Kill the Lounge! [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Ole Tjugen

21-Jun-2006, 14:52

One of the great things about this forum has been the large "signal-to-noise" ratio" here: This is where you go to find information and answers, and even opinions about LF questions.

The "Lounge" is pure noise: Nothing relevant, and certainly nothing that couldn't have been better slugged out in another forum.

I beg you: KILL THE LOUNGE!

We have a lounge (and a "soap box") over at apug.org. They are well established, and the modeators (including myself, I'm sorry to say) are largely willing to let you slug it out between yorselves. We interfer rarely, except when someone targets "innocent bystanders".

WHY should LFinfo have a "lounge"????

robc

21-Jun-2006, 15:08

thats another good reason for a "core forums" button on the main navbar. Infact, if the unified link only gave "core forums" you could avoid all the noise from other forums unless you specifically wanted to see it. For some reason I don't quite understand, this would not be a popular thing to do from the admin point of view.

Incidentally, I had a look at vbulletin.org and see that there are lots of useful plugins for vbulletin which dont require any major changes to vbulletin code. There's one there for multiline navbars but you can only see what is does if you are a registered vbulletin owner.

Sal Santamaura

21-Jun-2006, 15:13

thats another good reason for a "core forums" button on the main navbar. Infact, if the unified link only gave "core forums" you could avoid all the noise from other forums unless you specifically wanted to see it.I agree with Ole. Kill it. Dead. Now. Why add more buttons to cope with a morass that has nothing to do with LF photography and simply wastes bandwidth.

David A. Goldfarb

21-Jun-2006, 15:15

The old lfphoto.info had an "off topic" category for chit-chat, but it's interesting that it was pretty much neglected, while The Lounge gets more use in the new site. I think that in the text-oriented site it just didn't occur to people to make too many off topic posts, and if they did, it tended to be in the nature of personal announcements I think, while listing "The Lounge" right out there seems a bit more like an invitation, and maybe the title seems to suggest that this is where to discuss religion and politics.

I guess it could be re-titled to steer the discussion away from the minefields while still having a place for people to announce their weddings, births, deaths, retirements, job changes, and such.

Nick_3536

21-Jun-2006, 15:20

There is a lounge? Boy I need new glasses.

Capocheny

21-Jun-2006, 15:21

I don't really care one way or the other whether there's a lounge here or not. But, having said that... there have been the odd interesting thread that originated from The Lounge.

Personally, I'd rather see the "For Sale Listings" set up under a separate, hidden area. :)

Just my 2 cents worth!

Cheers

robc

21-Jun-2006, 15:34

I agree with Ole. Kill it. Dead. Now. Why add more buttons to cope with a morass that has nothing to do with LF photography and simply wastes bandwidth.

As I understand it, the Lounge exists to so that there can be no reason to insert off topic banter in core LF forums. Removing it altogether is likely to result in more OT banter in the core forums.

changing the unified view button to only show "core forums" removes all the OT stuff unless you hit "new posts" or get daily. So all you would need to do is to always use the "core forums" button and the problem goes away as far as you're concerned.

I suspect part of the problem is calling it the lounge as there seem to be a lot of comparisons being made with APUG. Perhaps it should be called "Trivia" then perhaps people wouldn't be so inclined to post there! ;)

Michael Mutmansky

21-Jun-2006, 15:40

The Lounge should go.

Now that it has been purged from my view (ask the moderators to do it for you), I don't know waht caused this thread to start, but I do completely agree with it.

Why? there are people who cirlce around the lounge with little or no true contribution to the rest of the forum. Some of these people take pride in the munber of forums they have been kicked off in the past, and I don't think we should be providing them asylum here.

Get rid of it and stick to LF photography...

---Michael

Scott Knowles

21-Jun-2006, 16:00

One of the great things about this forum has been the large "signal-to-noise" ratio" here: This is where you go to find information and answers, and even opinions about LF questions.

The "Lounge" is pure noise: Nothing relevant, and certainly nothing that couldn't have been better slugged out in another forum.

I beg you: KILL THE LOUNGE!

While I agree the topics and threads in the lounge go off in unusual directions, I don't agree it should be removed. It may be misused and/or abused at times, but overall it's worthwhile to have it for subjects somewhat related, or not. All you have to do is decide not to view it or read the threads. It's not the lounge that's bad, only those who post or respond to off-topic threads. Don't shoot the piano player if people can't dance.

tim atherton

21-Jun-2006, 16:26

Nah - keep the lounge. Get rid of the whiners - that's where all the bandwidth goes.. :-)

Frank Petronio

21-Jun-2006, 17:06

Yeah keep the lounge. if you don't like it don't visit it. Who is it hurting?

If management decides to kill the topics and threads that get the most views and hits, isn't that going against the will of the majority? I mean base it on web stats. By that measure, maybe we should kill off the morbid alternative processes and other lower quantity topics?

To me, killing the lounge sounds like a troll or crank post!

Dan Fromm

21-Jun-2006, 17:11

Ole, I'm sort of with you. I'd be with you more strongly, though, if I ever looked at posts in the lounge. I just avoid it. As long as the lunacy is safely confined there ...

Cheers,

Dan

Michael Daily

21-Jun-2006, 18:23

While I agree the topics and threads in the lounge go off in unusual directions, I don't agree it should be removed. It may be misused and/or abused at times, but overall it's worthwhile to have it for subjects somewhat related, or not. All you have to do is decide not to view it or read the threads. It's not the lounge that's bad, only those who post or respond to off-topic threads. Don't shoot the piano player if people can't dance.

