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snaggs
14-Jun-2006, 05:09
I've just put a bid on a 4x5 Tachihara camera, and I'm looking at lenses for it. One for portraits & tele-landscapes, something like 135 or 85 in 35mm, and also something for wide-angle landscapes.

I've found a few second hand, but don't know my Sironars from Symmars..

Schneider 90mm f/8 Super Angulon
Schneider 120mm f/8 Super Angulon
Schneider Symmar 135/235 f/5.6-f/12 (is this some kind of zoom?)
Schneider Symmar 210/370 f/5.6-f/12
Schneider Symmar-S 135mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 150mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 180mm f/5.6 MC
Rodenstock Sironar-N 240mm f/5.6 MC Copal 3
Rodenstock APO Ronar 150mm f/8 Copal 0
Gandagon-N 90mm MC f/6.8
Sinar Sinaron-S 210mm f/5.6 MC

CONFUSING!!!!

What do the different Copal numbers mean? My thought were maybe to get the Sironar 240mm and the Gandaon 90mm.

Daniel.

Nick_3536
14-Jun-2006, 05:18
Copal # are the shutters the lenses are mounted in.

Basically

#0 tiny. Light weight easy to carry

#1 bigger and heavier but not too bad.

#3 Huge and heavy. Not the first choice for a lens that goes into the field.

The ones with two F/stops are convertible. Use half the lens and it's a longer focal length. With some loss of quality.

Any of the modern lenses will do fine. The issues are how you see. How much coverage do you need? How much weight are you willing to carry? Will it fit your camera? Then things like filter size.

snaggs
14-Jun-2006, 06:31
Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Weight doesn't worry me that much, I will only ever need 4x5 coverage. Will it fit my Camera.. good question.. Im getting a Tachihara... and none of these seem to be too extreme?

Daniel.

verney
14-Jun-2006, 06:44
Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Size doesn't make shutters any better or worse. Shutter size is mentioned because you need a lens board with matching size hole in order to use that lens. Getting a lens board with a rare hole size to a rare camera can be problem.

Ralph Barker
14-Jun-2006, 06:56
Lens choices can, indeed, be confusing. Although a factor of 3x is an approximate rule of thumb for equivalent focal lengths (e.g. 50mm is "normal" for 35mm, 150mm is "normal" for 4x5), it doesn't always translate to the same "look" because of the difference in aspect ratios.

There are several lens articles and comparison charts on The LF Home Page (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/) link in the blue navigation bar that you may find helpful. Essentially, the choices could be summarized as:

1. older "classic" lenses from the late 19th century and early 20th century, often in barrel (no shutter) or in older, rather basic shutters,

2. mid 20th century lenses from Ilex, Kodak, Wollensak and others, in various shutters (the S.K. Grimes site (http://www.skgrimes.com) has background info on some of these, and

3. "modern" lenses in "modern" shutters (mostly Copal).

Among the "modern" lenses, Rodenstock and Schneider are probably the most common, but Fuji and Nikkor are also common, if not as plentiful. Most lenses from any of the "Big 4" are usually considered good to excellent. Model names (e.g. Symmar-S) can be used to deduce the approximate age of the lens, and represent the evolution of a particular design over time. For example, older Schneider Symmars are often "convertible" - having two focal lengths and two aperture scales. Then came the non-convertible Symmars, followed by the Symmar-S, then the APO Symmars, and currently the Symmar L series. The incremental differences are fairly subtle.

The two most important factors in deciding on a lens might be focal length and image circle (coverage), both interpreted in relation to the camera you have - mostly the minimum and maximum bellows extension. Remember, bellows-wise, you need about 1x the focal length to focus at infinity, and about 2x to focus 1:1 close-up. Thus, having at least 1.25-1.5x the focal length in bellow extension is a good thing to ensure flexibility in use of the lens. At the wide end, lens wise, minimum bellows extension is the limiting factor, but that can sometimes be assisted by the use of recessed lens boards. With smaller front standards, however, recessed boards are limited. On my Toyo 45AX, for example, which uses 110mm boards, recessed boards are available only for lenses in Copal 0 shutters, Copal 1s being too marge to fit within the recessed area in most cases.

From there, larger apertures, particularly with wide-angle lenses, makes focusing easier. Image circle (coverage) determines how much flexibility you'll have with movements (tilt, swing, rise, fall, shift).

