take 9 days off work and have two full weeks. But, we may push back a little bit if we do the fall.


How late in the year could you visit Scotland and expect fair weather? I understand that it can be fickle and can snow anytime, but generally would mid October be too cold, or miserable? What about late April?

[Barry F]

RobC-


How late in the year could you visit Scotland and expect fair weather?

The best chance to guarantee fair weather in Scotland would be the 32nd day of each month ;)

Barry

[PigleT]

I'm based in Perth. Late April sounds more likely, as if you're lucky you might get early spring flowers popping up and no midges until mid-June or so, whereas mid-september things will not be turning so much - last year was up to mid-November for autumn colours.

Assynt and Sutherland are two of my favoured areas - further north than you were thinking, but absolutely beautiful. Got through no end of film last August (back when I was only a medium-formatter ;) Everything from 40mph gales kicking up spin-drift across the loch to sunlight streaming out from clouds over mountains, you name it. (Very remote: "Boss - it's not just that the mobile will be off - I *will* be out of range for the week" - and so I was ;)

There's also Glen Affric just down from Inverness - within striking distance of Skye, but not very many b&bs nearby (book 6 months in advance if you want a chance during the busy season - oh, but there's Ffordes camera shop just up the road in Beauly, of course - shop of high gravitational coefficient). Affric is a magically beautiful area, one of the few remnants of the Caledonian Forest, totally gorgeous - I get the impression it's a classic place for photographers to hone their abilities. Good for a long day or two 2/3rd-day trips, at least.

Oh, and if you want to avoid midges: don't hang around the water's edge and don't eat sugary food (they'll be attracted to your breath).

I'd second considering the Lake District. Plenty of fun passes (1:4 gradients and stuff) around there, and there's Mediobogum (ancient roman fort remains) as well. Or north Yorkshire. :)

[PigleT]

"How late in the year could you visit Scotland and expect fair weather? I understand that it can be fickle and can snow anytime, but generally would mid October be too cold, or miserable? What about late April?"

I'd say these could be fine. And you really do need to be up a significant mountain to get snow into May ;)

[Ryan Hill]

PigleT-
Great sites! Thanks!

After looking at all the places, I now see four areas that really interest me (I was down to two, but now will look at four):

Dartmoor
Snowdonia/Wales
North York Moors/Lake District
NW Scotland

Scotland is a must but it will take some real effort to narrow down the other three.

Still thinking about late April or September and both sound pretty nice.

[robc]

After looking at all the places, I now see four areas that really interest me (I was down to two, but now will look at four):
Dartmoor
Snowdonia/Wales
North York Moors/Lake District
NW Scotland


I live very near to Dartmoor so I'm biased. However, your choice should be about the type of walking and what else you want to do and see. I have walked in North Wales and can tell you that there are superb walks there. Cadair Idris area is superb. Its close to Portmeirion (http://www.portmeirion-village.com/) which is where the 1967 TV series "The Prisoner" was filmed. Infact all the areas you mention have superb walks. Dartmoor is easy walking by comparison with North Wales and Lake district. North York moors are on a par with Dartmoor. i.e. not so steep or arduous. Lake district is stunning for scenery and providing you miss July/August then I'd consider it but it will still be busy. North York moors and Dartmoor will never be too busy.

Note that drive form devon/Cornwall to NW Scotland is a long way and will take a very long day to do it in one go.

[Paul Ewins]

I spent all of August and September 2005 travelling in the UK and can offer the following suggestions:

If stone circles and such interests you then I would strongly suggest a week on Orkney. Renting a self catering cottage and hiring a car will be the cheapest way. The various standing stones are free to visit. You'll pay to see Skara Brae and will need to book a couple of days ahead for Maeshowe as they only take 10 or so people at a time through. It can get crowded at the standing stones, but if you are patient there are some quiet spots between the tourist buses. There are lots of other things to see and do and plenty of spots where you can set up a tripod without being jostled.

Driving through Scotland in August was magnificent, provided you don't mind roadworks and caravans.

Access at Stonehenge is restricted, but you do actually get quite close to the stones at one point and then get far enough away to take the whole thing in. Often overrun with tourists but I managed a few shots that were empty of people. Being early and mid-week will help a little but don't expect miracles. There is just the stones to see, so don't expect to spend more than 30 min - 1 hour there.

Avebury will take half a day to a day depending on the weather. On a sunny day you can spend a lot of time just wandering amongst the stones. On a rainy day it'll be straight to the museums and off home again. Lacock Abbey (and Lacock village) are well worth a visit, again half a day to a day depending on your pace.

