Bergger Fiber-based Papers at Freestyle

[Michael Graves]

After what seems like an eternity, Freestyle had listed as "Limited Quantities" Bergger fiber-based warm tone semi-gloss in 11x14 as available. It ain't cheap, but I ordered two packages. I wonder if I'll ever get it?

[paulbarden]

After what seems like an eternity, Freestyle had listed as "Limited Quantities" Bergger fiber-based warm tone semi-gloss in 11x14 as available. It ain't cheap, but I ordered two packages. I wonder if I'll ever get it?

Must have been very limited quantities - there's none there now.

[Michael Graves]

That was pretty fast. Makes me wonder if I'm going to get my order or a cancellation of said. I had reached out to Bergger about two months ago and asked about the status of that paper in the US and they said that they had just resumed production and that a "limited supply" would be available to distributors in early 2025. I hope that means that they are bringing it back to life. And I'm sorry I cried wolf, Paul.

[paulbarden]

That was pretty fast. Makes me wonder if I'm going to get my order or a cancellation of said. I had reached out to Bergger about two months ago and asked about the status of that paper in the US and they said that they had just resumed production and that a "limited supply" would be available to distributors in early 2025. I hope that means that they are bringing it back to life. And I'm sorry I cried wolf, Paul.

I'm pretty sure that Berger contracts Harman to manufacture their papers for them. I once did some tests and printed the same image on both Berger Warm Tone Glossy and Ilford WT Glossy and the prints were nearly identical. Seemed to me the two papers were pretty much interchangeable, so you could buy the Ilford product and it would do the job much the same.

[Payral]

Base paper color is not the same.

[Sal Santamaura]

After what seems like an eternity, Freestyle had listed as "Limited Quantities" Bergger fiber-based warm tone semi-gloss in 11x14 as available. It ain't cheap, but I ordered two packages. I wonder if I'll ever get it?


Must have been very limited quantities - there's none there now.

Apparently Bergger started with 11x14. B&H has it (and no other sizes) in stock:


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/232204-REG/Bergger_VCCBS1114_25_VC_CB_Warm_Tone_Black.html

A maximum of 5 is permitted in one's cart. I don't know whether that's all they have or it's simply the way they prevent a single customer from buying everything at once.


I'm pretty sure that Berger contracts Harman to manufacture their papers for them. I once did some tests and printed the same image on both Berger Warm Tone Glossy and Ilford WT Glossy and the prints were nearly identical. Seemed to me the two papers were pretty much interchangeable, so you could buy the Ilford product and it would do the job much the same.


Base paper color is not the same.

I've performed the UV test on my 8x10 package of a previous purchase of this paper and determined that it contains optical brightener in the paper base. Glow is slightly reduced on the image side, so there's probably no brightener added to the emulsion. Based on a reliable report


https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/has-adox-mcc-110-changed.107990/page-2#post-1426034

stating all darkroom paper manufacturers in the West, including HARMAN, are using one kind of Schöeller paper base, I strongly suspect that Bergger's Warmtone Semi-Glossy product has its base color imparted by dyeing prior to coating. If that's the case, anyone concerned about print life expectancy would need to worry not only about brighteners burning out, but the base dye fading too.

In my opinion, should Bergger wish to offer an extremely unique paper, it ought have HARMAN coat a VC-NB neutral tone version with the same semi-glossy finish. Going one step further, I'd pay twice B&H's $115 11x14 price if Bergger went the extra mile and sourced a (not "ivory") base without optical brighteners, either from Schöeller or perhaps Hahnemühle, which offers a baryta inkjet paper -- FineArt Baryta Satin -- that's OBA-free and an exact match for Rising white mat board, and coated a neutral VC emulsion on it, then gave it the semi-glossy finish. Yes, I'm dreaming Payral, but it doesn't hurt to ask. :)

[paulbarden]

Base paper color is not the same.

Which is why I said "nearly identical". The emulsions behaved identically, the contrast grades were identical, and aside from the paper color, the finished images were identical.

[landstrykere]

I'm pretty sure that Berger contracts Harman to manufacture their papers for them.


