Starting a Workshop - Basic Info

[Frank Petronio]

I am starting to get interesting in starting a workshop series with a few other people. Just doing a prelim biz plan now. Does anyone have any good info and links for some of the smaller, more personalized traveling workshops available online? Or care to share some insights and links directly?

thanks, FP

[QT Luong]

Michael Reichman wouldn't be a bad example to follow :-) His travelling workshops always seem to sell out quite fast despite a fairly hefty cost. He also lends an hand to
other workshop organizers who have worked with him directly or indirectly.

[Kirk Gittings]

I've been through this.The biggest cost up front is advertising, which can quickly eat up any potential profits. Without widespread and consistent advertising you can't reach the potential students. Press releases can only go so far and get you small listings, but they are not enough as the web also is not enough. As a result I personally only do workshops that I am not financially responsible for the marketing i.e. View Camera, Santa Fe Photographic etc. Some people do trade outs with magazines, writing articles in trade for workshop ad space. You can figure out who I am talking about pretty easily by looking at VC or Darkroom techniques etc. Then are issues with insurance etc. It is actually not as easy to make a profit as one might think.

Though I love teaching, I came to the conclusion that, financially speaking, commercial photography was a far better investment of my time and marketing.

[Allen Rumme]

It is actually not as easy to make a profit as one might think.

I have to agree with Kirk. I was involved with SouthWest Photographic Workshops in the late 80's and early 90's. I don't recall that we ever made enough money to cover all the instructor's expenses, advertising, handout materials and supplies, let alone make a profit. Don't get me wrong, we had great students and had lots of fun teaching but making money just wasn't in the cards. Insurance requirements, and the potential cost, are what put us out of business. There was just too much personal risk, even had we been able to afford the necessary insurance, to continue.

Allen

[robc]

I have no personal experience but my observations are that some landscape/wildlife photographers who are trying to make money out of their photography, end up running photographic holidays with instruction included. My guess is that the profit is made on the holiday cost and not the teaching and that it also finances the costs of travel and accomodation for yourself to the location to make your own images.

If I'm not mistaken, our list owner is going this route.

here's one example http://www.lightandland.co.uk

You could always try and get on the books of a company doing similar things or perhaps offer to run a course in the US for them. That way your initial costs would be minimised and they do all the advertising and admin. That kind of makes it a no lose scenario for you.

[Frank Petronio]

I hate to sound like one of those old guys, but I actually would like to do a model-based workshop that isn't sleazy. I guess I am thinking that well-heeled togs would pay good money to do things professionally, and some of the better models I've talked to agree.

But I am just tossing out the idea to see what comes up.

I'm think five days at a nicer place in Santa Fe with one NY model per three togs, in the field each day, but with a catered lunch, assistants and guides. Like $3000 per.

Possible?

I've been teaching at the Visual Studies Workshops (only republican there) and have done them at ICP, Maine, Palm Beach. I know there isn't money in it but it is fun.

[Ralph Barker]

You might be doing your market research within the wrong community, Frank. Once you define the scope of the workshop more tightly, you could then get responses from people who fit those parameters.

There are several people I know who are doing non-LF "workshops" with models, both outdoors and in a studio. You might poke around in the general photography forums oriented to art nudes and glamour to see what they are doing. Typically, however, the duration is shorter than you're describing, and the cost an order of magnitude less. At $3K, your market might be limited to wealthy doctors and dentists who dabble in photography.

[Hans Berkhout]

Ralph I strongly object to your stereotyping. I'll restrain myself from further comment.

Hans Berkhout MD.

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah, don't scare the customers away Ralph!

I know about the Bob Shell style stuff that is like $1000 but those are abit primative. basically I want to do something that the guys can come with their wives on and they all feel good about it. I think if it was really professional and upscale it would work better than the versa.

But yeah, it's not a money thing. It actually more of a model's idea to help make a living. They actually support themselves (and kids!) with this.

[Bruce Barlow]

Frank, some ideas based on our experience at Fine Focus workshops. I can't comment on figures, being way too shy to have ever even attempted to do such things...

First, don’t quit your day job. We feel advertising is of limited value, and we’ve relied on word-of-mouth to grow enrollment. That’s a long, slow process. It’s still underway.