Many B&B's can be booked via email or from web pages. Any B&B rated less than four star/diamond is getting risky. When it was somebody's spare room the rating mattered less. Those that were full time businesses (i.e. like micro-hotels) a rating less than 4 stars usually indicated that something would not be right. Most B&Bs were no smoking. Most expected to be paid in cash. A few could provide evening meals but most insisted that you eat elsewhere. Prices ranged from 20 to 40 pounds (per person) with York and Edinburgh being the most expensive. Double rooms were the standard, twin fairly common, single or triple not so sommon. Staying as a single in a double room usually attracted a surcharge.

[PigleT]

If stone circles and such interests you then I would strongly suggest a week on Orkney.

Ah, good plan - I'm envious. Keep meaning to get up there too!


Many B&B's can be booked via email or from web pages. Any B&B rated less than four star/diamond is getting risky. When it was somebody's spare room the rating mattered less. Those that were full time businesses (i.e. like micro-hotels) a rating less than 4 stars usually indicated that something would not be right. Most B&Bs were no smoking. Most expected to be paid in cash. A few could provide evening meals but most insisted that you eat elsewhere. Prices ranged from 20 to 40 pounds (per person)

FWIW last August I looked into the various B&Bs up in the NW corner and decided that the Unapool/Kylesku area was the place to be.

http://www.assynt.info/page12.html might help - we found Maryck was great; perfect location, lots of scenery, accessible, and run by a friendly lady who didn't mind me leaving at 5am to take early-morning photos of Ardvreck Castle. Recommended (by just a happy customer :)

[robc]

Just noticed that our host was at Stonehenge, Avebury, Lacock, Castle Coombe and Bath earlier this year. Looks like he listened to my recommendation before I'd actually given it. ;)

http://www.terragalleria.com/europe/united-kingdom/

[Pete Watkins]

Ryan,
I live in England and I have never felt the need to apply for a passport. I am biased! September would be a lot less riskier than April weatherwise. If you're not into stone circles, I am very much, but all the same if I were you you I would spend a week on The Isle of Wight and a week in the Whitby area. Don't listen to the rest of them, these areas are the absolute cream of the English countryside, I was a long distance White Van Man for a few years and I saw most of the U.K. mainland. On the journey from the Island to North Yorkshire you could call at the best and most intimate Sacred Site that I have visited, the Rollright Stones in North Oxfordshire / South Warwickshire. You could spend an overnight in Oxford, possibly the nicest City in the U.K. except for the facist skum who monitor the car parking. I've been to Scotland a few times for work, and as I was brought up between Kings Cross and Euston railway stations in London (NOT TRAIN STATIONS, RAILWAY STATIONS), I have seen the cream of Glasgow and the rest of the country when they have come down for football internationals (Soccer) and I would never go north of Gretna Green for pleasure.
Julia Margret Cameron indulged in photography on the Isle of Wight, and there is a museum in her memory. John Meadow Sutcliff photographed extensivley in North Yorshire and there is a shop devoted to his work in Witby. If you go to the I.O.W. and North Yorkshire and get no pleasure from these venues there is no hope. Visit The English Hertitage website. Have a good time!
Pete.

[Struan Gray]

Dartmoor
Snowdonia/Wales
North York Moors/Lake District
NW Scotland


These are all great places to take photographs. You need to choose between dashing about taking obvious shots of well-known landmarks, and staying in one place and discovering it for yourself.

If the historic sites are important to you, The Yorkshire Dales / Peak District mix is hard to beat. Dartmoor and Snowdonia have just as much history, but less variety. The Midlands have been geopolitically and economically important since Britain's pre-history, and there are cultural artefacts and landscapes from all ages down to the present. Dartmoor became a backwater after the Stone Age, and Snowdonia sometime in the Middle Ages.

I spent Easter this year on the S. Edge of the N. Yorks Moors, and had I been free to photograph I would have burnt a lot of film. Things are green, but not so green that you can't see the wood for the trees. Bluebells and wild garlic carpet anywhere there's shade. The weather is variable, but the rain keeps the foliage fresh and he skies interesting.

My favourite time in Scotland is late May to early June. Even that late the midges usually haven't got going, and there are some flowers out, even in the bogs. April can have spectacular storms and wonderful clear days with the sun dancing off snowy-topped mountains. But it can also have two weeks' solid grey mush when the only thing worth photographing is your own despair. Later would give you more chance of what is conventionally regarded as good light.

I'm a fan of Coigach, the peninsula north of Ullapool and the Summer Isles. The cultural sites are subtle compared to things like Fountains Abbey or York Minster, but Pictish Duns and abandoned runrigs have a quiet charm that appeals to me. I wrote a fairly comprehensive cheat sheet over on APUG a while back, so take a look if you're interested:

http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23010

Finally, if you like coastlines rather than moorland, consider dumping all the softy southern recommendations and spend your time in Northumberland and the Borders before moving on to N.W. Scotland. Just as many castles, cathedrals, old market towns and pretty woodlands as the Midlands, but a superb coastline too.

Struan

PS: I have nothing against September, or autumn colours, but late spring is more magical in all the places you've mentioned.