I agree.
Michael Daily

Michael Mutmansky

21-Jun-2006, 18:41

I agree.
Michael Daily

I strongly disagree. The Lounge is providing a forum for knowingly OT posts, and some of these posts become a platform for controversial opinions unassociated with LF photography.

Why waste the bandwidth on a bunch of losers and mental midgets who get off spouting on the internet? If the LF Forum wishes to be the roost for vultures then so be it, but it is not something I have an interest in contributing to. The Lounge taints the entire forum in this manner.

There was a time when this forum was a good place for on-topic discussions with relatively little controversy that anyone outside the LF world would notice. Some individuals have chipped away at that and are continuing to do so through the Lounge in particular.

---Michael

Sal Santamaura

21-Jun-2006, 18:45

If management decides to kill the topics and threads that get the most views and hits, isn't that going against the will of the majority?This is no more a majority rule operation than government in the US is. Ole's suggestion, under the category of "Feedback," was simply input to site's owner. Tuan's decisions are final. It's not how many are speaking/watching that counts, it's who Tuan listens to.

Patrick Quinn

21-Jun-2006, 18:48

The Lounge taints the entire forum in this manner.

There was a time when this forum was a good place for on-topic discussions with relatively little controversy that anyone outside the LF world would notice. Some individuals have chipped away at that and are continuing to do so through the Lounge in particular.

---Michael

Does anyone have a tiny little violin to play a sad sad tune on?

But while we are at it, why not ban a certain person from posting in any threads on Pyro? That would raise the reputation of the list considerably

Frank Petronio

21-Jun-2006, 18:55

Hmm, I only see a few "controversial" threads there. It looks like a lot of the threads are actually pretty tame and good-spirited. Charities, helping people, happy events, Flickr links, etc.

Discussing life and death, war and politics, sex and religion amongst photographers is dangerous though. Innocent photons and electrons are involved, as well as entire molecules and energy waves -- Heaven help us if we corrupt them.

Maybe someone should start a new thread for sharing their Sphincter Relaxation Techniques? It sounds like some people here really need that information.

Or they need to get a life. Griping about the Lounge is even lamer than being one of the "losers" who are active in it.

Oren Grad

21-Jun-2006, 19:00

I don't find the current long-running hit production in the Lounge to be terribly enlightening, and I don't participate in it.

But I don't understand the guilt-by-association thing. On the contrary, I think it's quite admirable that (a) we are able to compartmentalize those discussions pretty cleanly, at least so far, and (b) many folks who appear on a superficial glance at their rhetoric to be at each others' throats in the Lounge are able to participate helpfully and in good humor in on-topic threads in the main body of the forum. If I insisted on applying so stringent a standard to the discussion threads that occur under the sponsorship of all sorts of other institutions I'm affiliated with - my alma mater, former employers, my clients, professional societies I've belonged to, and on and on - I'd have to live the life of a hermit.

And again, it's easy to ignore the stuff, for anyone who finds it truly offensive rather than just silly.

If there were a bandwidth issue I'd drop it in an instant, because then it would be impinging on the main purpose of the forum. But the moderators assure us there's not.

tim atherton

21-Jun-2006, 19:00

BTW - regarding the current "naughty" thread - Zarkawi - it was obviously a tongue in cheek take on a serious topic - the use of photography in government propoganda(which of course links back to our friends Walker Evans and Dorothea Lang etc among others)

Wayne Crider

21-Jun-2006, 19:39

Nah - keep the lounge. Get rid of the whiners - that's where all the bandwidth goes.. :-)

It may be that many here don't frequent Apug's lounge, so I think it nice to have an area here where all else goes that just can't seem to fit a category. I would tho restrict the conversation and not allow the personal crap, except birthdays or death's, and not anything related to politics and religion. Pissing about loosing a cable release for the upteenth time or forgetting to re-install the dark slide would be fine.

tim atherton

21-Jun-2006, 19:54

It may be that many here don't frequent Apug's lounge, so I think it nice to have an area here where all else goes that just can't seem to fit a category.

you mean all the never ending crazy zionist and neo-nazi threads and conspiracy etc.... yep - fun

Andre Noble

21-Jun-2006, 19:55

My impression when the lounge is adverised as an unmoderated, off-topic place is that it's a place for people to excercise restraint and use good judgement and not be
irresponsible or totally offensive - but by the same token, if you are offended by what you see in there, then stay out of that particular thread.

Pete Watkins

21-Jun-2006, 22:58

Leave The Lounge alone. To me it's a snapshot for us in Europe of how America is thinking. It also saves me the bother of applying for a passport, I've decided to stay at home.
PETE.

Andrey Donchev

21-Jun-2006, 22:59

Kill it! And classifieds too! There is nice classifieds section on the APUG and I find it totally adequate. Bring back the spirit of the old forum. This one starts to look like rag-fair - noisy and gaudy.

Dawid

22-Jun-2006, 03:48

Keep the Lounge !

I agree with Pete Watkins. Plus - that is what makes this site so much better than any other, as it blends photography and all its technicalities with the rest of the everyday world.

Dawid

Joseph O'Neil

22-Jun-2006, 10:19

Ah, leave the Lounge alone. It's kinda like the Golf channel on my local cable TV service. It's included in the programming package regardless if I want it or not. Who wants to watch golf on TV? I programmed my remote for my TV to skip over the channel completely. If you don't like the Lounge, cool, but skip over it completely.

