Filtration setup for Super Angulon 47mm XL lens

[rollypolly]

I've been a digital shooter for some time, and I've really enjoyed ultrawide lenses. On digital and 35mm film, I mainly use an 11-24mm (126 degrees) with rear filters or 16-35mm (108 degrees) with front filters. I mainly use 6-10 stop ND, IR, and color filters (for b&w film).

I recently got into large format, hence opening an account here. I got the Schneider Super Angulon 47 XL (120 degrees) and the paired IIIc center filter to do some ultrawide shooting. The lens shoots just fine with the center filter.

However, the center filter steps the filter size up to 86mm, and I only have circular filters for 95mm. Using a 86-95 step up ring and a 95mm filter, I noticed four corner mechanical vignetting on the shots at zero movements, indicating that my filter protrudes too much into the field of view.

What would be the best way to eliminate the vignetting? Would dropping the step up ring and getting a set of 86mm filters work? Should I put a 67mm filter between the lens and the center filter? Or should I just go with square filters? If so, should I get the 100mm square, 150mm square, or the 186mm square systems?

[xkaes]

Do you notice the dark corners when stopped down?

I have a 67-77mm step-up ring on mine, and use that as my base for my filtration. That's only because 77mm is my standard. You might try that -- 67mm up to whatever you want -- but getting two filters on any setup will be about the max unless you want to go HUGE.

There's no law against putting the CND filter on last.

Let us know what you figure out.

[phdgent]

If possible, put a filter on the back of the lens, inside the bellows, but I do realise that this isn't possible for a polarising filter as you have to be able to reach it for orienting it.

I used to have a LEE filter holder for 100mmx100mm foil filters and inserted a polarising foil filter in it, foil filters are larger (and thinner) than round glass filters in metal rings.
LEE has a special set up for the (in-)famous Nikkor 14-24mm wide angle lens, perhaps this one could be of some use for you?

I have the S-A 47mm v2 (with the 52 mm diameter filter mount) and the paired Center-Filter which has a 67mm size front mount. On the Center-Filter I fit a step-up ring 67mm—>82mm and use 82mm filters, precisely to avoid vignetting, which in extremis still does on the 6x9 format, but this might de due to my enthusiasm in shifting to far too...

I realise that the S-A 47 XL doesn't allow much shift on the 4"x5" format without vignetting, even with 'large' filters, but still, a foil filter set-up is always useful as with the right adapter it can fit other leses, and that holder can hold a compendium too.

BTW, that S-A 47 XL is fabulous for the 6x12cm panoramic format allowing considerable shift (with less-to-non vignetting), if you can find a Horseman 6x12 roll film holder...

[xkaes]

If possible, put a filter on the back of the lens, inside the bellows, but I do realise that this isn't possible for a polarising filter as you have to be able to reach it for orienting it..

Putting filters on the rear of the 47mm might be an option, although the XL doesn't give a filter holder much to hang on to.

The only lens that I use with rear filters is a Mamiya 37mm f4.5 fisheye -- for obvious reasons. It has filter threads on the rear, which the XL lacks.

I haven't had any trouble using a linear polarizer on the rear of my fisheye. I just visually note where the index mark needs to be, and then place it on the rear of the lens similarly. That's not a big deal with this lens anyway, because I have to remove the lens from the camera to cock the shutter!

[Martin Aislabie]

I use a 67mm filter against the front of the lens and then the centre filter.

With the 47 XL you always have to watch the corners - so stop down fully and very carefully check the corners before shooting.

If I want to use a ND Grad, I use a Lee 100mm Grad held in place a flexible arm - like this - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermosiey-Background-Holder-Accessories-Reflector-Black/dp/B0DLKK1GJ3/ref=asc_df_B0DLKK1GJ3?mcid=0b9ba647c8543fab8270c8ed075888f7&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=717981925895&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11942965485300275738&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007128&hvtargid=pla-2376865194610&psc=1&gad_source=1

Not perfect but good enough.

Adjust the position of the ND Grad with the lens stopped down to your working aperture.

Martin

[dave_whatever]

It's possible to buy or have made a version of a Lee 100mm filter holder that will push onto the front of a IIIc centre filter. I have one which I've used on the equivalent cf for a 90mm lens on 6x17.

Another option, the cheapest, is to use 100mm square filters (like Lee etc) and just blu-tack* them onto the rim of the centre filter. Not a flashy solution but costs next to nothing, and it works. No chance of vignetting.

