WD2D+ and Jobo/rotary development

[David R Munson]

I've been wanting to try this developer for a long time, and am finally ready to do so, but at current I only have the facilities to do drum development (no darkroom in which to do trays). I've heard that WD2D works well for rotary processing, though possibly with the addition of some chemicals (refer to a photo.net thread here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004J4O&tag=)). Who has experience using wither WD2D or WD2D+ in a Jobo tank? I would be using it with TXP and possibly also with Efke 25. What say you, forum?

[robert]

David, Wd2d is a great developer. I use it extensively with brush development. Which is very much like rotary. The sole purpose of brush development is move spent developer from the surface of the film so new developer will replace it as you brush. You are not really brushing the emulsion, (that's if you are using enough developer for this process) rotary development is basically doing the same thing. Wd2d is not recommended for stand development because it was developed for this type of constant agitation. And its stain is beautiful. I think you will be pleased with this developer once you realize its potential. Read about temp variables with w2d2. you can really kick it in the butt using it at warmer temps.Like with any of the pyro developers- once you learn its characteristics you can dial in just about any film density you want for the process you're working in. Good luck and have fun, Robert

[Andre Noble]

Who has experience using wither WD2D or WD2D+ in a Jobo tank? I would be using it with TXP

I have some experience. I found excessive base fog in 120 roll film trial, even at the slowest Jobo rotation speeds. Give it a try, it may work for you. (I don't actually believe it wil, I'm just saying this to be P.C.):)

I would wager Kodak TXP Tri-x 320 in a Jobo in Wd2D+ will be downright aweful, actually.

For Kodak Tri-X TXP 320, I would recommend rating it at ASA 160, and developing in your Jobo with Pyrocat HD, which I have found to be 'rotary process friendly'. But even with Pyrocat HD, you want to rotate the drum as slow as it will run.

Because TXP is a 'low contrast' film, in order to use Pyrocat, I recommend trying to boost contrast a little in the TXP by changing the pyrocat mixture to a 1:2:100 concentration for starters (For all other films, go with 1:1:100).

[Andre Noble]

Read about temp variables with w2d2. you can really kick it in the butt using it at warmer temps..., Robert

That may be a useful tip. I used WD2D+ a few weeks ago at slightly higher than recommended temp, and got undesirable, super dense negatives. Perhaps it was that extra 2 or 4 degrees Fahrenheit?:(

I agree, when you use it right in hand inversion, i have found the WD2D+ is a real wonderful developer. Fantastic.

[David R Munson]

Robert/Andre: what films have you found WD2D+ (or Pyrocat HD, for that matter) to work well with? While I love TXP, I am not set on it.

[Andre Noble]

Robert/Andre: what films have you found WD2D+ (or Pyrocat HD, for that matter) to work well with?

David, from personal testing and experience I rate the film's ASA the same for both WD2D+ (1:1:50) and Pyrocat HD (1:1:100) as follows:

Excellent:

Ilford PanF - I rate Pan F at ASA 20. PanF is outstanding in these two developers+
Ilford FP4+ - rate ASA 32 Outstanding. Perhaps the best film.
Ilford HP5+ rate ASA 160 Sharp, nice small grain, subtle good highlights

Kodak Tri-X (TX400) rate ASA 200
Kodak Plus-X (125PX) rate ASA 40
Both the Kodak these films look great in Pyro -perhaps even nicer than Ilford, depending on your tatse. Nice gradation in midtones creates "colored" B&W photographs.

Very Good:

Agfa APX 100 rate ASA 32 Also excellent, be sure not to underexpose even by a stop Agfa 100 gets thin real fast.


Not that Good:

Kodak TXP, rate ASA 125. Flat. Use traditional developer instead or Pyrocat at 1:2:100.

No Experience:

Modern 'T-Grain Films': (Kodak T-MAX, or Ilord Delta.)

[David R Munson]

Andre - thanks a bunch for the information. I am also a big fan of FP4, so I think I may pick some up for this experiment. Any time/temp notes on this film in WD2D+?

[sanking]

Guys,

If you are getting too much B+F or general stain from rotary development there are two remedies that will alleviate the problem with most staining developers. The first is to slow down the RPM of the motor base to as slow as possisble. The second is to increase the amount of A solution in the working by about 50%. With Pyrocat-HD for example, instead of 1:1:100 use 1.5:1:100. This will make the working solution more energetic so reduce time of development a bit.

Sandy

[David R Munson]

What sort of RPM are we talking about when you say as slow as possible? I roll the tank by hand at this point, so slow isn't an issue...

[sanking]

What sort of RPM are we talking about when you say as slow as possible? I roll the tank by hand at this point, so slow isn't an issue...

If possible slow down the speed of rotation to 5-10 RPM. You should not have a problem rolling by hand.

Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi David.

The pnet thread you linked is an old one, and much has happened in the pyro world since. It's interesting that Jorge's modifications of WD2D for rotary development include the addition of ascorbic acid, along with EDTA and KBr. 510-Pyro contains pyrogallol, ascorbic acid and phenidone ( no need for a restrainer, and no need for EDTA since it is made up in TEA) in a single solution that is diluted with water to make a working solution, but unlike Jorge's modified WD2D, 510-Pyro works equally well in trays and rotary processors, without modification. King's recommended remedy might be a good one, or it might not, only testing will tell. Pyro developers are not catechol developers, and what works with one might not work in the same way with the other. One thing that is true of all two-solution developers, is that the second solution adds an order of magnitude in complexity to testing, since every variable must be tested against every other variable. Good luck.