Kinda like my account on APUG - I never look at the 35mm Forum, I always ignore it, even though I have 3 Nikons. :)

joe

Rick Moore

22-Jun-2006, 14:17

If you remove the Lounge, then the off-topic threads will just occur more often in the other sections. I don't understand the problem - I don't read the Lounge threads, so it doesn't matter to me what they contain.

Justus Schlichting

22-Jun-2006, 16:11

Leave The Lounge alone. To me it's a snapshot for us in Europe of how America is thinking. It also saves me the bother of applying for a passport, I've decided to stay at home.
PETE.

LOL! My sentiments exactly, Pete. Ooops ... I'm already here. Oh well ...

justus

Wayne Crider

22-Jun-2006, 19:13

you mean all the never ending crazy zionist and neo-nazi threads and conspiracy etc.... yep - fun

I've never thought of that, but then my mind usually doesn't think that way.

People on this forum are alot more civilized; I don't see a real problem.

Capocheny

23-Jun-2006, 01:14

... is that it's a place for people to excercise restraint and use good judgement and not be irresponsible or totally offensive...

Andre,

As much as I concur with you... this is asking a LOT of some people! :)

Cheers

Henry Ambrose

23-Jun-2006, 07:18

you mean all the never ending crazy zionist and neo-nazi threads and conspiracy etc.... yep - fun

A perfect example of why the Lounge should be nuked. This is the kind of mindless crap that needs to NOT be seen on the LF Forum. If the posters who write this drivel want to spread their filth, let them spread it elsewhere. We will be better off without it and there's plenty of room on the net for political discussion (or in this case slanderous name calling).

I say kill the Lounge now.

tim atherton

23-Jun-2006, 08:24

A perfect example of why the Lounge should be nuked. This is the kind of mindless crap that needs to NOT be seen on the LF Forum. If the posters who write this drivel want to spread their filth, let them spread it elsewhere. We will be better off without it and there's plenty of room on the net for political discussion (or in this case slanderous name calling).

I say kill the Lounge now.

ahh - you miss the point Henry - there's more than a little whiff of wild eyed zealotry that permeates APUG - you just don't get that here (apart from Pyro posts)

Ralph Barker

23-Jun-2006, 09:35

. . . If the posters who write this drivel want to spread their filth, let them spread it elsewhere. . . .

Within the discussion that is on-going among the moderators, we're looking at both sides of the issue. Our problem in the past has been (and the problem that the Lounge was intended to address), however, is that they don't do it elsewhere, even when the guidelines tell them to. And, it's not always the more outspoken members who start these things. On occasion, political and/or social issues have been woven into otherwise interesting and useful threads, making it difficult to delete only the offending portions - even if we had the time to do so. Thus, the entire thread had to be nuked, and those who posted to the thread, without fully reading it, get offended.

Whatever solution we arrive at, I'm sure it won't be perfect for everyone, and will likely offend some percentage of the membership.

Greg Miller

23-Jun-2006, 09:57

Can we move this thread to the lounge?!?!? ;)

Sal Santamaura

23-Jun-2006, 10:54

...Thus, the entire thread had to be nuked, and those who posted to the thread, without fully reading it, get offended.Tough. Those who post to threads without fully reading them have no right to be offended.

I repeat Ole's request and expand upon it. Kill the Lounge. Ban such discussion from "real" LF threads. If it's too much work for the volunteer moderators to prune selectively when offenses occur, delete entire threads. Ban repeat offenders completely. Make sure everyone knows that, should a thread "stray," it will disappear.

Just my opinion.

Sal Santamaura

23-Jun-2006, 10:55

Can we move this thread to the lounge?!?!? ;)Why should it be moved? It's feedback about the forum and, as such, properly classified.

Greg Miller

23-Jun-2006, 11:01

Why should it be moved? It's feedback about the forum and, as such, properly classified.

It was a joke...

Sal Santamaura

23-Jun-2006, 11:09

It was a joke...I saw your wink Greg, and understood your intention, but responded anyway to reinforce the importance of categorizing correctly.

tim atherton

23-Jun-2006, 11:31

It was a joke...

NEVER tel a joke to an A.R. personality.... !

Greg Miller

23-Jun-2006, 12:00

NEVER tel a joke to an A.R. personality.... !

Wouldn't everyone in this forum, by default, be an A.R. personality? ;)

(whoops, there I go again...)

Henry Ambrose

23-Jun-2006, 12:00

ahh - you miss the point Henry - there's more than a little whiff of wild eyed zealotry that permeates APUG - you just don't get that here (apart from Pyro posts)

ahhh...

But Tim, I don't miss the point. Be as zealous as you want here about photography. Defend to your last gasp any photographic position you might choose. Swear under your breath that you can't understand how anyone can be so obtuse as those who cannot grasp your enlightened position as the one true way. Hate Pyro or love it - HERE IS the place for it as long as you are talking ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY.

BUT LAY OFF THE POLITICS!!!

Coming here to talk politics makes no sense at all. Its not fun for everyone like it may be for the molotov cocktail hurlers. For some (more than we hear from I suspect) it creates a hostile environment. I find it especially so when most of the Lounge commentary is flaming and name calling. There's almost no rational debate involved - that would at least lend some value - but its not there.

Sal and Ole have it right.

And Ralph, I know you must be tired to death of this subject and I apologize for belaboring the point. At the same time I don't understand how its OK for some people's views to be falsely labeled as zionist and neo-nazi but its not OK to delete threads about politics on a photgraphy forum. I don't get it!!

tim atherton

23-Jun-2006, 12:34

At the same time I don't understand how its OK for some people's views to be falsely labeled as zionist and neo-nazi but its not OK to delete threads about politics on a photgraphy forum. I don't get it!!