John Kasaian
14-Jun-2006, 07:25
210 might be a good focal length for you to start with. If your wide lens is for landscapes, then it probably isn't neccesary to go as wide as 90----maybe a 120 would fill your needs. These lens should come in a No.1 shutter which should fit nicely on your tachi's lensboard with a "No.1" hole.

Symmar or Sironar? Both are superb lenses. Select the one in the best condition, all else being equal. If you intend to shoot color, a multicoated lens is nice to have but if B&W is your forte a single coated lens will get you more bang for your buck.

Get a hold of a copy of Steve Simmons book "Using The View Camera" and read it before buying anything else---you'll get a better understanding of what you need for your first kit and that'll save you a lot of money!

Welcome to LF!

Nick_3536
14-Jun-2006, 07:25
The smaller shutters have faster top speeds. From memory

#0 1/500
#1 1/400
#3 1/125

OTOH the bigger openings of the bigger shutters allows for faster F/stops. You say that weight doesn't matter. Wait until you see a big fast lens mounted in a #3 shutter versus a similar lens mounted in a #1

robc
14-Jun-2006, 11:28
Ok, can you tell me more about the shutters? Are the heavier shutters better made or have more features? i.e. is there any downside to #0 shutters?

Weight doesn't worry me that much, I will only ever need 4x5 coverage. Will it fit my Camera.. good question.. Im getting a Tachihara... and none of these seem to be too extreme?

Daniel.

The size is dictated by the focal length of the lens. It is not a question of making a choice of one shutter size or another for a lens. The reason is because of physical aperture size.

aperture or fstop is the ratio of focal length / iris diameter.

f5.6 on a 90mm lens is 90 / 5.6 = 16.07mm which means the physical diameter of the aperture at f5.6 is 16.07mm.

f5.6 on a 300mm lens is 300 / 5.6 = 53.57mm which means the physical diameter of the aperture at f5.6 is 53.57mm.

So longer focal length lenses need bigger shutters.

One shutter size will do for several different focal lengths but the shutter needs to have the correct aperture scale on it which corresponds to the focal length of the lens.

so copal 0 is good for very short upto around 150mm lenses. Copal 1 for upto around 300mm lenses and copal 3 for the longest lenses. However, using a copal 1 on a 150mm lens would mean that you get a maximum aperture of around f5.6 whereas using the same copal 1 on a 300mm would only give a maximum aperture of around f9.

I don't have the spec figures for copal lenses so you could work out the f numbers available for each copal lens / focal length combination and besides a lens designed for copal 3 is unlikely to fit on a copal 0 shutter.

in other words you need the correct shutter size for your specific lens. Most new lenses come with the correct shutter. If you buy second hand its anyones guess whether you get the correct shutter so you should check to be sure its the correct size and that it has the correct aperture scale on it for your focal length.

The shutter size dictates the size of the hole in the lens board.

David Karp
14-Jun-2006, 11:40
Hi,

I am not the world's expert. There are plenty of people out there who know way more than me. I was in your situation once, and was totally confused by what lenses are available for LF users, how to use them, etc. So, when I knew a little bit, I wrote this article for the LF Home Page: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/. You might find it helpful.

As for the names, like Sironar, Symmar, etc. They are names like Joe and Bob, only given to lenses by the german manufacturers. The Japanese use simpler designations. Like Fujinon CM-W or Nikkor SW. It would help to know that Sironars came before Sironar-Ns, which came before APO-Sironar Ns, etc. Similarly, Symmars came before Symmar Ss, which cambe before APO-Symmars, which came before APO-Symmar Ls.

Hope this helps.

Capocheny
14-Jun-2006, 12:40
Hi,

I think it'd be wise for you to pick up a book on LF photography FIRST and FOREMOST. :)

Like a lot of folks (me included,) it sounds like you're jumping in head first and doing the due diligence later on after you've bought the "ideal" kit.

My suggestion is to do some reading FIRST. Then, jump in! The reason for this is because of its equivalent to buying a Porsche Carrerra first and then deciding that what you "really want" to do with it is to go off-roading. It ain't gonna happen! :)

Likewise for LF photography you may end up buying the a nice camera, some lenses, holders and film... only to find that the coverage of a particular lens isn't enough to cover the format.

So... do yourself a huge favor and do some reading FIRST! :)

Good luck... nice to see you wanting to join the club!

Cheers

Ron Marshall
14-Jun-2006, 13:31
Let me stress the advice which others have given here: do your research first. There is a tremendous amount of well written information in the articles on the front page of this site.