Jay

[sanking]

The increase in the ratio of Stock A to Stock B has been specifically recommended as a remedy for excess oxidation for PMK, with rotary processing. See Anchell and Troop, The Film Developing Cookbook, p. 77. Troop and Anchell recommend a 30% increase in Sock A, but in my own work with PMK with rotary processing I found a 50% increase to be more effective. And just for the record, PMK was my primary developer for almost a decade and during that time I learned a lot about what works and does not work with pyrogallol based developers.

Adding a small amount of ascorbic to the working solution has also been suggested as a remedy for rotary processing, but Gordon Hutchings' research indicates that ascorbic acid reduces adjacency effects with pyrogallol. He writes, "While phenidone and ascorbic acid are more superadditive with pyro than metol, this research shows that Phenidone, and particulary ascorbic acid, decreases edge effects and image stain as their concentrations are increased." (Gordon Hutchings, The Book of Pyro, p. 56).


Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

Troop and Anchell recommend a 30% increase in Sock A, but in my own work with PMK with rotary processing I found a 50% increase to be more effective.

Which is why I wrote:


King's recommended remedy might be a good one, or it might not, only testing will tell.


"While phenidone and ascorbic acid are more superadditive with pyro than metol, this research shows that Phenidone, and particulary ascorbic acid, decreases edge effects and image stain as their concentrations are increased."

I would not dispute the above, but would add that the same is true of any reducer, including metol. Anyone who has gone to the trouble to compare PMK negs to 510-Pyro negs can readily see that the concentrations of ascorbic acid and phenidone in 510-Pyro do not reduce image stain or sharpness compared to PMK. General stain, and film speed, however, are another story; 510-Pyro produces far less general stain, and better film speed than PMK does, which might be important to some users.

Jay

[steve simmons]

There is a Rollo Pyro formula designed for rotary processing that is available fom Bostick and Sullivan.


steve simmons

[robert]

David, I use it with efke pl100 and JandC 400. Also Sandy is spot on about increaseing part A to reduce stain. Andre, Wd2d will be effected by temp. In the original formula John makes mention and also gives you a graph of how to compensate for times with the temp changes. A couple of degrees can make a big difference You can find this in Formulary's tech. info page under w2d2. Not the new w2d2+. There are two sets of instructions on that page so make sure you open the right one. It is a beautiful developer as is most pyro formulas. The trick is to pick one and work with it long enough to know how it will react in any given situation.

[robert]

Sorry that should read wd2d....But I've written wd40 before, so at least I was closer than that. To much vino for dinner I guess. Anyway have fun with it

[Andre Noble]

Sandy, no major issues here with Pyrocat HD in Jobo.

'Problem' was with WD2D+ - negatives in Jobo they were useable, but noticeable of base fog.

For David M.:

FP4+ rated ASA 32 - Use a 2 or 3 minute pre-soak, then develop in (1:1:50) of WD2D+ at 68F for 7 minutes, hand inversion.

WD2D+ likes frequent inversion. Be sure to fill tank to very top, minimizes oxidation, hence aerial fogging. So I invert continuously for first 15 sends, then for appx. 2 seconds each 15 seconds for duration of development time. It's labor intensive, but worth it.

[Robert Brummitt]

I've been told by Mr. Wimberley that his WD2D+ is not for the Jobo system. He would suggests doing tray development. He's build his custom made slosher trays for his 5x7 negs. I personaly use Rollo Pyro for my jobo tanks. WD2D+ and PMK for my roll tanks.

[David R Munson]

Alas, having no darkroom, the Jobo tank is the only option I have currently.

[David R Munson]

OK, so I received my WD2D+ and Pyrocat HD from Photographer's Formulary late last week. I also now have some test negatives ready to soup. I'm going to wait on the WD2D+ until I get my hands on some FP4, but in the mean time I'm going to try the 4x5 TXP in Pyrocat HD. Does anyone have any good starting points for development with this combination? Just ballpark and I can adjust from there.

[Robert Brummitt]

OK, so I received my WD2D+ and Pyrocat HD from Photographer's Formulary late last week. I also now have some test negatives ready to soup. I'm going to wait on the WD2D+ until I get my hands on some FP4, but in the mean time I'm going to try the 4x5 TXP in Pyrocat HD. Does anyone have any good starting points for development with this combination? Just ballpark and I can adjust from there.

I find I cut my processing time in Wd2d+ by a minute or minute and half for most films. I guess I agitate a bit strong but I like my negs to be flat and control the contrast in printing.

I'm currenty scanning negs from the 30's that are pyro and they work so well. My boss is shocked by the beauty of the negs and how the skin tones are smooth.

[David R Munson]

A bit of follow-up.

Thanks to working like mad, travel, and honestly a bit of ennui, I have still yet to run the film I mentioned earlier in the thread through WD2D+ or Pyrocat HD. However, I have souped some 35mm film in WD2D+ and scanned some of the results last night. I am quite pleased thus far, though my 4990 isn't getting along all too well with some of the denser negatives.

Here's a sample shot. 35mm HP5+ at EI 200, Nikon F3 or F4 (I can't remember which), 50mm f/1.2.

http://static.flickr.com/79/206318082_a783223fff.jpg
More can be found here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidrmunson/).