interior portrait lens options

[soulstar89]

Hey everyone,

Im new here and also new to 4x5. I recently got a wista 45VX with a 150mm fujinon lens. I have found the 150mm rather tight for environmental portraits where the environment takes up more coverage of the frame to showcase what makes the talent them.

I've learned that trying to compare what I shoot is say 35mm format isn't an ideal match-up. There are many options 90, 105,110, 120,125,135. I know this is a individual preference but I would love a little guidance to help me on the right track.

I look forward to learning alot from this forum.

Cheers


Soulstar

[bdkphoto]

I used a 90, 135, and a 150. You really need the choices as no set-up/interior/subject is the same. I preferred to work with the longer focal lengths where possible, but in the end, especially for assignment work, I always preferred 6x7 (when I was shooting film) as it afforded much more flexibility and the ability to shoot more, and do multiple set-ups if time and the subjects allowed.

[Ulophot]

When I was in your shoes a few years ago, but with only a 210, I spend a good while pondering a choice. I landed on 135 and found a Nikkor 5.6 in a 7-bladed Copal 1 in excellent condition from a member here. (There's a waiting period before your board membership opens the classifieds for you; you can find the time period in the info page.) In 35 and 645, I no longer go wider than 35 and 55 respectively; the 135 is quite close to them. I would rather meet the challenges with it than get the side and corner "stretch" that a 90 would tend to create, and for the kind of portraits I make, it's wide enough. And it's a nice complement outdoors as well.

I recently have a project involving a series of so-called environmental portraits, for which I worked through beforehand ow far my subject could be from frame central without appreciable shape distortion. It was more than I thought and I was pleased with it. I'd love a bit more depth of field, but wouldn't most of us often enough.

[Mick Fagan]

I've done a few indoor environmental portraits and in the main I agree, the 150mm focal length is a bit on the tight side.

More than a few times I've used my 90mm (Fujinon SW f/8 90mm) with reasonable to monstrous (rear) shift to showcase a subject at their workbench; with the workbench jutting to one side and limited tripod placement, 90mm just works. My 90mm lens is my workhorse lens, inside and outside it is incredibly handy to have.

Depending on the amount of shift you use, or can use, (I have 40mm rear shift either side), you may also find a bag bellows helps to keep your standard bellows from getting premature ageing, or death by a thousand twists.

90mm is possibly the easiest focal length to find at a reasonable price. As you are starting in the 4x5" format, you may wish to consider the filter element size as a possible consideration for future focal length lenses.

My main filter size is 67mm, which covers my 65mm, 90mm, 210mm and 250mm lenses. For 150mm I have the Fujinon f/6.3 150mm lens running a 49mm filter thread. On this I use a step-up ring to 52mm and use my old Nikon filters, but I can, and have used, multiple step-up rings to use a 67mm filter.

Attached is a picture of my 90mm lens, bag bellows and around 35mm of rear shift.

255555

[soulstar89]

I used a 90, 135, and a 150. You really need the choices as no set-up/interior/subject is the same. I preferred to work with the longer focal lengths where possible, but in the end, especially for assignment work, I always preferred 6x7 (when I was shooting film) as it afforded much more flexibility and the ability to shoot more, and do multiple set-ups if time and the subjects allowed.

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for the tips. I’m based not many stores have Large format lenses in London here in the UK. With my 6x7 mamiya rz67 I have a 65mm lens. I need to go through the home page info to see how 6x7 lens convert to 4x5. I find the aspect ratio extremely similar.

[soulstar89]

When I was in your shoes a few years ago, but with only a 210, I spend a good while pondering a choice. I landed on 135 and found a Nikkor 5.6 in a 7-bladed Copal 1 in excellent condition from a member here. (There's a waiting period before your board membership opens the classifieds for you; you can find the time period in the info page.) In 35 and 645, I no longer go wider than 35 and 55 respectively; the 135 is quite close to them. I would rather meet the challenges with it than get the side and corner "stretch" that a 90 would tend to create, and for the kind of portraits I make, it's wide enough. And it's a nice complement outdoors as well.

I recently have a project involving a series of so-called environmental portraits, for which I worked through beforehand ow far my subject could be from frame central without appreciable shape distortion. It was more than I thought and I was pleased with it. I'd love a bit more depth of field, but wouldn't most of us often enough.