I'm not quite sure where the falsely label part comes in? The reference was to the "lounge" on APUG - with at times endless posts/threads claiming that Palestinians are a non-people and the world would be better off if thy were all executed, and posts by others believe the world is controlled by a jewish/socialist conspiracy etc etc. None of which, by contrast, I've ever noticed on here, or anything approaching the vitriol and hate I've seen on APUG - which was the point about this forum being different.

HERE IS the place for it as long as you are talking ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY.

BUT LAY OFF THE POLITICS!!!

Coming here to talk politics makes no sense at all.

But as much as you might wish it were so, you can't separate photography from politics a lot of the time. Much (of our and others) photography does and always has concerned political issues - war, social conditions, the environment, propaganda etc etc. They are in many cases inseparably combined.

Some might like a nice comfortable "politics" free hobby spot to indulge in discussion of lens coverage or photogrpahing Calla Lilies. But for others, their passion for photography includes a passion for things much broader than that - of which photography is an inseparable part.

Frank Petronio

23-Jun-2006, 12:35

Well as far as I can tell it is only one very popular thread -- out of several dozen otherwise friendly and helpful threads in the Lounge -- that has any hint of rancour currently going on. And this bottle thrower did somewhat diffuse it with a few jokes and actually found some shared common ground with the "other side."

So if that is hostile then you might want to avoid this whole interweb thing cause it is a lot worse EVERYWHERE else. And that is the point... discussions about politics and such are nice here because the participants are more diverse, and usually more intelligent and articulate than they are on politically specific forums. I mean there really are not any better alternatives where you get Europeans, Americans, and others on the Right and Left in the same space. Such a diverse audience isn't hanging out on the typical right wing or left wing haunts.

All kidding aside, this is a wonderful thing and one of the best, most positive things to come from the internet.

Killing it off -- the most popular thread -- would hardly be good website management. If it indeed did happen, I'd have to wonder which multinational or government agency the webmaster was working for?

Geez, I think I'll start posting nudes or something and let's see what happens. That would be more fun.

tim atherton

23-Jun-2006, 12:36

I find it especially so when most of the Lounge commentary is flaming and name calling. There's almost no rational debate involved - that would at least lend some value - but its not there.

One simple point - I truly don't understand why you bother to read it...?

Henry Ambrose

23-Jun-2006, 12:45

Geez, I think I'll start posting nudes or something and let's see what happens. That would be more fun.

Good idea! That would fit in the category of "photography".

Henry Ambrose

23-Jun-2006, 12:57

One simple point - I truly don't understand why you bother to read it...?

Its splashed across the "Unified View", mooning the world.

I'm done now, no more.

Frank Petronio

23-Jun-2006, 12:58

Wait, wait, we haven't had a chance to insult you and add random rancour!

Have a nice day Henry.

Ole Tjugen

23-Jun-2006, 13:00

I started this thread partly as a reaction to a particularly insiduous thread on APUG, where I'm a moderator. As I said, this forum has always been relatively "clean". Maybe it was the old text-only format which kept it that way?

I know very well how difficult it can be to find the balance between "too much" and "too little" when moderating an internet forum, and am slowly beginning to admit that the moderator will be blamed anyway. Some people will be upset when their seemingly innocuous posts are edited, and some will be upset that the editing didn't go far enough.

So I suggested getting rid of "The Lounge" as I feel it brings no new knowledge to the world of LF, except perhaps to identify the more "inflammable" members of this community. But I already know who they are from APUG, and I really didn't relish the thought of getting all the flame wars in replay...

Since I have a job too, and at least try to have a life, I can't do as my stepson and take the PC with me everywhere:
http://www.bruraholo.no/bilder/Truls.jpg

Time to start discussing nudes instead? :D

Greg Miller

23-Jun-2006, 13:04

Let the fun begin

Scott Knowles

23-Jun-2006, 13:26

I guess in the end, the real question is, what do the owners and moderators think and decide about the Lounge? After all they installed the new format, and it must have been a part of the catagories in the choices. Do they plan to continue it or what? After all the, all our words are just that, words. They have to manage the whole thing.

Frank Petronio

23-Jun-2006, 14:19

this is more fun

Patrik Roseen

23-Jun-2006, 16:11

I too feel bad about some threads and postings on this forum but have also noticed that some of them are made by the very same people I have learned lots of LF-stuff from. I have also learned from other sites that some of the really interesting photographers have a very 'personalized personality' and get's into all kinds of discussions not only by own cause but due to emotions that their work stir up around them.
I guess some people who have been on this forum from the start...have seen more or less the same questions come up again and again and again...the Lounge might be the way to actually have them stay around until something really tricky comes up and then they will contribute.

I certainly do not intend to encourage 'bad behaviour'! We need to remember that we are all humans and that we do have feelings and various degree of self-esteem and security about who we are and what we would like to be. For some the tone in certain threads are very discouraging and could scare people away from this forum...others seem to like the rough and killing like atmosphere.

People with 1000-2000 posts need to consider what kind of responsibility they have for this forum...newcomers will be impressed by the number of posts and automatically think that that person is the forum.

As far as personal behaviour is concerned I would quote a swedish author 'Hjalmar Soderberg':
"One wants to be loved; failing this, to be admired; failing this, to be feared; failing even this, to be hated and despised. One wants to arouse some sort of feeling in people. The soul shrinks from the void and wants contact at any price."

