Interested in Starting Out

[adamwiener]

Hey Everyone, I'm knew to here and fairly new to Large Format. I've used 2 LF cameras before, but I'm looking into buying one soon. What do you suggest for someone who just wants a simple, cheap (less than $300 with lens and camera, and it can be used) camera that can be used for lanscapes. What focal length do you use for that? With my Nikon (I mainly shoot Digital SLR) I use a prime 50mm f/1.4 - is there anything comperable to that and cheap (key word!)

Anyway, thanks for your help/reading.

Adam Wiener
PS If you'd like, you can see some of the photo work I've done at http://photofusiondenver.com

[Sheldon N]

See if you can find a Busch Pressman or Crown/Speed/Super Graphic press camera with a 135mm lens (roughly equivalent to a 35mm lens in 35mm terms). You should be able to get one for around $300 on Ebay. You could use that for a while, and sell it for about the same price when you are done or decide to upgrade. Another option might be a cheap Cambo/Calumet monorail at $150-200, with another $100 that could go towards an older 150mm lens. That would be a little less portable, though.

Good luck!

[John Kasaian]

probably a Calumet monorail would be cheaper than a good working Speed Graphic. For a good undervalued lens consider a 162mm Wollensak Velostigmat or the newer Raptar (coated) If you look hard you might find a 203 Ektar under $200. The 127 Ektar is cheap and plentiful but don't have any wiggle room on a 4x5.

[Nick_3536]

B&J press camera. More movements then your average press camera. Easier to carry then the monorail. Cheap.

With some time you should easily get a B&J and then buy a used modern lens in the range of 135mm to 210mm.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Decent monorails go fairly cheap, but they are not very portable, IMO. For feild use, I think the Crown Graphic, despite lack of rear and some front movements, is overall the toughest and simplest to use 4x5 camera ever made.

Also, the lack of some movements on the Crown Graphic, IMO, make it an easier camera to learn LF on - at least for some people. It's pretty hard to mess up with a Crown Graphic. As for other "press cameras" I have owned and used Speed Graphics and Super Graphics, and i still think the Crown the best one overall. Despite owning about four, 4x5 cameras, I've never sold or even thought of selling my Crown - there's still times it comes in useful.

I reccomend a good 135mm lens to start. I think that is th emost sueful lens ever made for 4x5 shooting. However, very good used lenses in 150 and 210mm often show up so if the price is right, don't be afraid to start with one of those. But look for a newer lens, stay away from the "old classics" as unless you know what you are getting, they can be more trouble than they are worth, or you will find because they are a "classic" lens, they command a premium price that IMO, is often unreasonable. As much as I loved my old Kodak 135mm WF Ektar, I sold it and bought a new Rodenstock Sironar 135mm.

joe

[Ted Harris]

The where part is just as important as the what part. Otherd have already pointed you to somegood inexpensive options and there are others. Wehre you buy your initial camera is also important. You canget it on eBay and maybe save a few dollars or from a reputable dealer and have the luxury of returning it if it is not what you want or expected. Call Jim at Midwest Photo Exchange .... they are the absolute best for LF used equipment and always have a large selection of reasonably priced used equipment. 614-261-1264. He will assist you in your purchase and take it back ifyou don't like it.

[steve simmons]

Before you buy a camera may I suggest some reading

Using the View Camera that I wrote or Jack Dykinga's book Large Format Nature Photography. Try your local library.. I would stay away from the Strobel book View Camera Technique as an intro book, it is a tome IMHO, Jim Stone has a book User's Guide to the View Camera that is another one I recommend.

Go to the View Camera web site and then to the Free Articles section. There are several articles that might be very helpful to you


www.viewcamera.com


good luck


steve simmons

[Ron Marshall]

There is lots of very good information on the front page of this site. As Ted said, buy from a reputable dealer, Midwest, and Jim are very good.

[Dawid]

Hi

I got a Crown Graphic of ebay for less than $200 and it is in very good nick. Has a 135mm Optar lens which is a very handy length, something like a 40mm in 35mm terms and thus a good all rounder to get one into things until you know what you really want.
Something I can recommend is a Grafmatic back ( ideally in good condition with straight septums ) - it makes life so (!) much easier as you can load 6 shots in advance and cycle rapidly through them. Also have a Readyload, but film for that is much more expensive.

Of late been shooting handheld HP5+ ( really what press cameras were made for ) and I think there is lots of potential.

I also considered monorails, but am very glad I got the crown as it folds up reasonably compact in very strong / robust box shape which packs easily + sets up very quickly.