We have four Fine Focus workshops a year, and we stay close to home. For openers, the photographing is always fine here in Vermont and New Hampshire (except when we get eleven inches of rain as we did last October). We always have a backup plan for rain, which is made easier when we have my darkroom, gallery space, and house. Not to mention a tour of Richard Ritter’s shop, and his Camera Clinic, where Richard does repair and tuning magic. Traveling. Wow. That would be challenging.

Our guide has been Brooks Jensen’s article “How to Make a Workshop Work,” which I got off the web years ago from someplace other than LensWork. It may be available on the LensWork site, I don’t know. In it, Brooks discusses what one should look for, prepare for, and do to make a workshop as valuable as possible. We’ve tried to shape the Fine Focus experience to agree with his ideas.

Our biggest thing: we don’t photograph on attendee’s time. We think it’s wrong to get money from folks who expect coaching and then show up to see the instructors put their own cameras over their shoulders and leave attendees unattended. We have heard incredible horror stories about just that. Our attendees get us, full time. That would be harder in some other wonderful place, as with a traveling workshop. It’s easier close to home, where we can just go back later.

Our handout material runs over 100 pages, and I’m busy revising and expanding it, mostly with more exercises. In the late 80s when I was at Zone VI, I begged Fred Picker to update his “Zone VI Workshop” book, but he never did. That’s in the back of my mind as I revise, but I would in no way claim that I have done that. Inspiration differs from execution. Nevertheless, a recent attendee said that our handout materials were “among the best he’d seen,” which I took as a personal challenge. Ours need to be THE best, and I suspect we’ll get there.

We recently created a special curriculum for alumni. We seem to have a high percentage of folks return for more punishment with us, and I felt they needed a different experience that recognizes that they’ve already suffered through us once. Based on their progress in the intervening time, I felt they needed more substantial challenges and a clear direction for what to do next. I think we’re even ready for Peter Shrager, which is not easy for someone of his caliber and talent.

We’ve created a pre-attendance package that we’ll mail out from now on. It includes a detailed picture of the workshop experience, suggestions for expectations and how they should approach their time with us, and OUR expectations for what we want from them. We think the clarity will be a good thing.

We’re blessed with staff who fill different roles by natural inclination. Richard Ritter has forgotten more about photography than I know, can make or fix anything photographic, and is a marvelous, sensitive photographer. Ted Harris can hang ‘em on the wall with anyone, is expert with large format scanning and output, and is our go-to guy for lenses, cameras, and gadgets. I’m the schedule-keeper, taskmaster, and loudmouth, unafraid to be pedantic when needed. We mesh well, and students get different perspectives within some common themes. Mostly, we are completely open with everything we know. Nothing is held back. Why should it be? I am consistently surprised at what our students produce. They don’t see the same way I do, and so our pictures will always be different. If I can coach them to expand their own abilities, the world will be a better place overall, and they will never have “stolen” a single one of my images. Similarly, I’d be thrilled to have students become better photographers than I am. It’s a credit to my coaching, at least a little. Shrager may well be there, and good for him. A couple others are on the way, I think.

All that said, we’re going “on the road” to Pittsburg, New Hampshire in late September to have a Fall Foliage workshop away from familiar environs. I’ve already gone up there once to scout, Ted Harris is very familiar with the area, and we’ll all go up there in July or August to plan what we’ll do and where we’ll go. We’re trying it. We’ll see how it works. I’m already thinking about rain and other contingencies. We’ll be ready.

Frank, that’s the best I can offer. I’d be happy to talk more, but that’s probably best done by phone. I don’t look at workshops as a competitive arena: all of you who’ve read this far should attend as many workshops as you can. And if all workshops are good, you’ll want to. So for the good of us all, I’m happy to share anything I know with anybody. Sabotaging someone else just isn’t on the agenda. Besides, no one else will teach things the way we do, or even teach the same things. So the workshop world will therefore contain a wide variety of perspectives, leaving it to prospective attendees to figure out which ones to attend first.

[Ralph Barker]

Hans - there's nothing wrong with doctors and dentists making more than the average Joe or Jill, and no offense was intended. Besides, if it weren't for wealthy folks dabbling in photography, Leica would have gone under years ago. From Frank's workshop perspective, and his idea of providing a "premium" experience, it's just that the market narrows pretty quickly at the price he mentioned.

[Brian Ellis]

At $3000 and an ordinary location (ordinary in the sense that getting there is no big deal for anyone located in the U.S.) you'd better have something unbelievably special. I hate to say it but IMHO the only thing nudity-related that's going to attract customers at that price is going to be something with which you probably don't want to be involved.