Let's not push people further into hate and despise...

Kind regards, Patrik.

Sal Santamaura

23-Jun-2006, 18:41

...People with 1000-2000 posts need to consider what kind of responsibility they have for this forum...newcomers will be impressed by the number of posts and automatically think that that person is the forum...Precisely -- because they are this forum. Thank you Patrik, for distilling it so well.

tim atherton

23-Jun-2006, 18:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrik Roseen
...People with 1000-2000 posts need to consider what kind of responsibility they have for this forum...newcomers will be impressed by the number of posts and automatically think that that person is the forum...

Precisely -- because they are this forum. Thank you Patrik, for distilling it so well.

oh dear - what a load of old codswallop

Frank Petronio

23-Jun-2006, 19:08

CODSWALLOP
Nonsense.

This mainly British colloquial expression is recorded only from the 1960s, but is certainly older. Its origin is uncertain. Some argue it may be from cods, an old term for the testicles that derives from the Anglo-Saxon sense of cod, a bag. It is also suggested that wallop may be connected with the dialect term meaning to chatter or scold (not with the word meaning a heavy blow).
One explanation has it that it refers to the late Hiram Codd, who—despite his archetypally American first name—was British, born in Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk in 1838. He spent his life working in the soft drinks business. In the 1870s, he designed and patented a method of sealing a glass bottle by means of a ball in its neck, which the pressure of the gas in the fizzy drink forced against a rubber washer. Making the bottle was a technical challenge, since the ball necessarily had to be larger than the diameter of the neck. It was only in 1876, when he teamed up with a Yorkshire glass blower named Ben Rylands, that the answer was found. The Codd bottle was an immediate success; surviving examples are now highly collectable. You opened them by pushing the ball into the neck, and openers in the shape of short, thin cylinders were supplied for the purpose. One unexpected problem was that children smashed the bottles to use the glass balls as marbles.
The suggestion is that drinkers who preferred their tipple to have alcohol in it were dismissive of Mr Codd’s soft drinks. As beer was often called wallop, they referred sneeringly to the fizzy drink as Codd’s wallop, and the resulting word later spread its meaning to refer to anything considered to be rubbish.
This story reeks of the approach to word history called folk etymology. As one writer has put it, it seems rather too neat an explanation to be true. But nobody’s come up with anything better.

jnantz

23-Jun-2006, 19:23

what is so hard about just ignoring a thread you don't want to read?

john

bruce terry

23-Jun-2006, 20:21

From my lowly newcomer standpoint, the Lounge seems just fine - just a bunch of grown-ups occasionally sounding off about our upsidedown and backwards world while exploring the upsidedown and backwards image in their ground gless. If anybody can handle upsidedown and backwards, seems we can.

PS - Want to see what we would be without a place like the Lounge? Check out the Leica Forum: Pretty dull and anal. Do these people have real emotion? Certainly, but they've no place on the site to show their human (sometimes bitchy) side. Yes, I know it's corporate sponsored and needs limits, but lord, does LFPF want to be that stiff?

Scott Fleming

23-Jun-2006, 22:44

I think it's pretty fishy that some want to kill the lounge. I don't see myself posting a highly political thread but when someone does in which my country is slandered I ain't gonna sit on the sidelines.

Could it be things got so hot in the Zarkawi thread because the few of us here who are patriotic nationalists (to varrying degrees it is important to add) had the temerity to actually put forward our rightest ideas. I think that REALLY ticked off a a few folks so much that they want to stop this disgusting free speach.

Frank Petronio

24-Jun-2006, 04:52

Well, Scott is right. Killing the lounge would stink of Political Correctness. And be downright wimpy.

And anti-American.

tim atherton

24-Jun-2006, 07:39

cblurton

24-Jun-2006, 08:53

I am all for censorship as long as I get to do the censoring. But short of that solution, as I read the comments here, it seems to me that there are ways in which the lounge messages can be hidden from the unified view if a user requests this service from the moderators. Since the lounge was apparently set up to provide a soap box for people to stand on when not discussing more directly related topics and that seems to keep other strands more focused, and since there doesn't seem to be a bandwidth issue, and since no one has to read any of the posts in the lounge unless he or she wants to, this seems like an obvious solution. It can probably be automated, too, as one post suggested, so that moderators don't need to be involved directly.

Best wishes,

Craig

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson

cblurton

25-Jun-2006, 06:55

I just found the following feature in the "User Control Panel" feature ("User CP" from the menu at the top) of this forum software. It appears to allow participants to opt out of receiving posts from the Lounge.

Craig

Forums To Exclude From View

Here you can select any number of forums to exclude from the forums list, from "get new" search and from "get daily" search.

To select multiple forums, press and hold CTRL key while clicking on the forum titles. To clear exclusion, select "Reset Exclusion" without holding CTRL key.

(List of forums followed here)

Brian Vuillemenot

25-Jun-2006, 13:03

I say keep the lounge. As annoying and offensive as some of the threads are, where else can threads that start off about photography but decline to political arguments be banished? ;)

Turner Reich

8-Jul-2006, 18:10

I see the apug come up sometimes, what is it? When I typed in apug.com I got an Australian Pilots site.

tr

Ralph Barker

8-Jul-2006, 18:18

I see the apug come up sometimes, what is it? When I typed in apug.com I got an Australian Pilots site.

tr

APUG is the Analog Photographers Users Group, but it's www.apug.org, not .com. It's strongly oriented to traditional photography only, and there's a fair overlap of members with this forum with respect to LF toipics.

