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Andre Noble
4-Jul-2006, 04:19
First, I realize the wet darkroom should be well ventilated.

But I wanted to ask out of curiosity to those who have worked all day in an unventilated one developing B&W prints in open trays: Have you noticed an ill effect from sucking in fixer fumes on your (even if just temporary) state of mental health? Did it put you in a slight funk for a sort while - like adding a full moon to a hangover?

Over the years, when I've had rare occasion to develope prints for a whole day stretch, I kind of felt 'out of it' the next day.

Is this just my imagination?:confused:

Nick_3536
4-Jul-2006, 04:40
Switch to an alkaline fixer like TF-2. Problem solved.

Andre Noble
4-Jul-2006, 04:56
I used that kind (but TF-4) in past, but was (possibly) have problems with the high (pH) alkalinity affecting the paper/emusion bond a paper's dimesional stability.

Specifically, I was getting random, parallel creases in the paper, and an almost flaking-like emulsion after developing in Ansco 130 and then water stop and then TF-4 fixer then complete air dry, then dry-mount press flattening at 200F, 1 minute of fiber prints.. I'm sure the problem was somewhere there, so i went back to Bromophen developer acid stop and Ilford rapid fixer.

But my current question is about the (thiosulfate) type fixers. Does it make you feel funky?

Nick_3536
4-Jul-2006, 05:07
TF-2 is a hypo [sodium thiosulfate] fixer. No smell at all. I guess if you stick your head in the tray but that's about it.

Donald Qualls
4-Jul-2006, 08:32
I can barely smell plain hypo at all. I normally use commercially made rapid fixer, and the acetic acid and low level of sulfur dioxide (from sulfite in an acidic solution) doesn't bother me -- I use acetic acid stop bath, too. Even in an unventilated darkroom, I find it no big deal.

I have experimented with water stop and plain or alkalized hypo fixer, and may go there again at some point in the search for a method of making archival fiber prints without spending hours on my knees washing in trays in the bathtub (alkaline gelatin washes faster). The difference in odor isn't significant, even with zero ventilation. However, the one time I've tried an ammonia alkalized fixer (which would be similar in odor to an alkaline rapid fixer), the ammonia nearly drove me out, even though I had the darkroom door open (working with alt process, faint white light wasn't a problem since the prints were sensitive only to UV or very intense blue light).

My likely solution for rapid washing will be to use alkalized hypo clearing agent (homemade -- 2% sodium sulfite plus a small amount of sodium carbonate); this is odorless, and won't add to the miasma I'm used to.

reellis67
4-Jul-2006, 09:14
I work in a bathroom/darkroom with little or no ventilation, but I've never had any problems other than sore feet after 6-8 hours in there. I use TF-4, which does have some smell, but not enough to cause me problmes, even after long printing sessions. Having said that, I should add that I wouldn't tone in a small space without ventilation...

- Randy

Ralph Barker
4-Jul-2006, 09:29
. . . Over the years, when I've had rare occasion to develope prints for a whole day stretch, I kind of felt 'out of it' the next day. . . .

Perhaps it was due to the mild depression of having to go back to the "day job"?

I've b-b-been d-d-doing this f-f-for years, and haven't s-s-suffered any i-i-ill effects. ;)

David Vickery
4-Jul-2006, 10:07
Andre,
Yes I to sometimes felt kind of sickly after being in the darkroom for a long time when using acetic acid and ammonia based stop baths and fixers. During the summer when it was warmer in the house I would sometimes feel nausias and get headaches.

I solved the problems by switching to either a water bath for stop or a citric acid stop bath. As for the fix, I started mixing my own TF-2 type fixer (but with ammonium thiosulphate) and I sometimes I ad Citric Acid to it as well (mainly for printing). This keeps the fixer slightly acidic plus there is almost no ammonia aroma or other noxious fumes.

As far as the problems with the paper, there was definitly something wrong there, but I don't see how a normal alkaline fixer could have caused those problems.

Ole Tjugen
4-Jul-2006, 11:08
I tried TF-4 once to compare it to my own mix. I'll stick to my own OF-1; it's far less smelly!

It's a sodium thiosulfate fixer, with an addition of ammonium chloride to "speed it up". I then adjust the pH by adding any one of several alkalis, depending on the rest of the process and the "pH of the day" of the wash water.

Maybe I should have renamed it to "OF-1.33" by now...

Chris Strobel
4-Jul-2006, 13:03
Years ago as a teenager I spent 4-6 hours a day in my small garage darkroom printing.The darkroom was/is about the size of a small apartment bathroom.It had no vents in it.Rapid fix was my brew of choice along with dektol and acetic acid stop.I developed severe lung pain and was seen by my doctor who took a lung x-ray.I had developed some kind of benign nodule in my lung.I forget the exact diagnosis as this was 30+ years ago.Several weeks later with no darkroom work it went away.After that my folks installed a beefy fan in the darkroom.I never had the problem again.The exact cause of my ailment was never known.Of course smoking cigaretts during printing sessions I'm sure didn't help either :)

Glenn Thoreson
4-Jul-2006, 18:05
More than fixer stink, you should worry about the gas emitted naturally by the developing/printing process. I'm not a chemist and I don't remember the name of the gas, but I will tell you this, a town near here has sirens all over the place to alert residents of an escape of this gas from a nearby refinery. Evacuation time. Same gas - smaller quantity - just as bad for you.