Maximum aperture will dictate shutter size. Lenses up to and including 210mm are not too heavy for field use with a maximum aperture of f5.6, above that you should choose a lens with a smaller aperture. A slightly dimmer image is easier to focus on longer focal lengths than shorter. For example: my 210mm is f5.6 and is very easy to focus in low light conditions, my 300mm f8.5 is a bit more difficult, as is my 450mm f12.5, but I chose these lenses having smaller apertures to save weight in the field. My 75mm is f4.5, because short focal lengths are easier to focus with a bright image. The trade-off is a heavier lens.

When choosing any lens think about what you might buy in the future. That way you won't have large gaps between focal lengths. Sometimes I take only a 150. Sometimes I take six lenses. My preference is for about a ratio of about 1.4 times between focal lengths. Everyone has there own system.

For a two lens kit I would buy a 135 and a 210. Then you could add a 90 to that later. But what I found is that I tend to shoot different subjects with 4x5 than 35mm or 6x6, and therefore I prefer different focal lengths. Buy used then you can resell if it doesn't suit you. Buy one lens and shoot for a few weeks to get a feel for the format.

Midwest Photo Exchange, KEH camera brokere, Badger Graphics, and a few others always have good deals on used equipment. Check their websites.

Good luck

David Karp
14-Jun-2006, 15:56
There are two excellent starter view camera books. The first is A User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone. It is an outstanding book. It goes into a bit more detail on lenses and lens types than does the other oustanding book: Simmons's Using the View Camera. I own both, and think that they complement each other very well. If I had to choose one book, I think it would be the Stone book, due to his discussion of lenses and lens designs.

snaggs
14-Jun-2006, 17:22
Thanks, it sure does!


Hi,

I am not the world's expert. There are plenty of people out there who know way more than me. I was in your situation once, and was totally confused by what lenses are available for LF users, how to use them, etc. So, when I knew a little bit, I wrote this article for the LF Home Page: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/. You might find it helpful.

As for the names, like Sironar, Symmar, etc. They are names like Joe and Bob, only given to lenses by the german manufacturers. The Japanese use simpler designations. Like Fujinon CM-W or Nikkor SW. It would help to know that Sironars came before Sironar-Ns, which came before APO-Sironar Ns, etc. Similarly, Symmars came before Symmar Ss, which cambe before APO-Symmars, which came before APO-Symmar Ls.

Hope this helps.

snaggs
14-Jun-2006, 17:27
I borrowed a shot a Linhof Tech IV and used the a Super Angulon 90 and Symmar 210 (or 240) on that. My wife bought me 3 of the Ansel Adams books for Xmas which I read (but are packed away after moving house, *groan*).

I hesitate on the Linhof, and somebody else bought it :)

Daniel.


Hi,

I think it'd be wise for you to pick up a book on LF photography FIRST and FOREMOST. :)

Like a lot of folks (me included,) it sounds like you're jumping in head first and doing the due diligence later on after you've bought the "ideal" kit.

My suggestion is to do some reading FIRST. Then, jump in! The reason for this is because of its equivalent to buying a Porsche Carrerra first and then deciding that what you "really want" to do with it is to go off-roading. It ain't gonna happen! :)

Likewise for LF photography you may end up buying the a nice camera, some lenses, holders and film... only to find that the coverage of a particular lens isn't enough to cover the format.

So... do yourself a huge favor and do some reading FIRST! :)

Good luck... nice to see you wanting to join the club!

Cheers

Darin Boville
14-Jun-2006, 17:56
Hey snaggs,

You say that weight does not matter--but yet it looks like you are focusing on field cameras and you describe your interests as being heavy on landscapes.

I put together a field kit a few years back based around a Toyo 45A camera. I was doing a landscape project.

The lenses I chose I chose based partly upon size/weight: A 90mm Nikkor f/8, a 150 Scneider G-Claron, and a Nikkor 300mm M. A nice kits, small, light, and high quality.

These are slow lenses (f/8, f/9) and thus difficult to focus in studio lighting but just fine outside.

My point is that you might reconsider the importance of size/weight in your criteria.

--Darin

www.darinboville.com

snaggs
14-Jun-2006, 18:39
I think thats a good point, I've read that Nikon made a 200mm f/8 which is Copal 0, but I can't see any available. The 210 Symmar-S MC should be Copal 1 and not too large no?

Point taken though, I'm going to restrict myself to Copal 0 or 1. The reason I don't think weight will be a big deal, is I didn't find the Linhof Technica very heavy, but then I havn't started hiking distances to take photo's, which is something I intend to do with this kit.