Bob Gentile

8-Jul-2006, 18:23

I see the apug come up sometimes, what is it? When I typed in apug.com I got an Australian Pilots site.
"Analog Photography Users Group." Try www.apug.org (http://www.apug.org).

Capocheny

8-Jul-2006, 18:25

I see the apug come up sometimes, what is it? When I typed in apug.com I got an Australian Pilots site.

tr

Turner,

Try:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Cheers

Paul Coppin

23-Jul-2006, 04:47

What one of the boards (also a Vbulletin format) that I frequent did was make their off-topic forum subscriber-only. You had to apply for entrance, and you could be banned if appropriate, while not necessarily be banned from the whole site. This allowed some measure of control over those who were fine contributors when on their meds, but certifiably whacko when not. In particular, it kept the raucous discussions not in line with the overall board theme from the public eye. Unless you joined the specific forum, you would have no idea that the respected professional you admired was a card- carrying [insert politically incorrect appelation here] whackjob in his spare time. The board initially tried doing away with the off topic forum for a time, and exactly what was feared, did happen - the vitriol became disseminated throughout the site, and became a nightmare for the mods. There weren't enough webbed feet available to stomp out the distributed political incorrectness.

Pete Watkins

23-Jul-2006, 06:41

Howcome most of the wingers come from Scandanavia, we're all happy in the U.K. Get back to the moonshine and leave The Lounge alone.
Pete

Ralph Barker

23-Jul-2006, 07:40

What one of the boards (also a Vbulletin format) that I frequent did was make their off-topic forum subscriber-only. . . .
We don't have "subscribers" in addition to "members", but that's similar to what we've done, Paul. The contents of The Lounge cannot be seen now by un-registered users, so that eliminates its content showing up in search engines. Plus, Tom posted methods for individual forums to be excluded from the view link used by those who don't want to see it.

tim atherton

23-Jul-2006, 08:04

Sal Santamaura

11-Nov-2006, 20:03

I gave in to temptation when posting early in the "Don't forget to Vote!" thread, when it was still somewhat on topic. Apparently even that was an error; one should not feed the trolls.

The absurdity evident in that and similar threads this week leads to a repeat plea -- kill the lounge!

BrianShaw

11-Nov-2006, 20:54

Gee whiz, Sal... lighten up! :)

Bill_1856

12-Nov-2006, 05:57

I'm glad the Lounge is there, but it needs an automatic 7-day deletion.

Sal Santamaura

12-Nov-2006, 10:16

...it needs an automatic 7-day deletion.A reasonable alternative; I'd endorse that. Moderators?

Marko

12-Nov-2006, 10:27

I'm glad the Lounge is there, but it needs an automatic 7-day deletion.

But why?

If it bothers you don't read.

Should I remind you that despite all the flame wars that can erupt, it is still way more civil than some purely photographic threads that routinely get locked and/or deleted?

;)

robc

12-Nov-2006, 10:33

I'm glad the Lounge is there, but it needs an automatic 7-day deletion.

dumb suggestion. If people know they can write anything inflamatory which will be auto deleted in 7 days then they will do it. If you don't want the evidence of what you have written to be avaiable for eternity then don't write it. Simple hey? (unless you have a compulsive problem in which case you're in trouble ;) )

Sal Santamaura

12-Nov-2006, 10:41

dumb suggestion. If people know they can write anything inflamatory which will be auto deleted in 7 days then they will do it.They're already making inflamatory posts; permanency has not proved a deterrent.

If you don't want the evidence of what you have written to be avaiable for eternity then don't write it.But those making such posts are more than happy for them to be permanent. Since this forum is for the discussion of large format photography, why should it provide a permanent, searchable archive of unrelated lounge jabber?

David A. Goldfarb

12-Nov-2006, 11:31

I think it does make sense not to archive Lounge threads. They clog up the local search engine, can bring in unwanted traffic from Google and other external search engines, and if they are incendiary they can pop up and cause moderation problems long after the initial discussion has died down.

This wouldn't necessarily require something as drastic as a 7-day expiry date. You could, say, cause threads to disappear after they've been inactive for some reasonable period of time, or you could periodically purge inactive threads from the Lounge manually.

Frank Petronio

12-Nov-2006, 11:37

Probably because nothing similar exists. People tend to graviate towards forums with other people of similar interests -- in this case photography. However, it is enlightening to me to sometimes hear from other photographers who have very different opinions than myself about non-photographic matters. By having the relationship or bond of sharing photography, we can actually find a reason to discuss -- or maybe banter and argue -- the issues of the day.

There isn't another forum where people can do this that isn't run by some sort of idealouge -- I mean what kind of discussion would you expect at rushlimbaugh.com or alfranken.com? It would all be one-sided. I like the fact that I can actually discuss things with people with an opposing view -- even if they are wrong.

People here (and on APUG especially, probably cuz it is censored they have pent-up anger) are practically issuing death threats over using Pyro Developer. I think a few rancourous political dannybrooks are probably much healthier. I doubt anyone is getting their feelings hurt and if they are, then they should wise up and avoid the Lounge.

BrianShaw

12-Nov-2006, 11:53

If it bothers you don't read.

This is my solution, too! I'm not about to have a heart attack over somebodies political/religious/ethical/photographic/etc opinion, nor am I willing to have a case of heartburn over the fact that these opinions exist. I'd rather have a heart attack or hearburn over something that really matters... if I'm have to have either.

robc

12-Nov-2006, 12:17

They're already making inflamatory posts; permanency has not proved a deterrent.