Hey Philip,

As I’m in the UK a forum 5x4 suggested the classified here also but like you stated you have a waiting period. That’s fine as I need to pin point what focal length. In 6x7 my mamiya lens kit is 65mm, 110mm and 180mm.

With the 90mm does the corner differ from lens to lens? At what focal length does this characteristic start to go away?

I’m a big fan of interior shots of Jeff wall particularly the shoot of a man which looks like his room where hundreds of light bulbs are hung from his ceiling. I also like Gregory crewdsons interiors from dream house and beneath the roses. Granted crewdson is on the extreme spectrum.

[soulstar89]

I've done a few indoor environmental portraits and in the main I agree, the 150mm focal length is a bit on the tight side.

More than a few times I've used my 90mm (Fujinon SW f/8 90mm) with reasonable to monstrous (rear) shift to showcase a subject at their workbench; with the workbench jutting to one side and limited tripod placement, 90mm just works. My 90mm lens is my workhorse lens, inside and outside it is incredibly handy to have.

Depending on the amount of shift you use, or can use, (I have 40mm rear shift either side), you may also find a bag bellows helps to keep your standard bellows from getting premature ageing, or death by a thousand twists.

90mm is possibly the easiest focal length to find at a reasonable price. As you are starting in the 4x5" format, you may wish to consider the filter element size as a possible consideration for future focal length lenses.

My main filter size is 67mm, which covers my 65mm, 90mm, 210mm and 250mm lenses. For 150mm I have the Fujinon f/6.3 150mm lens running a 49mm filter thread. On this I use a step-up ring to 52mm and use my old Nikon filters, but I can, and have used, multiple step-up rings to use a 67mm filter.

Attached is a picture of my 90mm lens, bag bellows and around 35mm of rear shift.

255555

Really helpful information Mick thanks. My wista only has tilt and swing on the rear standard. Rise/fall, shift, tilt and swing is on the front standard. This rabbit hole of learning is never ending.

I never thought about filters size actually another great advise.

I find with the FUJINON 150mm 5.6, my eyes need to be in line with the Center of the lens, otherwise it dims a lot while indoors. How is focusing and brightness of the ground glass indoors with your f8 lens?

[jnantz]

hi ss89

If you use something like a Schneider SuperAngulon type 90mm lens you won't have a problem, they come up used and the chrome barreled ones are a steal ( it's gotta be a SUPER angulon, not an angulon ). with longer lenses .. you won't be able to get the environment in your environmental portrait ( unless the environment being hinted at is the point and seeing you mentioned Crewdson ... ) unless you are on a scaffold or are being suspended you 'll probably need a wide lens. I really wouldn't worry about lens distortion in the edges, it's photography. im not sure what kind of money you have to spend but if you can get something like a lumedyne light kit ( 001 head and 065 battery pack) ... you won't be unhappy .. using a regular sunpak with a pc cord works well too. I've been shooting these types of environmental portraits with both these sorts of lights for a while ( from 35mm to 5xx7, on commission, as a photojournalist and for personal projects ) it's a lot of fun. if you'll be doing it to strangers, it's tricky to loosen them up so they aren't stiff. physical comedy and self deprecating humor helps.
good luck !

[Mick Fagan]

My 90mm f/8 isn't the brightest once you are away from the centre(ish) part of the image, you get used to working out where to have correct focus, and where to have reasonably sharp focus in the image.

I have a very bright LED torch in my camera bag, I sometimes use the torch in my left hand to shine on something I need to get correct focus with, while using my right hand to adjust the focusing rail. I usually then shine the torch on various parts of the scene while looking on the ground glass to get an overall feel of just how well focused the rest of the scene looks on the ground glass. I never use the torch if a person is in the scene, the torch is that bright!

Practice, practice and more practice, to give you the feel of how things work, is the best advice I can give.

The very best part of using view cameras, is that you can make one exposure, then develop the negative to see just how well you've done, or not done. Minimal film wastage, and depending on how you organise your film developing, the whole single test sheet thing, is a reasonably cheap and valuable learning exercise.

I made an error in my previous post, my Fujinon f/6.3 150mm lens, has a 40.5mm filter thread, not a 49mm filter thread. Regardless, filter thread sizes can make a bit of a difference, but with the help of step-up or step-down rings, one can, within reason, keep expenses down.

[Mark Sampson]

i'll second the use of a 90/8 Super-Angulon (or any other lens in its class). I'll also suggest studying the work of Arnold Newman, the master of 20th-century environmental portraiture, to understand his use of wide-angle lenses.