[Capocheny]

Frank, some ideas based on our experience at Fine Focus workshops. I can't comment on figures, being way too shy to have ever even attempted to do such things...

First, don’t quit your day job. We feel advertising is of limited value, and we’ve relied on word-of-mouth to grow enrollment. That’s a long, slow process. It’s still underway.

We have four Fine Focus workshops a year, and we stay close to home. For openers, the photographing is always fine here in Vermont and New Hampshire (except when we get eleven inches of rain as we did last October). We always have a backup plan for rain, which is made easier when we have my darkroom, gallery space, and house. Not to mention a tour of Richard Ritter’s shop, and his Camera Clinic, where Richard does repair and tuning magic. Traveling. Wow. That would be challenging.

Our guide has been Brooks Jensen’s article “How to Make a Workshop Work,” which I got off the web years ago from someplace other than LensWork. It may be available on the LensWork site, I don’t know. In it, Brooks discusses what one should look for, prepare for, and do to make a workshop as valuable as possible. We’ve tried to shape the Fine Focus experience to agree with his ideas.

Our biggest thing: we don’t photograph on attendee’s time. We think it’s wrong to get money from folks who expect coaching and then show up to see the instructors put their own cameras over their shoulders and leave attendees unattended. We have heard incredible horror stories about just that. Our attendees get us, full time. That would be harder in some other wonderful place, as with a traveling workshop. It’s easier close to home, where we can just go back later.

Our handout material runs over 100 pages, and I’m busy revising and expanding it, mostly with more exercises. In the late 80s when I was at Zone VI, I begged Fred Picker to update his “Zone VI Workshop” book, but he never did. That’s in the back of my mind as I revise, but I would in no way claim that I have done that. Inspiration differs from execution. Nevertheless, a recent attendee said that our handout materials were “among the best he’d seen,” which I took as a personal challenge. Ours need to be THE best, and I suspect we’ll get there.

We recently created a special curriculum for alumni. We seem to have a high percentage of folks return for more punishment with us, and I felt they needed a different experience that recognizes that they’ve already suffered through us once. Based on their progress in the intervening time, I felt they needed more substantial challenges and a clear direction for what to do next. I think we’re even ready for Peter Shrager, which is not easy for someone of his caliber and talent.

We’ve created a pre-attendance package that we’ll mail out from now on. It includes a detailed picture of the workshop experience, suggestions for expectations and how they should approach their time with us, and OUR expectations for what we want from them. We think the clarity will be a good thing.

We’re blessed with staff who fill different roles by natural inclination. Richard Ritter has forgotten more about photography than I know, can make or fix anything photographic, and is a marvelous, sensitive photographer. Ted Harris can hang ‘em on the wall with anyone, is expert with large format scanning and output, and is our go-to guy for lenses, cameras, and gadgets. I’m the schedule-keeper, taskmaster, and loudmouth, unafraid to be pedantic when needed. We mesh well, and students get different perspectives within some common themes. Mostly, we are completely open with everything we know. Nothing is held back. Why should it be? I am consistently surprised at what our students produce. They don’t see the same way I do, and so our pictures will always be different. If I can coach them to expand their own abilities, the world will be a better place overall, and they will never have “stolen” a single one of my images. Similarly, I’d be thrilled to have students become better photographers than I am. It’s a credit to my coaching, at least a little. Shrager may well be there, and good for him. A couple others are on the way, I think.

All that said, we’re going “on the road” to Pittsburg, New Hampshire in late September to have a Fall Foliage workshop away from familiar environs. I’ve already gone up there once to scout, Ted Harris is very familiar with the area, and we’ll all go up there in July or August to plan what we’ll do and where we’ll go. We’re trying it. We’ll see how it works. I’m already thinking about rain and other contingencies. We’ll be ready.

Frank, that’s the best I can offer. I’d be happy to talk more, but that’s probably best done by phone. I don’t look at workshops as a competitive arena: all of you who’ve read this far should attend as many workshops as you can. And if all workshops are good, you’ll want to. So for the good of us all, I’m happy to share anything I know with anybody. Sabotaging someone else just isn’t on the agenda. Besides, no one else will teach things the way we do, or even teach the same things. So the workshop world will therefore contain a wide variety of perspectives, leaving it to prospective attendees to figure out which ones to attend first.


Bruce,

Where do I sign up? :)

I've just perused your website and will have to look into one of your workshops in the near future!