Donald Qualls
5-Jul-2006, 20:01
I ran out of rapid fixer today, and discovered my backup jug wasn't Polymax RT Fixer and Replenisher, but instead was Polymax RT *Developer* and Replenisher, so I spent today's darkroom session with plain hypo. In the process, I discovered something interesting (related to smelling the hypo): I alkalized the first batch I mixed with a teaspoon of sodium carbonate in the liter of fixer, and it lasted for a dozen prints and then was tossed out. The second batch, I decided to leave out the alkali -- and after only three prints, it started to get milky and smell like sulfur. Sulfur precipitation is *BAD* in fixer, so I tossed that, mixed a fresh batch with a teaspoon of sodium sulfite in the liter of fixer, and refixed the last print, and it lasted the rest of the session (another seven prints over a couple hours).

What I found interesting is that the fixer lasted for its expected capacity (and more than two hours in the tray) when strongly alkaline, but when initially almost neutral, began to break down very quickly (I presume due to carry over of stop bath and lack of preservative). I think I knew, somewhere in the back of my head, that fixer needs a preservative -- I don't think I'd consciously connected that with fixer breaking down and precipitating sulfur if unpreserved in an acidic solution; I've never previously tried to use plain hypo without alkalizing the solution.

What clued me wasn't so much the milkiness -- I though I'd just made too flat a print (though it was fine on contrast when I pulled it out of the tray) -- but the smell...

darter
6-Jul-2006, 08:24
Man, I would use on of the "odorless" fixer formulations. Clayton Chemicals makes one and so does Sprint.

Bruce Watson
6-Jul-2006, 08:44
With all the information the science and engineering community has published about chemicals and toxic effects, you have to be a complete nut case to work in a darkroom without ventilation. Really, don't be stupid. Install a fan.

And don't confuse the level of odor with the level of various chemical vapors. Lack of odor does not automatically equate to lack of danger.

Come on people. You know better.

Donald Qualls
6-Jul-2006, 11:26
With all the information the science and engineering community has published about chemicals and toxic effects, you have to be a complete nut case to work in a darkroom without ventilation. Really, don't be stupid. Install a fan.

And don't confuse the level of odor with the level of various chemical vapors. Lack of odor does not automatically equate to lack of danger.

Come on people. You know better.

Dektol, acetic acid stop bath, and alkaline plain hypo. No aldehydes, no SO2, just a little acetic acid. If salad dressing doesn't hurt me, I'm really not worried about my particular chemicals. And if I can only work in a ventilated darkroom, I have *no* darkroom -- I have a bathroom with a cover over the window, weatherstrip around the door and a towel over the crack at the bottom. Plenty dark to handle high speed film, but given it's a rental house and I can't make permanent alterations (like installing a light trapped vent in the door) an exhaust fan wouldn't make any difference even if I had one -- and the window cover won't stay in place with the window open, even if it had a vent in it.

Same old story -- do what you can with what you have, or take up an MMORPG and sit in front of my computer until I have a heart attack during a fierce battle in which I'm moving my mouse hand more than usual...

Donald Qualls
6-Jul-2006, 11:31
More than fixer stink, you should worry about the gas emitted naturally by the developing/printing process. I'm not a chemist and I don't remember the name of the gas, but I will tell you this, a town near here has sirens all over the place to alert residents of an escape of this gas from a nearby refinery. Evacuation time. Same gas - smaller quantity - just as bad for you.

Glenn, I'd be very interested in what gas that is. I wasn't aware of development emitting any gas, though acid fixers to give up a tiny bit of sulfur dioxide -- which can be a big problem to people with sensitive lungs, but doesn't bother me enough to notice. Hydrogen sulfide is *very* nasty -- more toxic than hydrogen cyanide, and you lose the ability to smell it at all long before it reaches toxic concentration (your nose simply overloads) -- but common processing doesn't produce any.

Ole Tjugen
6-Jul-2006, 11:33
Come on people. You know better.

Some of us know how to read a MSDS and work out the real risk involved. My darkroom is unventilated.

The main reason I use plain water instead of a (acetic acid) stop is that I don't like the smell. I've also adjusted my own fixer recipe to be as odorless as possible for reasons of comfort.

The only thing I NEVER use in the darkroom is Viradon. Again it's more due to smell than toxicity!

Andre Noble
6-Jul-2006, 14:06
My 'wet side' is exactly as DQ describes his. Am renting. If my own house, ventilation would go in YESTERDAY.

At the end of a looong day, can taste the sulfur in saliva. either from fumes or hands in fixer occasionally. Mild headache and mild funky feeling either comes from those sulfur coponds in the blood, dehydration, intense focusing, or it's my imagination.

It realy feels like a wine hangover.

Chris Strobel
6-Jul-2006, 15:36
Well in 1977 there wasn't a lot of information floating around on the web regarding this ;)


With all the information the science and engineering community has published about chemicals and toxic effects, you have to be a complete nut case to work in a darkroom without ventilation. Really, don't be stupid. Install a fan.

And don't confuse the level of odor with the level of various chemical vapors. Lack of odor does not automatically equate to lack of danger.

Come on people. You know better.