Enjoy !
Dawid

[Capocheny]

Before you buy a camera may I suggest some reading

Using the View Camera that I wrote or Jack Dykinga's book Large Format Nature Photography. Try your local library.. I would stay away from the Strobel book View Camera Technique as an intro book, it is a tome IMHO, Jim Stone has a book User's Guide to the View Camera that is another one I recommend.
steve simmons

Excellent advice... especially if you want to make sure you're not going down the wrong path! :)

I especially second the comment on the Strobel book... it's NOT an introductory book by any stretch of the imagination!

Cheers

[adamwiener]

Hi everyone - thanks for the posts.

I'm currently looking on eBay for the following cameras and I may bid on one of them. Tell me what you think :cool:

Leitz Wetzlar 120 View Camera ($21.60 so far)
Graflex Crown Graphic 4X5 W/ Schneider 135mm f/4.7 lens ($147 so far)
Linhof Super Technika III 4X5 Camera - CAM for
90mm lens installed (what is cam?) ($48 so far)
Calumet 4x5 Large Format Camera with 90mm
f/6.8 Graphex and 165mm f/6.3 Calumet Caltar lens ($120 so far)


What do you think of these and their total prices? Which one do you think I'd be best off buying? I'm also looking into film processing and found a place that will do it in 24hrs for $1.65 US - it's called Reed Photo.

Tell me if you have any other suggestions. Thanks!

[Scott Kathe]

Adam,

I found a Crown with the same lens you are looking at from someone who sold it for only $200. The camera is in fantastic shape and very easy to use but my only other experience is a Bender 4x5 I built from a kit. The Bender has a ton of movements I can't get out of the Crown but if I were to do it again I would start with the Crown and probably go up to $300 for the condtion my camera is in.

Processing b&w film is not at all difficult. The tray method works well for me in the darkroom. For daylight developing the taco method that I learned about from Jay de Fur thank Jay!) works quite well: you essentially fold the film into a u shape and hold it with rubber bands, you can put four sheets in a Patterson film developing tank and process like roll film. I got my Patterson tank off the auction site for $12 I think.

Good luck and remember to have fun!

[adamwiener]

Thanks for your help, Scott. Now I'm thinking of trying to develop myself - what supplies do you think I will need? I know a developing tank and developer, but how do I do it or where could I learn? Is there a good (visual!) website that could help me out? Again, thanks for your help.

[Sheldon N]

Here's a good price on a Busch Pressman with 127mm Ektar lens, $245 Buy-it-now. The auction # is 260002482052.

For 4x5 black & white developing, I followed these plans and made myself a couple daylight developing tubes. They work great if you aren't shooting a large volume of negatives...

http://medfmt.8k.com/brontube.html

[Jean-Louis Llech]

Several years ago, Steve's book was the first one I opened (1992 edition) to understand what LF was. It was an invaluable help, and I thank him for that.

[Scott Kathe]

Adam,

If you go to the View Camera website (www.viewcamera.com) click on free articles and scroll down to View Camera Basics: Processing black and white film and open the PDF file and read it. I would also suggest you read Getting Started in Large Format Photography as well and anything else that you may be interested in. You should also probably do a search on loading 4x5 film holders. All the large format information may seem to be too much but break it down and think about it one step at a time and it's actually quite fun:)

Scott

[Ron Marshall]

Developing b/w is very easy. I use a Jobo Expert drum, they are about $150 on ebay, but you can use a tray for $10 if you are careful. The Jobo allows processing with the lights on, and is easy to load, fill, drain and is more economical with the chemistry. Trays work well also, but you must probess in the dark.

[Jay W]

I say be very careul. I was completely happy shooting 120, but got blind sided by 4x5. I bought a couple 4x5 enlargers (and lenses) in the 80s, and the guy threw in 20 4x5 holders for $20. Then another friend handed me some rubber tanks and hangers a few years later. Finally I was handed a Crown Graphic with a dead lens in 1998 and I decided to buy a replacement lens so I could actually try out all the 4x5 gear that people were handing me for 15 years. On a trip out west, I shot all 120, and just a few sheets of 4x5 to test out the system.

When the negs hit the light table, I was hooked. When the slides hit the table, I was floored.

8x10 scares me,

Jay Wenner

[Dawid]

Hi

Personally I would stay away from the Linhof III. Read some reviews on Graphics vs. Linhof Techs at cameraquest.com - interessting. Linhofs are heavy and decent/newer ones tend to be expensive. Ultimately you might want to get one but you also might decide to go the opposite way and get a wooden view camera etc.

Dawid

[Ed K.]

Hi Adam -

Everything everybody else said was great too - all good advice, and from people who really know what they are talking about. Definitely read the articles suggested.