[soulstar89]

hi ss89

If you use something like a Schneider SuperAngulon type 90mm lens you won't have a problem, they come up used and the chrome barreled ones are a steal ( it's gotta be a SUPER angulon, not an angulon ). with longer lenses .. you won't be able to get the environment in your environmental portrait ( unless the environment being hinted at is the point and seeing you mentioned Crewdson ... ) unless you are on a scaffold or are being suspended you 'll probably need a wide lens. I really wouldn't worry about lens distortion in the edges, it's photography. im not sure what kind of money you have to spend but if you can get something like a lumedyne light kit ( 001 head and 065 battery pack) ... you won't be unhappy .. using a regular sunpak with a pc cord works well too. I've been shooting these types of environmental portraits with both these sorts of lights for a while ( from 35mm to 5xx7, on commission, as a photojournalist and for personal projects ) it's a lot of fun. if you'll be doing it to strangers, it's tricky to loosen them up so they aren't stiff. physical comedy and self deprecating humor helps.
good luck !

Hey,

Thanks for having some input. Was busy yesterday so couldn’t reply back. I used my wista with the 150mm 5.6 this morning, both indoors and outside. Outside it’s bright and fine, indoors, I have to be at least 40cm away from the ground glass to be fully illuminated and bright. Is that normal and something I should get used to?

I’m based in London and a photography store has the lens you suggest in stock. I’ll bring my camera and check it out.

On the lights. Cheers for the recommendations. I checked but couldn’t find the one’s you suggested. Do they have enough power to fire at f64? I’m currently using/borrowing Elinchrome D-lite rx4. I learn’t with these so I’ve been able to borrow them.

I also learnt that finding the “angle of view” of a lens I like, it will help with achieving similar horizontal angle of view. The learning never stops lol.


My favourite photographers for environmental shots with people are Duane michals, Gregory crewdson, Jeff wall, Philip Lorca dicorica. I’ll be creating a mix of Duane Michals shots with text on print and Gregory crewdson style. I have learnt that even though I love the look of continuous lighting. It’s not realistic or possible to do what crewdson does unless you are in a sound stage and have film lighting. I’ll want to start with baby steps, slow and steady.

[soulstar89]

My 90mm f/8 isn't the brightest once you are away from the centre(ish) part of the image, you get used to working out where to have correct focus, and where to have reasonably sharp focus in the image.

I have a very bright LED torch in my camera bag, I sometimes use the torch in my left hand to shine on something I need to get correct focus with, while using my right hand to adjust the focusing rail. I usually then shine the torch on various parts of the scene while looking on the ground glass to get an overall feel of just how well focused the rest of the scene looks on the ground glass. I never use the torch if a person is in the scene, the torch is that bright!

Practice, practice and more practice, to give you the feel of how things work, is the best advice I can give.

The very best part of using view cameras, is that you can make one exposure, then develop the negative to see just how well you've done, or not done. Minimal film wastage, and depending on how you organise your film developing, the whole single test sheet thing, is a reasonably cheap and valuable learning exercise.

I made an error in my previous post, my Fujinon f/6.3 150mm lens, has a 40.5mm filter thread, not a 49mm filter thread. Regardless, filter thread sizes can make a bit of a difference, but with the help of step-up or step-down rings, one can, within reason, keep expenses down.

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the advise. You are so right about practicing. I shoot a mamiya rz67 proII. It has bellows so I have many steps o have to do before I take a shot. I thought I would be prepared for large format due to this. OH MY WAS I WRONG. I practiced by myself for days before a test shoot with talent. All I can say is I’ve a lot to learn. I kept making silly mistakes. The most important I learnt is “learn the camera and ALL movements before you starts composing”

[soulstar89]

i'll second the use of a 90/8 Super-Angulon (or any other lens in its class). I'll also suggest studying the work of Arnold Newman, the master of 20th-century environmental portraiture, to understand his use of wide-angle lenses.

Hey mark,

I have had never heard of Arnold Newman before you suggested. Thank you mate. His portraits are a great reference for me.

Composing on 6x7 and 4x7 in landscape orientation always seems like I don’t have enough width. It’s due to me working in tv and film and used to looking at wider aspect ratios. When I print that feeling goes away. It’s weird.