Bergger (two g) never manfactured their papers nor films, they only are the authors of the emulsions. I believed its history was known, but just in case: there was a main old French manufacturer of photographic material since the 1850's: Guilleminot. They closed down in 93 or 94. Their last engineer, Guy Gérard, decided to keep doing business in the niche of art paper/high quality papers, with his own emulsions, derivated from his experience at Guilleminot. Guillleminot had two factories (Chantilly, Amboise) that were completely dismantled. Gérard had only his formulas and deep knowledge of manufacturing processes. He founded Bergger in 95 and like everybody in the 90's went around former COMECON block, from Balkans to Russia,, in search of manufacturing options. Finally it was Forte (Hungary) that manufactured//coated the papers for a while. Besides Bergger was reselling Efke and Forte films.
When Forte closed, Bergger went elsewhere and that is probably Harman.
Similarly the Pancro 400 films are Bergger's emulsions but were coated by Inoviscoat and subsequently affected by its turmoil. Bergger now also sells chemicals and these are also manufactured in Germany, contrary to their papers and films, this is clearly mentioned on their site. Guy Gérard retired few years ago and sold to a known French reseller of photographic material: Labo Argentique. This is the actual business back the brand now.

[Michael R]

I had assumed Bergger materials were made by Inoviscoat which I thought could explain why they disappeared. I really have no idea though. interneg would probably know.

[MartyNL]

I've tried a number of the BERGGER fibre based papers and in my view, the Prestige Variable CB Style was by far my favourite.
Warm tone, Chlorobromide, Ivory base and an egg-shell finish like no other photographic paper I've ever seen or had the pleasure to handle.

[Drew Wiley]

The "Neutral" tone Prestige VCFB was certainly not like anything Ilford itself offered, even if coated by Harman, or really, the same as any other paper I've ever tried. Harman VC Fineprint comes the closest, but is certainly not identical. I can't speak for the warm tone version.

[landstrykere]

I had assumed Bergger materials were made by Inoviscoat which I thought could explain why they disappeared.

films only. It is mentioned on the package: "Made in Germany". And who does contract coating in Germany?

exple a box of 120:

https://i.postimg.cc/5191jQPC/photo-2025-02-03-19-58-00.jpg



papers have a "Made in the United Kingdom" mention excepted the cotton papers COT320, COT160, said made in France (mais par qui? il semble que celà leur arracherait la gueule de le dire).


Forte stopped production in 2007, and by the time 3 facilities in Europe did baryta coating: Ilford, Kentmere, Foma. Actually 4, with Slavich but now EU has severed itself from Russia drastically so it is in practice the 3 mentioned. Well rather 2.
Around 2007 Bergger RC was manufactured already by Kentmere, only the baryta was done by Forte. With Forte closing, Bergger baryta was being Kentmere or Ilford (Harman). But then It may have been around that time that Kentmere was swallowed into Harman, so for UK it leaves only Harman.

at least the emulsions are theirs.


Small articles are scattered over the years here and there in French. Here a short summary in a local paper, in 2015, updated 2017:
https://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/amboise/l-histoire-de-la-pellicule-est-terminee-a-amboise

Il y a quelques mois, la dernière trace d'une industrie de la photographie à Amboise disparaissait. La société Bergger était vendue à un revendeur de produits photographiques installé dans le Limousin. Cette vente mettait fin à 75 ans de présence de cette filière à Amboise sous le nom de Guilleminot.

(this was when Guy Gérard passed Bergger to Aurélien Leduc (Labo Argentique) who had been already working with him. Le "revendeur de produits photographiques" = Labo Argentique.)