I've also checked, and the Gandagon f/6.8 is there slower/small wide angle, as opposed to the Gandagon f/4.5.

Daniel.

Rider
14-Jun-2006, 18:50
Why is studio lighting more difficult to focus in?

robc
14-Jun-2006, 19:45
Why is studio lighting more difficult to focus in?

cos it usually isn't as bright as daylight and if you use flash then you only get 1000th of a second to focus.

Jon Wilson
14-Jun-2006, 21:12
You have received excellent advise in this thread. I am responding based on my experience with my 4x5 tachihara and numerous lens used for both landscape and portrait work. My personal recommendation would be in the 150mm to 180mm and 240mm lens ranges. I specifically have used and recommend: 150mm G-Claron in a copal 1shutter, 180mm Nikkor-W f5.6, and 240mm Graphic Kowa f9 or 240mm G-Claron or 250mm Fujinon f6.7. The 240mm lens and the 250mm lens have sufficient coverage for up through at least 8x10 which you may wish to consider for future use. I personally prefer the larger shutter...easier on my eyes. Depending on what style of portrait work you prefer, these lens can be used for portraits or you can go with a softer look, e.g., 9" verito in a studio shutter. I have found the 300mm as the maximum use with my tachihara bellows. The beauty of the 150mm G-Claron and the 180mm Nikkor-W f5.6 lens and a 4x5 tachihara is that they can produce nice close ups.

Jon

snaggs
15-Jun-2006, 04:10
Will I have enough bellows to do head and shoulders with a 210?

Daniel.

Joseph O'Neil
15-Jun-2006, 04:53
I am reminded of a line from the movie "The Last Samurai" where the Cruise character is trying to master swordplay with some difficulty, and one of the Japanese says to him that his problem is "too many minds".

I think that's your problem right now too. Buy yourself a good quality, new or used, 135mm lens - Rodensotck, Schnider, Fuji, or Nikon. But just one. Buy one kind fo film only and stick with it. For example - all Tri-x or all HP5+ or whatever you want to try. Pick one developer too , and buy only one kind of paper - if you are doing your own darkroom work. If you are shooting colour, stick with one kind of scanner, one kind of printer, etc.

Once you have your one of everything, and your one 135mm lens, go ans shoot like this for six months. Put everything else out of your head.

I started like this myself when I first jumped into LF - I had a nice 135mm WF Ektar, and I wanted to buy more lenses, but I simply couldn't afford it right away. However, being forced to use only one lens for almost a year really taught me a lot. I also found, in my case, jumping from 120 to 4x5 was also a big learning experience in the darkrom, so to simplify matters, I used nothing but Tri-X to begin wtih, until i got a "feel" for things.

Fast forward ten years in 4x5, and now i find I have 5 cameras and about 8 or 10 lenses, so yes, the disease grows with time. :) But start with a bare minium basic setup, you'll learn more, and faster too, IMO.

joe

snaggs
15-Jun-2006, 06:11
Yes, apparently the Sinar Sironon-S 210mm f/5.6 MC is in like NEW condition in box, and comes with a Copal 1 shutter.

I was thinking I'd just go with that and worry about other lenses another time.

Daniel.

steve simmons
15-Jun-2006, 06:20
Hopefully you will see this before you buy anything.

The View Camera magazine web site has a section called Free Articles. It will have several articles that will be helpful to you.

www.viewcamera.com. There is an article called Getting Started in Large Format and one on Lens Focal Length comparisons.

steve simmons

Gary Tarbert
15-Jun-2006, 06:43
Hi Daniel My only advice is suggesting you take the format you most shoot lets say it is 35mm. which lenses do you most use ? If you have a 28mm but never use it .then why consider a 90mm for 5x4 ?My favorite lenses in 35mm where 20 , 24, 50, 85 & 200micro for 5x4 i have 58 , 65 , 90 150 & 240 (65 is not staying ) looking for 72/75.
Havn't found a way of replicating the 200 micro yet! Another tip lens speed is not crucial so don't add weight to your kit for no reason sure you get a brighter image on your ground glass but at the exspense of extra weight and $$$$. also you will find it a lot easier to standardise your filter sizes you will be surprised how often 67 appears in the LF world You would be be amazed at how much easier it is to work in the field with a set of lenses with all the same filter sizes .
Cheers Gary

Ralph Barker
15-Jun-2006, 07:44
. . . Havn't found a way of replicating the 200 micro yet! . . .