So much to learn... so little time! :)


Frank,

Good luck! :)

Cheers

[Kirk Gittings]

First, don’t quit your day job. We feel advertising is of limited value, and we’ve relied on word-of-mouth to grow enrollment. That’s a long, slow process. It’s still underway.

This I'm sure works for you guys, but I doubt it would work for most people. The fact that you were involved in the Zone VI Workshops, and the work you have done since then, gives you upfront a fair amount of credibility and name recognition with the LF crowd.

[Bruce Barlow]

This I'm sure works for you guys, but I doubt it would work for most people. The fact that you were involved in the Zone VI Workshops, and the work you have done since then, gives you upfront a fair amount of credibility and name recognition with the LF crowd.

Wow. Kind words, but it doesn't feel that way. Richard has credibility, and should. I got some with the Paper/Developer tests a while back (which is why one writes articles like that). Ted Harris is the LF Scanning Man, and always has lively conversations with students. The Zone VI credential is nice, but it packs less punch than it used to. "Whaddya done lately?" is the relevant question. Hence our foray into videos, for instance (visit www.circleofthesunproductions.com). "But videos will cut into workshop attendance." No, they won't. They'll enhance workshop attendance, as Fred learned after "Printing with Fred Picker" came out. The two experiences have very different natures and motives for viewers and attendees.

Nevertheless, we have yet to be overwhelmed with attendees, although we see steady, if slow, growth. You may have a valid point that it may not work for many people, which is all the more reason to have a reasonable Personal Aggrandizement Strategy. I'll stick with "no paid advertising" because there are ways to get the same impact for free. I'll certainly stick with "don't quit your day job."

But thanks for making me feel more important than I am, Kirk!!

[Frank Petronio]

Thanks for the insights. Based on this and some of the other sniffing around, I'm going to reccomend that they start slower by offering shorter, less expensive workshops and smaller size classes. Their idea is a model-run operation and just cutting out the middle-men, so maybe it would be a good win-win for all if they get it together.

But word-of-mouth and having a good rep seems to be the key, along with having a great website and serious publicity-PR efforts. As for price-point, I agree that the landscape - Zone System shops are less expensive, but have you seen the prices for bike and hiking tours? Like Country Walkers, etc...? Photo Wkshops are a bargain!

[Jack Flesher]

I'm think five days at a nicer place in Santa Fe with one NY model per three togs, in the field each day, but with a catered lunch, assistants and guides. Like $3000 per.

Possible?



Hi Frank -- been there, done that and have the t-shirt. Even had some highly respected names in figure photography leading the main class (I did lighting). Bottom line is even if you include room and all meals, $3K per is a reach. I'd plan on more like $995 per with room and meals on them if you want to fill the workshop. 3 togs per model is about right, but allow scheduling so each tog has at least an hour one-on-one with a model. We did an evening reception/intro, one day in studio and one day on location. Worked well, had a lot of fun, students loved it, models loved it too (it was easy money for them -- these were mostly guild models used to holding poses for 20 minutes for painters, so the relatively instant capture even with a scanning back was a piece of cake for them). But we soon realized we were not going to get rich doing it. Fun yes, revenue generation - not really.

[Frank Petronio]

If I were leading a workshop myself, I think I would do aim for for middle-aged male photographers and would offer the following:

-- How to wear an "air" tie

-- Goatee trimming and pony tail etiquitte

-- Gallery wardrobe

-- Opening small talk

-- and how to write about yourself in the third person

[QT Luong]

As for price-point, I agree that the landscape - Zone System shops are less expensive, but have you seen the prices for bike and hiking tours? Like Country Walkers, etc...? Photo Wkshops are a bargain!

People just seem more willing to pay when travel is involved, maybe because it sounds more like a one-in-a-lifetime experience than a class. Compare the prices of the Reichman (and other associates) workshops, and for instance John Sexton's.

[lee\c]

Since Memorial Day 2005, I have hosted two darkroom workshops taught by Les McLean and one shooting workshop in south Texas concerned with shooting "The Painted Churches of Texas" again with Les McLean. I have done no advertising per se other than announcing the workshop on Apug.org and each workshop has been well attended. We had 14 in the first workshop. The shooting workshop did not have that turnout but broke even and the last workshop over the Memorial Day weekend 06 had 9 which is a more realistic number given my darkroom space. I was able to make money on each endeavor but maybe my number and someone else's number aren't the same. Good luck to all that are out there attempting this.

lee\c