...Le directeur technique de l'époque, Guy Gérard, embauché chez Guilleminot en 1963, décida de poursuivre l'aventure. En 1995, il crée Bergger. .../.... Guy Gérard crée une petite cellule, chez un fabricant, pour appliquer ses formules chimiques. Les produits sont fabriqués en Hongrie, et aujourd'hui en Angleterre. Il est en contact avec les écoles de photos qui retrouvent le traitement argentique. En 2014, il va en Russie pour trouver une usine qui produits des films. ...

the journalist was compacting a lot a timeline but then as of 2015 :"Hongrie .... aujourd'hui en Angleterre". So it is Harman/Ilford since 2015 it seems. The 2014 travel in Russia for film was certainly to Tasma in Kazan, but then nothing came of this. Instead there was the InovisCoat deal

[Michael Graves]

Base paper color is not the same.

That was my impression as well. Also, the Bergger seems to take selenium toning better. In any case, of the two packages I ordered only one came in...while the other is listed as back-ordered. Freestyle didn't cancel the order so that suggest they expect more to come in.

[Sal Santamaura]

Base paper color is not the same.


That was my impression as well...


...I've performed the UV test on my 8x10 package of a previous purchase of this paper and determined that it contains optical brightener in the paper base. Glow is slightly reduced on the image side, so there's probably no brightener added to the emulsion. Based on a reliable report


https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/has-adox-mcc-110-changed.107990/page-2#post-1426034

stating all darkroom paper manufacturers in the West, including HARMAN, are using one kind of Schöeller paper base, I strongly suspect that Bergger's Warmtone Semi-Glossy product has its base color imparted by dyeing prior to coating. If that's the case, anyone concerned about print life expectancy would need to worry not only about brighteners burning out, but the base dye fading too...


...of the two packages I ordered only one came in...while the other is listed as back-ordered. Freestyle didn't cancel the order so that suggest they expect more to come in.


Apparently Bergger started with 11x14. B&H has it (and no other sizes) in stock:


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/232204-REG/Bergger_VCCBS1114_25_VC_CB_Warm_Tone_Black.html

A maximum of 5 is permitted in one's cart. I don't know whether that's all they have or it's simply the way they prevent a single customer from buying everything at once...

In the two weeks since I posted that, B&H's stock has slowly decremented to zero. There's no way to know whether it initially had more than five packages, but it has sold all it initially received within the last few days.

[interneg]

I had assumed Bergger materials were made by Inoviscoat

As others have said:

all current film products: Inovis (the print film is a cinema print film)
darkroom paper: Harman
cotton rag paper: Arches

I do wonder what planet or viewing conditions people are looking at some of these papers under - they might have roughly similar grade spacings to Harman equivalents, but they look very considerably different under proper lighting. Same as the Moersch warmtone of a while back that people swore until they were purple was the same as MGWT, but was very much not - it was a Harman interpretation of Forte PWT that ended up landing somewhere in the middle between the two (likely because of the emulsion research costs necessary to truly remake PWT with significant improvements - as Adox have essentially found out). I do sometimes wish that people who take over these threads with obsessive posting about dyes and brighteners would get on and raise the funds to discover that their desired paper would probably end up rather yellow for their taste...

[Sal Santamaura]

...I do sometimes wish that people who take over these threads with obsessive posting about dyes and brighteners would get on and raise the funds to discover that their desired paper would probably end up rather yellow for their taste...

Now, now, "take over?" Why the dramatic rhetoric about two posts of many?

As for "rather yellow for my taste," please re-read what I originally wrote in this thread:


...In my opinion, should Bergger wish to offer an extremely unique paper, it ought have HARMAN coat a VC-NB neutral tone version with the same semi-glossy finish. Going one step further, I'd pay twice B&H's $115 11x14 price if Bergger went the extra mile and sourced a (not "ivory") base without optical brighteners, either from Schöeller or perhaps Hahnemühle, which offers a baryta inkjet paper -- FineArt Baryta Satin -- that's OBA-free and an exact match for Rising white mat board, and coated a neutral VC emulsion on it, then gave it the semi-glossy finish...

Neither Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta Satin nor Rising white mat board are "yellow." Agfa Multicontrast Classic 111 base: that was yellow.

[interneg]

Now, now, "take over?" Why the dramatic rhetoric about two posts of many?

As for "rather yellow for my taste," please re-read what I originally wrote in this thread:



Neither Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta Satin nor Rising white mat board are "yellow." Agfa Multicontrast Classic 111 base: that was yellow.