Gee, that's easy - get a 610mm APO Nikkor and put it front of about 50" of bellows. ;)

Rider
15-Jun-2006, 10:21
I use an 800mm f7 on my DSLR, which has an APS-sized sensor.

I fugure the equivalent focal lenth on my 8x10 will be around 28.8 feet. I am concerned that I might lose my Volkswagen inside the bellows.

Does anyone have a work-around?

;)

Gordon Moat
15-Jun-2006, 11:20
I like what Joseph O'Neil stated about starting with one lens. While someone going to 4x5 probably had a smaller format camera, and a few lenses, or even a zoom lens, there is a great deal to be said for simplicity. Compare any viewfinder to looking at a ground glass, and it seems apparant that a big area to work with can need a slightly different approach (I should be careful here or I might wind up with an 8x10).
:D

Another thing Joseph mentioned was a 135mm. Just happens that is what I use for most of my images. While I like the one lens idea, it does not necessarily need to be a 135mm. Interestingly, a big name advertising photographer named Andic only uses a 135mm on his 4x5 for all his work, so I guess it cannot be that bad a choice.

On the question of a head and shoulders portrait (210mm), I also have a 210mm. To compare it to my 135 mm, without moving the standard (just a straight shot), I need to be 1.5m from my subject to frame a portrait orientation image showing from the waist upwards; that same distance with my 135mm would frame from just above the subject's knees to the top of the head. To get a waist to top of head image with the 135mm, I would need to be just 1m from my subject, which is fairly close.

I think working distances might be more of an issue than which lens, though a longer lens lets you stand off more distance from your subject. Another way to do this would be to choose a comfortable distance regardless of which lens, then use cropping later for your print. Just because it is such a large area of film does not mean you always need to use all of it. There are also roll film backs, like 6x7 (cm, medium format) that sort of function as a pre-cropped image; an example using a 135mm is that a waist to shoulders image could be done from about 2m, a somewhat more comfortable distance.

Headshots would be the tough realm for shorter lenses. A 210mm used at 1m or slightly less would work, but I think it is fairly close distance to your subject. As mentioned, bellows draw could be an issue on some cameras. Some of the mathematicians in the group could probably give an exact figure for this.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat

Richard Kelham
15-Jun-2006, 11:36
Yes, apparently the Sinar Sironon-S 210mm f/5.6 MC is in like NEW condition in box, and comes with a Copal 1 shutter.

I was thinking I'd just go with that and worry about other lenses another time.

Daniel.




Sounds good to me. Apparently quite a few LF photographers start with a 210mm as their only lens, and the Sinaron-S ought to be a good'un.

snaggs
15-Jun-2006, 14:53
Hopefully you will see this before you buy anything.

The View Camera magazine web site has a section called Free Articles. It will have several articles that will be helpful to you.

www.viewcamera.com. There is an article called Getting Started in Large Format and one on Lens Focal Length comparisons.

steve simmons

Thanks Steve, still weighing up my 2nd hand options here in Oz. Most helpfull.

Daniel.

snaggs
15-Jun-2006, 20:42
Two more questions..

1) Can you get a self timer gadget if you want to include yourself in the photo's (yes, I'm vain). Not but really, sometimes you want a human somewhere in the frame, and if there is no-one else around for miles, that sometimes has to be you!

2) Do I need a loupe for ground glass foccussing?

Daniel.

Gordon Moat
15-Jun-2006, 21:10
Two more questions..

1) Can you get a self timer gadget if you want to include yourself in the photo's (yes, I'm vain). Not but really, sometimes you want a human somewhere in the frame, and if there is no-one else around for miles, that sometimes has to be you!

2) Do I need a loupe for ground glass foccussing?

Daniel.

Well for (1), there are sometimes old style selftimer devices on EBAY. Basically same type of threading as for a cable release. The other option would be a bulb type air release with a long hose. Hopefully you don't get the temptation to stand dead centre in your images, like some people's travel photos.
:rolleyes:

So for (2) it certainly makes things easier with a loupe. You might be able to fet away without one, using the lens stopped down enough. However, since you are going to all the trouble of composing the image, setting up the tripod, and lots of other things to ensure some quality, then a loupe is a good choice. I can recommend a very simple TOYO 3.6x loupe, which can be found for under $50. There are many other loupes on the market, and even more price ranges, so perhaps searching on this site will give you some other ideas on this.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat

Kirk Fry
15-Jun-2006, 21:17
Loupe??? You are wasting you time if you don't have one. The older you get the more time you would waste.