But those making such posts are more than happy for them to be permanent. Since this forum is for the discussion of large format photography, why should it provide a permanent, searchable archive of unrelated lounge jabber?

But that is what the Lounge is for. Off topic unmoderated discussion on anything. "Off Topic" being the operative phrase. If you don't like it then just go to your options panel and exclude the Lounge which is what I do. That way you never see anything in the lounge unless you specifically log into the lounge to see whats there. Thats what I do from time to time and it saves me from having to resist temptation too often. I only went there today because of this thread, so as to see what was causing the problem and here we are arguing the toss over whether the lounge should exist or be moderated. Had you kept quiet and not jump started this thread again, this would not have happened.

and its only searcheable and archived to those who are registered and have not opted to have it ommitted which can you do if only you would make the effort.

Sal Santamaura

12-Nov-2006, 15:04

But that is what the Lounge is for. Off topic unmoderated discussion on anything...The Lounge exists for one purpose only -- to give the moderators a break from having to deal with this stuff in "regular" threads.

If you don't like it then just go to your options panel and exclude the Lounge which is what I do. That way you never see anything in the lounge unless you specifically log into the lounge to see whats there.I've no interest in hiding anything about this forum. My browser's home page is a search for new postings here in the last 30 days; it essentially duplicates content of the old version's "new answers" page. I want to know what the people I'm "conversing" with are posting, not be ignorant about what they're doing in another area here.

...archived to those who are registered and have not opted to have it ommitted which can you do if only you would make the effort.As noted above, this has nothing to do with effort. It's a conscious choice.

...There isn't another forum where people can do this that isn't run by some sort of idealouge -- I mean what kind of discussion would you expect at rushlimbaugh.com or alfranken.com? It would all be one-sided. I like the fact that I can actually discuss things with people with an opposing view -- even if they are wrong...Frank, rather than use largeformatphotography.info for that purpose, why don't you set up an open-minded political forum at frankpetronio.com? Wouldn't it be better if someone who really wished to host such discussions donated a server and bandwidth to that topic rather than force the threads on a benefactor whose apparent desire is fostering dialog about large format photography?

robc

12-Nov-2006, 15:25

The Lounge exists for one purpose only -- to give the moderators a break from having to deal with this stuff in "regular" threads.

I've no interest in hiding anything about this forum. My browser's home page is a search for new postings here in the last 30 days; it essentially duplicates content of the old version's "new answers" page. I want to know what the people I'm "conversing" with are posting, not be ignorant about what they're doing in another area here.
As noted above, this has nothing to do with effort. It's a conscious choice.

You are not making any sense at all. Infact you are contradicting yourself. You say you want the lounge killed but then you say that if its there you want to see everything in it. You can kill it for yourself so that you never see it. Or is it that you want to kill it for others because that suits you.

Once again, go to your options page and select the option to hide the Lounge forum. That will have no effect on any of your other settings or searches except that lounge entries will not appear in them. You will just never see anything from the lounge which is what you want.
If thats not good enough then I can only conclude that you want to censor other people. And I thought free speech was alive and kicking in the US.

Frank Petronio

12-Nov-2006, 15:35

One photo post probably uses more bandwidth than everything that's been in the lounge so far. Plus, if you look at the numbers, people are voting with page views 4-5X the average of the usual technical photo threads.

Rider

12-Nov-2006, 15:56

If you kill the Lounge, where would this (and and other silly) threads go?

Long live the Lounge.

Bill_1856

12-Nov-2006, 17:40

Thanks ROBC. I disabled it (had no idea that I could do that -- feel incredibly empowered!).

Sal Santamaura

12-Nov-2006, 17:47

You are not making any sense at all...If thats not good enough then I can only conclude that you want to censor other people. And I thought free speech was alive and kicking in the US.I'll leave deciding whether I'm making sense to the moderators, founder and owner of largeformatphotography.info. Postings in this category are to provide them input about the forum. Whether or not free speech is alive and kicking in the US is a subject for discussion in The Lounge, not "Feedback." Note, however, that even in the US there's no such thing as free speech in a private venue such as this. What can and can't be discussed is completely at the discression of those who control it.

One photo post probably uses more bandwidth than everything that's been in the lounge so far. Plus, if you look at the numbers, people are voting with page views 4-5X the average of the usual technical photo threads.The exact amount of bandwidth is irrelevant. Our host is donating resources, including storage and a searchable archive for anyone who registers, so that discussion as well as viewing of images made with large format cameras can take place. Since this is neither photo.net nor any other commercial site, substantial page views of threads unrelated to large format photography should be seen as a negative, not a positive. They detract from the forum's essential purpose. I'll ask again Frank: if The Lounge is such a good thing, why not host your political discussion group at frankpetronio.com?

If you kill the Lounge, where would this (and and other silly) threads go?...Right where it belongs and where it is. You're not in The Lounge. You're in the Feedback forum category. Of course, this thread would never have been started if The Lounge didn't exist.

Frank Petronio

12-Nov-2006, 19:19

I actually had a forum at one time, and the people on it weren't as well behaved as the worst a-holes here. This forum attracts only the highest caliber, refined a-holes.

But I would gladly donate towards the upkeep of this forum and have offered to do so several times in public. If the Lounge was a hardship, I am sure we would hear about it. As it is, the sites' operators put it there, and maybe they even get a chuckle from it once in a while.

robc

12-Nov-2006, 19:59

Thanks ROBC. I disabled it (had no idea that I could do that -- feel incredibly empowered!).