A few more thoughts -

The Crown Graphic is a good recommendation to try out. If you end up with a Speed Graphic, it is much heavier - although it's focal plane shutter does let you use inexpensive barrel lenses. As I have a Speed Graphic, I can tell you that its heaviness, even when stripped down, is a real deal killer most of the time, even though the novelty of the focal plane shutter is at times terrific. Speeds are usually cheaper than Crowns in the same condition.

If you find a Toyo CF that somebody doesn't want ( new, they are about 600 bucks ), you can work on your initial technique, score some lenses, and if you like get yourself a really cool body later. People laugh at me for owning a Toyo CF ( or sneer behind my back ), however it does the trick for all kinds of outdoor photography and it cost very little. It is essentially a plastic Crown Graphic with a horizontal/vertical back, bright ground glass, and it takes both Toyo and Canham lens boards ( hint: if you upgrade later to Canham, you've got the boards ). Although I have a Sinar rail camera and a Deardorff 8x10, I really enjoy the Toyo for the lightweight and general shooting utility. For architecture or studio, I use the Sinar.

If you like shooting with a "normal" prime on a full frame DSLR, look at a 150mm. If yours crops the frame and you like the 50 - try a 210mm ( a generally very useful lens to have and commonly available ).

Whatever camera you get, having one that is rather common on the used market can be good, because you can get what you need for it. A $300 buck camera can quickly turn into a $5,000 rig with lenses, pods, accessories and all that. Do budget money for a good tripod and light meter at least if you don't have them.

For landscape work, consider what you can carry vs. how stable it is in the wind, and whether you can be happy working near the car vs. hike someplace. The compromises there will steer you a bit.

Most studio rail cameras make lousey field cameras, and it is a shame to beat up a nice studio camera on field trips. That said, inexpensive rail cameras such as the Sinar F DO come apart, and will pack down pretty small if you take the rail off.

Nobody mentioned getting a pinhole. Silly as it sounds, you can build it or buy it plenty cheap, along with a couple of holders. Sure, different landscapes that you might think... but you could explore loading holders, souping film, and all that with wreckless abandon - mistakes add character to the image. That might be at least fun, and also ease the pain of wasting some film here and there while you dial in your setup.

Try to practice what you read, and learn from mistakes, because in LF, it is likely that you'll make your own fair share of goof ups too. Just enjoy the process, make adjustments, read and keep at it.

[Patrik Roseen]

Hi

Personally I would stay away from the Linhof III. Read some reviews on Graphics vs. Linhof Techs at cameraquest.com - interessting. Linhofs are heavy and decent/newer ones tend to be expensive. Ultimately you might want to get one but you also might decide to go the opposite way and get a wooden view camera etc.

Dawid

I have 4x5" Linhof Super Technika III (model 5 I guess)...and I love it. I do not really understand why people continuously talk bad about it. Yes, I know that the lensplates differ from modern LF-gear, but on the other hand they are so simple in design that almost anyone can make them. For an amateur like me I can not see what more I would get from moving up to a more modern Technika..(Yes I know there are some differences but not enough to convince ME to move up at this stage)

Would be interesting to hear the opinions of other previous/current Technika III users.

[Ernest Purdum]

Large format use varies from landscapes, which demand very little use of movements, to architectural views which require a wide selection of lenses with lots of excess coverage to allow very full use of movements.


If you are interested in landscapes only, the B&J or a Crown Graphic that several peiple have recommended would get the job done. The B&J nearly always goes cheaper and is a little more versatile, as Nick mentioned. Although the 135mm f4.7 or f4.5 lenses matches the capabilities of the Crown Graphic, they don't have the excess coverage needed for any use of movements. There are, however, 135mm lenses which do. You can spot them because they have a somewhat smaller maximum aperture, f5.6 to f9. Most longer lenses permit use of front tilt which is often useful in landscape work and is available on the B&J.


If your interests extend beyond landscape work, a more versatile camera would be desirable. Unfortunately, the less expensive of these are more awkward to carry and less rugged than those mentioned earlier. You would have to balance the various factors to decide what would be the best compromise for you. In the monorails, the older Calumet series is often available on eBay for about $125.00 or so. In folding cameras, the later B&J and ANSCO cameras are possibilities. These, particularly the B&J, have useful movements. There are potential problems, however. They have extension rails which seem to be missing more often than not, and it is very important that they extend smoothly over the joints of the bed and the extension. It is common for them to become misaligned when crossing over. This very quickly wears out the pinions.

The best advice you have received so far is to invest in a book (cheap) before a camera and/or lens (costly). If you send me your mailing address, I will send you without charge a booklet on choosing view camera lenses (cheapest).