[Ulophot]

Soulstar, as inidcated, I'm on the conservative side on wide lenses. I used a 75 Super-angulon for years, for commercial work, emphaitcally including interiors for architects. I use a bag bellows as well as a recessed lens board, which had gotten me through before I could afford the bag bellows. Your camera design and need for movements will determine your needs in this department.

I must leave to others more expert further advice on specific lens corrections for the "corner" stretch. My taste is to avoid it. Ansel Adams, perhaps in the Polaroid book, gives an example of a 90 (I think) for a portrait, in which his subject is placed near the edge of the frame. In the first illustration, no movements were used, resulting in obvious shape distortion on the head. In the second, he had placed the subject closer to the center and then used shift to move him over toward the edge, so that the composition was similar but without the evident distortion. Good lesson.

EDIT: My reporting is not quite accurate, but the principal is correct. Pg 114 in Poloroid Land Photography, 1978 edition

[6x6TLL]

150mm (normal lens) I agree is on the tight side for environmental portraiture.

I have a 90mm Grandagon-N and find it a bit on the wide side for that kind of portrait, although it excels in landscape work.

Obviously the location and context will matter, how you place your subject versus the background that you want to help convey their story. If space is tight, I can certainly see a 90mm being very useful. Personally I would prefer something in between 150mm and 90mm, between 110mm and 135mm would be ideal. The Rodenstock Sironar-S 135mm f5.6 is a lens you'll never part with, they also offer a 120mm f5.6 Apo-Macro-Sironar that may or may not fit your needs, depending on how close you typically shoot from. It's optimized for 1:5 and closer.

Mick has great tips for getting your focus dialed in when lack of light is an issue (and it's almost always an issue).

[Vaidotas]

I’d vote for Grandagon 115mm or 120 Super Angulon - both outstanding performers.
Just can’t imagine portraiture with wider lenses on 4x5.

[jnantz]

<....> Just can’t imagine portraiture with wider lenses on 4x5.

Hi Vaidotas: I know, I know! But once you start it's hard to stop, it ends up being a sickness ...
and then there's the intervention ... they force you to do cropped headless / armless views ! :)

[jnantz]

Hey,

Thanks for having some input. Was busy yesterday so couldn’t reply back. I used my wista with the 150mm 5.6 this morning, both indoors and outside. Outside it’s bright and fine, indoors, I have to be at least 40cm away from the ground glass to be fully illuminated and bright. Is that normal and something I should get used to?

I’m based in London and a photography store has the lens you suggest in stock. I’ll bring my camera and check it out.

On the lights. Cheers for the recommendations. I checked but couldn’t find the one’s you suggested. Do they have enough power to fire at f64? I’m currently using/borrowing Elinchrome D-lite rx4. I learn’t with these so I’ve been able to borrow them.

I also learnt that finding the “angle of view” of a lens I like, it will help with achieving similar horizontal angle of view. The learning never stops lol.


My favourite photographers for environmental shots with people are Duane michals, Gregory crewdson, Jeff wall, Philip Lorca dicorica. I’ll be creating a mix of Duane Michals shots with text on print and Gregory crewdson style. I have learnt that even though I love the look of continuous lighting. It’s not realistic or possible to do what crewdson does unless you are in a sound stage and have film lighting. I’ll want to start with baby steps, slow and steady.

sounds like you 've got a plan, ..
Tiffen owns Lowel Light now and they have a UK presence, keep an eye on their clearance area, sometimes you can find L Light Location Kits ( continuous light ) at a very reasonable price ..

[soulstar89]

This thread has been very helpful. I’m now deciding on the FUJINON 125mm cmw 5.6 or the FUJINON 135mm nw 5.6. I will be shooting 4x5 & 6x12 (cropping sheet film) so the horizontal will be 121mm. In 6x12 I actually like 90mm for a cinematic environmental shot. The 125mm has a wider angle of view but I can step back a few steps to get the same framing in the 135mm. The 135mm has a smaller thread and I’ll be able to fold it in my wista. The 125mm on the other hand has a 67mm filter thread and I doubt I’ll be able to close my wista with that lens.

I wish I could get both but my set up on 4x5 is going to be three lens. I’ve been thinking of making my wista a 6x12 camera. 75-125-210 or 90-135-210. I don’t think I’ll have much movements with 75mm and also the corner full off will be more with 75mm. Decisions give me a headache. Lol

Off to try both the 125mm and 135mm.