If you do get the urge to have a peek at what has been happening in the lounge once in a while, then log out and follow the link to display the list of forums. Click the Lounge forum link and you will see nothing in the forum because you are not logged in. When you are at that screen you can log in and you will see the contents of the lounge forum. i.e. you don't need to go back and change your option settings to do it.

Marko

12-Nov-2006, 22:30

Whether or not free speech is alive and kicking in the US is a subject for discussion in The Lounge, not "Feedback."

And how exactly are we going to discuss that subject in the Lounge if we kill it?

Note, however, that even in the US there's no such thing as free speech in a private venue such as this. What can and can't be discussed is completely at the discression of those who control it.

Precisely. So, why are we having this discussion? :)

Michael Alpert

13-Nov-2006, 08:40

I certainly understand the reason for this thread. And the thread has led to a number of options. I've just excluded The Lounge from what appears in the Unified View. For me, this is the solution to the problem. Others can hate the fact that chatter continues; I really do not mind. People belong to forums for all sorts of reasons. For a few people, this forum is a daily source of personal (or, rather, quasi-personal) communication. Some may even be Internet-addicted, That's okay (albeit not ideal), but I do not want to be rubbing against their needs. As long as the photographic core of this forum can be maintained distinctly and without interference, The Lounge out there in Cyberspace can grind away in whatever way its contibutors desire.

Sal Santamaura

13-Nov-2006, 08:41

...If the Lounge was a hardship, I am sure we would hear about it. As it is, the sites' operators put it there, and maybe they even get a chuckle from it once in a while.I doubt there's much laughing going on. Brian Reed's generosity and volunteer moderators keep the site going. Scrolling up to Ralph Barker's June 23 posting will reveal that the Lounge is intended as a mechanism to prevent infiltration of political/social commentary into photography threads. I'll accept that as a useful function, give up on killing it entirely and embrace Bill Mitchell's idea to life-limit Lounge threads. But offering such off-topic banter as a part of the permanent archive just doesn't make sense to me. Let the operators decide.

Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura:
'Whether or not free speech is alive and kicking in the US is a subject for discussion in The Lounge, not "Feedback." '

And how exactly are we going to discuss that subject in the Lounge if we kill it?Since it has nothing to do with large format photography, if the lounge is killed, we wouldn't discuss it. Which would be, in my opinion, appropriate. There are political forums where it would be appropriate.

Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura
Note, however, that even in the US there's no such thing as free speech in a private venue such as this. What can and can't be discussed is completely at the discression of those who control it.

Precisely. So, why are we having this discussion? :) Because those who control it have provided this category to solicit input on what the forum should be.

tim atherton

13-Nov-2006, 09:09

I doubt there's much laughing going on. Brian Reed's generosity and volunteer moderators keep the site going. Scrolling up to Ralph Barker's June 23 posting will reveal that the Lounge is intended as a mechanism to prevent infiltration of political/social commentary into photography threads. I'll accept that as a useful function, give up on killing it entirely and embrace Bill Mitchell's idea to life-limit Lounge threads. But offering such off-topic banter as a part of the permanent archive just doesn't make sense to me. Let the operators decide.

.

and of course Brian runs a completley off-topic sub forum of the LUG (the LUG-Forum)on the same server set-up for the same reasons there is the lounge on here (heck, he even participates in it). BTW if you think the discussion here is off the wall, it doesn't even come close to the LUG-Forum...!)

tim atherton

13-Nov-2006, 09:11

BTW, if you don't like the Lounge, cut it off your list and don't read it - simple. Now, how hard is that?

(Countinuing to read the Lounge posts when you dislike them and dislike the Lounge itself must be rather unhealthy?)

Jim Jones

13-Nov-2006, 09:15

The Lounge is like the sleazy corner pub in a residential district. The residents can walk by without entering. Unlike the pub, from the outside the Lounge is inoffensive to anyone not wanting to stir the chamber pot.

Sal Santamaura

13-Nov-2006, 09:23

BTW, if you don't like the Lounge, cut it off your list and don't read it - simple. Now, how hard is that?...Tim, if you scroll up just a dozen posts from your most recent one you'll see I already addressed that issue. Aspersions of lazyness accomplish nothing.

tim atherton

13-Nov-2006, 09:30

Tim, if you scroll up just a dozen posts from your most recent one you'll see I already addressed that issue. Aspersions of lazyness accomplish nothing.

no you don't. You explain that you set yourself up and put yourself in a situtation where you continue to have the opportunity to whine about something you dislike. There's a simple way for you to deal with it, but you chose not to follow it. Simply put, that's your problem and no one elses.

Marko

13-Nov-2006, 09:56

But offering such off-topic banter as a part of the permanent archive just doesn't make sense to me. Let the operators decide.

(...)

Since it has nothing to do with large format photography, if the lounge is killed, we wouldn't discuss it. Which would be, in my opinion, appropriate.

Well, yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, aren't we? Everybody has an opinion, and that makes yours just one of many. ;)

Sal Santamaura

13-Nov-2006, 10:09

...and put yourself in a situtation where you continue to have the opportunity to whine about something you dislike...Whining is something to do in the Lounge. This thread isn't about whining. It's feedback to the forum operators.

Frank Petronio

13-Nov-2006, 10:38

We could talk about something important and actually solve an actual problem. It is highly unlikely but it would really fluster Sal...

Chris Pandino

14-Nov-2006, 11:50