You bring it up every single time Bergger papers are mentioned - Bergger actually carried through on their requirement for the surface they wanted and took on the financial risk required to do so. If the surface finish and colour that you keep stating you want are as important to people making prints as they are to you, then surely it is worth actually looking into getting it toll coated?

As for colour, raw photo grade gelatins are pretty yellow - and a thin coating would bring you close enough to the 'ivory' Bergger colour to leave questions about whether it has any major gelatin colour alterations or not. That is what I was implying. It may not be dyed/ pigmented, or only very minimally - much like Fomatone 532 was (as compared to 131/132/542 etc). Getting truly 'white' darkroom papers took until the 1950s and the advent of the fluorescent brighteners.

With materials that don't use gelatin (HFABS proclaims itself vegan) - hence no yellow cast from the gel - and/ or aren't carrying photographic emulsions on top, there are more options involving pigments etc - a 'natural' white is largely closer to something around Hahnemuhle's Bamboo paper - anything whiter than that needs TiO2 or similar if you are to avoid fluoro brightener. Most industrial pulps are bleached/ dyed/ pigmented to a given shade, they aren't truly 'natural', just roughly what people would think 'natural' is - and that can be made consistently and with sufficent fade-free life.

[Sal Santamaura]

You bring it up every single time Bergger papers are mentioned...

Indeed I do. This is a forum where opinions may be expressed.


...If the surface finish and colour that you keep stating you want are as important to people making prints as they are to you, then surely it is worth actually looking into getting it toll coated?...

I sincerely doubt that the surface finish and color I'd prefer are important to many other people, if any. That's why, even at this forum, virtually no one posts agreement with my preferences. I'm not a wealthy person, and, lacking a very large lottery jackpot, wouldn't presume to risk any funds on such an endeavor. Which does nothing to impede my expression of opinions.


...As for colour, raw photo grade gelatins are pretty yellow - and a thin coating would bring you close enough to the 'ivory' Bergger colour to leave questions about whether it has any major gelatin colour alterations or not. That is what I was implying...

Anyone who doesn't have experience in photographic manufacturing cannot be expected to know that. Perhaps explanation would be more effective than implication.


...It may not be dyed/ pigmented, or only very minimally - much like Fomatone 532 was (as compared to 131/132/542 etc). Getting truly 'white' darkroom papers took until the 1950s and the advent of the fluorescent brighteners...

A cursory search into photo grade gelatins reveals that, unlike the common (and less expensive ) cow-based versions, pig-based products can be much less yellow. Which would lead to a higher paper price, which I am -- but no one else seems to be -- willing to pay.


...With materials that don't use gelatin (HFABS proclaims itself vegan) - hence no yellow cast from the gel - and/ or aren't carrying photographic emulsions on top, there are more options involving pigments etc - a 'natural' white is largely closer to something around Hahnemuhle's Bamboo paper - anything whiter than that needs TiO2 or similar if you are to avoid fluoro brightener. Most industrial pulps are bleached/ dyed/ pigmented to a given shade, they aren't truly 'natural', just roughly what people would think 'natural' is - and that can be made consistently and with sufficent fade-free life.

Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta Satin contains no optical brightening agent in its base or coatings (I've physically confirmed that). Its specifications make no mention of TiO2. Its whiteness rating is 92 vs. Bamboo's 83, which I attribute to the former's barium sulfate coating. When one observes the whiteness of FineArt Baryta Satin, it seems one's essentially seeing the baryta, not the paper below it.

A carefully selected pig gelatin-based emulsion atop something like FineArt Baryta Satin (without inkjet coatings) would appear to accomplish what I seek. Not that it would have much chance of being a commercially successful product in today's market. But my wife does insist on buying Powerball tickets when the jackpot approaches $1 billion, so who knows? :)

[Michael Graves]

I just got a notification from Freestyle that my backordered package of the Bergger warm-tone shipped. And as of three minutes ago, they were showing 8x10 and 11x14 as being in stock.