*Blu-Tack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_Tack) is a UK trade name, any British reader will know exactly what I mean, and I assume this stuff exists in other countries under different names.

[rollypolly]

Do you notice the dark corners when stopped down?

I have a 67-77mm step-up ring on mine, and use that as my base for my filtration. That's only because 77mm is my standard. You might try that -- 67mm up to whatever you want -- but getting two filters on any setup will be about the max unless you want to go HUGE.

There's no law against putting the CND filter on last.

Let us know what you figure out.

I do. Most of my testing was at f/22, where I got four dark corners.

I could use a 67-82 filter ring, as I have practically all filters at 82mm for my 35mm and GX680 lenses, but then I would have to find a matching 82mm center ND for the lens.

Given how much I paid for the 67mm center ND, I think I could probably re-buy most of my standard filters at 67mm below the price of a matching 82mm center ND!

[rollypolly]

If possible, put a filter on the back of the lens, inside the bellows, but I do realise that this isn't possible for a polarising filter as you have to be able to reach it for orienting it.

I used to have a LEE filter holder for 100mmx100mm foil filters and inserted a polarising foil filter in it, foil filters are larger (and thinner) than round glass filters in metal rings.
LEE has a special set up for the (in-)famous Nikkor 14-24mm wide angle lens, perhaps this one could be of some use for you?

I have the S-A 47mm v2 (with the 52 mm diameter filter mount) and the paired Center-Filter which has a 67mm size front mount. On the Center-Filter I fit a step-up ring 67mm—>82mm and use 82mm filters, precisely to avoid vignetting, which in extremis still does on the 6x9 format, but this might de due to my enthusiasm in shifting to far too...

I realise that the S-A 47 XL doesn't allow much shift on the 4"x5" format without vignetting, even with 'large' filters, but still, a foil filter set-up is always useful as with the right adapter it can fit other leses, and that holder can hold a compendium too.

BTW, that S-A 47 XL is fabulous for the 6x12cm panoramic format allowing considerable shift (with less-to-non vignetting), if you can find a Horseman 6x12 roll film holder...


Yeah, the 47XL has no threads on the rear element.

I could pick up a square filter setup, but the choice there is between the 100, 150, and larger filters for wide angle lenses. The cost and portability annoyances increase quite dramatically with the filter sizes.

The 47XL has a center filter with an 86mm front mount, which vignettes on a 95mm filter. It was the first thing I tried and it didn't work. I have only a single 112mm filter, but I'd buy square filters wayyy before I'd try to pick up round 112mm filters.

[rollypolly]

Putting filters on the rear of the 47mm might be an option, although the XL doesn't give a filter holder much to hang on to.

The only lens that I use with rear filters is a Mamiya 37mm f4.5 fisheye -- for obvious reasons. It has filter threads on the rear, which the XL lacks.

I haven't had any trouble using a linear polarizer on the rear of my fisheye. I just visually note where the index mark needs to be, and then place it on the rear of the lens similarly. That's not a big deal with this lens anyway, because I have to remove the lens from the camera to cock the shutter!


Yeah, I use rear filters with my Canon digital kit. The adapter for the EF mount allows me to slot in a rear filter. This works very well with the 8-15 fisheye and 11-24 lenses that are too bulbous to take front filters. The EF-RF adapter exposes a small knob that allows me to rotate the filter in the rear slot from the outside. It allows for the adjustment of the polarizer angle and variable ND strength, which I find kinda nifty.

If only the 47XL had back threads! Then I might be able to run a shaft through the lensboard.

[rollypolly]

I use a 67mm filter against the front of the lens and then the centre filter.

With the 47 XL you always have to watch the corners - so stop down fully and very carefully check the corners before shooting.

If I want to use a ND Grad, I use a Lee 100mm Grad held in place a flexible arm - like this - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hermosiey-Background-Holder-Accessories-Reflector-Black/dp/B0DLKK1GJ3/ref=asc_df_B0DLKK1GJ3?mcid=0b9ba647c8543fab8270c8ed075888f7&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=717981925895&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11942965485300275738&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007128&hvtargid=pla-2376865194610&psc=1&gad_source=1

Not perfect but good enough.

Adjust the position of the ND Grad with the lens stopped down to your working aperture.

Martin



Got it. 67 before the center filter makes the most sense to me.

I haven't gotten into ND grads yet. I started with digital, so I've usually had enough dynamic range that I could do a grad in post. So far, I've not run into too many limitations doing the same with color negative film, but I'd probably need to look into grad NDs more if I start doing slides.

[rollypolly]

It's possible to buy or have made a version of a Lee 100mm filter holder that will push onto the front of a IIIc centre filter. I have one which I've used on the equivalent cf for a 90mm lens on 6x17.

Another option, the cheapest, is to use 100mm square filters (like Lee etc) and just blu-tack* them onto the rim of the centre filter. Not a flashy solution but costs next to nothing, and it works. No chance of vignetting.

*Blu-Tack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_Tack) is a UK trade name, any British reader will know exactly what I mean, and I assume this stuff exists in other countries under different names.

Lee makes a 86mm adapter for their 100mm system. Is there a reason that that wouldn't work here?

[dave_whatever]

Lee makes a 86mm adapter for their 100mm system. Is there a reason that that wouldn't work here?

Mechanically it would work, but on a lens that wide there's probably a fair risk of vignetting as a result of the adapter ring.

[xkaes]

Yeah, the 47XL has no threads on the rear element.

I could pick up a square filter setup, but the choice there is between the 100, 150, and larger filters for wide angle lenses. The cost and portability annoyances increase quite dramatically with the filter sizes.

The 47XL has a center filter with an 86mm front mount, which vignettes on a 95mm filter. It was the first thing I tried and it didn't work. I have only a single 112mm filter, but I'd buy square filters wayyy before I'd try to pick up round 112mm filters.


I was lucky enough (took a long time) to find a Heliopan 0.9 CND 82mm filter. The front threads are 105mm -- which I don't use, but makes a nice lens shade. My standard filter size is 77mm, so a simple step-up ring works -- and I can use a 77mm filter on the lens first, if needed. The Heliopan 0.9 CND is perfect, and it was made in other sizes as well. They are harder to find, but since there is less demand for them, the prices are often relatively inexpensive.

As you can see from this graph, the corners on the 47mm are about 3 f-stops away from the center.

259598

[Joshua Dunn]

Xkaes,

Where is that chart from? I'm not sure it applies to all lenses. The center filter for the 47mm XL has a filter factor of 4x or 2 stops.

-Joshua

[RJ-]

Xkaes,

Where is that chart from? I'm not sure it applies to all lenses. The center filter for the 47mm XL has a filter factor of 4x or 2 stops.

-Joshua


That's correct Joshua.

The Schneider IIIc front filtration of the Super Angulon 47mm XL f5.6 at f22 doesn't permit comfortable repeatable front filtration below a 105mm step up ring on the front of the IIIc centre ND filter. The 2 stop fall off isn't so important in negative film compared to colour transparency/diapositives.



What would be the best way to eliminate the vignetting? Would dropping the step up ring and getting a set of 86mm filters work? Should I put a 67mm filter between the lens and the center filter? Or should I just go with square filters? If so, should I get the 100mm square, 150mm square, or the 186mm square systems?

I find it's more elegant shooting 4 x 4 inch on 5 x 4 inch sheet film with a less clunky set up of a 95mm filter. 105mm round filters do work from a 86mm single step up adaptor. Your 100mm square option will reveal the filter holder within the imaging axis.

The dedicated Sinar filtration system holder also shows up in the perimeter of the image of the SA 47/5.6. The Cokin X-Pro less so: these 230mm long filters are ideal for this kind of set up however the strain on the front filter ring is not insignificant as well as fragile. Either the 150mm or 186mm square/rectangular systems work - however your filter mount may require an inset adaptation with PTFE tape to grip more proximally than the external filter thread of your lens and IIIc combination if the gap extension between the square filter and front of the IIIc is long (e.g. the third slot of the Cokin X-Pro has too much extension).

If you use a rectangular system, remember to adjust the orientation of the long axis of the filter in line with the long axis of your 5x4" vertical or 4x5" horizontal. The tolerance for a 2nd filter with his lens is extremely tight.

[xkaes]

Xkaes,

Where is that chart from? I'm not sure it applies to all lenses. The center filter for the 47mm XL has a filter factor of 4x or 2 stops.

-Joshua


You're right, it doesn't apply to all lens, for example fisheye lenses or those with a retro-focus design. But the 47mm is a standard optical design. The graph is based on the Cosine fourth law of light fall-off.

http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Cosine_Fourth_Falloff.pdf


Actually the Cosine 4 law would suggest something closer to FOUR f-stops for the 47 XL with a 120° picture angle.

https://www.galerie-photo.com/center_filters_for_large_format_lenses.pdf