Mechanical Self Timer

[Mick Fagan]

For quite some time I've been using a bulb attached to a 6m hosepipe to fire my shutters for various family gathering photographs. Well the rubber, or whatever the material is, is starting to perish/crack, so rather than replace the bulb and hosepipe I've been thinking of a mechanical self timer type mechanism.

I don't know much about them, apart from what I've seen in advertisements on ebay.

I run Seiko and Copal shutters; if that means anything.

Any recommendations, hints and what to look out for, would be appreciated.

[nlambrecht]

I have a self timer that I use for family self portraits, with mixed results. I ordered mine from ebay and there are a couple of things I would look out for. The first one I purchased was not designed for a long enough throw that would trigger a copal shutter, it was meant more for a mechanical 35mm. Being on ebay there was no information on this. Second, the clockwork mechanism that may be old and not have enough energy to trigger the shutter. The second one I purchased had this problem, but I took a spring from the first one that gave it some more power. I still have some times when it can not trigger a copal shutter, but if I "warm it up" by triggering it a few times it helps. Lastly, the one I have is a little bulky and has trouble mounting to a camera with a Linhoff board. Part of the camera get in the way, so I have to use a shutter release extender. Don't get me wrong, for what it is it works, but it may be frustrating if you get the wrong one.

The one I purchased that works with a long enough throw:
254768

[munz6869]

Mick, I've been using Reveni-Labs' wireless remote, and that's been fab! For many years, every Xmas family photo had me standing with a rubber bulb in hand, and it's been a delight to avoid that! It works really well, and gives a bit more certainty than a mechanical timer... Heartily recommend.

https://www.reveni-labs.com/shop/p/remote-control-mechanical-shutter-release

Marc!

[paulbarden]

I've tried several of those vintage style self-timers, and they work with smaller, simpler shutters, but they don't have enough power to fire most of my large format shutters, like the Copals and the Ilex.

[Oren Grad]

I've tried several of those vintage style self-timers, and they work with smaller, simpler shutters, but they don't have enough power to fire most of my large format shutters, like the Copals and the Ilex.

+1. I too have tried several, and I have yet to find one that works reliably with the shutters of my LF lenses.

We had some discussion of the Reveni Labs remote in this thread:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?169265-Reveni-Labs-Remote-Control-Mechanical-Shutter-Release

[xkaes]

I haven't had any problems with the simple mechanical timer on my dozen or so Copal shutters (#0, #1, #3) -- but none of them are pre-1980's shutters. On mine, the length of the release pin can be adjusted for the shutter. That can make all the difference.

[jk0592]

The Reveni Labs remote has been out of stock for many months now.

[Mick Fagan]

Nathan and Paul, both of you supplied me with great information with regard to mechanical units. I never would have thought these units would have issues with tripping Copal and other shutters, but it appears they can have issues.

Marc I didn't know you had one of these Reveni Labs units, seems like you are very pleased with it.

Oren, thanks for the link to a thread that I missed when it was a new thread, it didn't come up with a search on the forum. Your views and comments, as well as Marc's, have tipped me towards getting one.

jk0592, looking at their website, they mention that they will be available in December 2024. I've included myself to be notified when that happens. We'll see!

A question for those that have these Reveni units:

I have a couple of quite short throw shutters and a couple of long throw shutters, do the Reveni units require adjustment to cover short and long throw shutters, or are they self adjusting, or am I worrying about something that doesn't matter?

[munz6869]

Mick if you're ever in the city during the week, let me know and I'll bring it in for show & tell!!

Marc!

[Mick Fagan]

Mick if you're ever in the city during the week, let me know and I'll bring it in for show & tell!!

Marc!

Thanks Marc, I'll pm you.

[ProfessorWoland]

I know this is a very old thread, but still...
Does anyone have an idea how to find a self timer for a Sinar DB shutter? An extra long cable or pneumatic release would do as well. The pneumatic release that I have does not fit onto the shutter. Works well with a Rolleiflex but the DB shutter is deep and needs a long pin to trigger.

[Oren Grad]

The Reveni Labs remote has been out of stock for many months now.

I received an email from Reveni Labs reporting that it's back in stock as of today (Dec 2, 2024).

[Mick Fagan]

Oren, thanks for the stock update, I received one as well, only it was over breakfast Dec 3, 2024 in Australia.

I immediately ordered one, the confirmation email came back as being received in Canada at 17:02hrs Dec 2.

Now the wait begins.

[rfesk]

I have been using an old one branded by Kodak. Works pretty well.
Tried to make my own using a remote solenoid from model airplane but not enough throw or power if the throw was increased.
So Reveni Labs should be the best.

[Mick Fagan]

An update.

As mentioned previously, I ordered one on December the second. I received a confirmation email that my order had been processed and shipped on December the ninth.

There was a tracking number which I've been checking every day since, but nothing has happened until this morning December the sixteenth (Australian time/date).

Apparently it is in the USA, at least I think it is in the USA. Folcraft PA 19032 US, which seems to be in the USA.

I'm hopeful I'll see it within a few weeks or so.

[cowanw]

I ordered a Reveni release as well and now that the Postal strike is over for now it came. It really is lovely and works well on Hasselblad and all of the usual conical screw in mechanical large format shutters that I have :Compound and Copal shutters. Not for Sinar (or Contax SLR or Medium Format for that matter- electromechanical). It does work as a T or B on a Studio shutter with a minimum time of 2-3 seconds. Not for air bulb driven shutters obvs.

[paulbarden]

I just received my Reveni Labs release, and it does NOT fire the No. 5 Universal shutter my 12" f4.5 Ektar is in, nor the Betax shutter my Turner-Reich 12" is in. Those two were specifically ones I was hoping to use this remote release with. I haven't tested it with the Alphax shutter my 8.5" Verito is mounted in - yet.
Nope, it won’t fire the Alphax shutter either. Now I don’t know if I have a use for this device. :-(

Edit: I'm probably not going to keep this, as it doesn't work on the shutters I bought it for. Oh well. I wish Mat had stated in the description that it would not work on many old types large format shutters.

[jk0592]

Mine arrived in Montreal a few days ago. Bought it mostly to take family pictures with a Hasselblad 500cm. Later i will try it on a Nikkor-W 150mm in Copal 0.

[cowanw]

I just received my Reveni Labs release, and it does NOT fire the No. 5 Universal shutter my 12" f4.5 Ektar is in, nor the Betax shutter my Turner-Reich 12" is in. Those two were specifically ones I was hoping to use this remote release with. I haven't tested it with the Alphax shutter my 8.5" Verito is mounted in - yet.
Nope, it won’t fire the Alphax shutter either. Now I don’t know if I have a use for this device. :-(

Edit: I'm probably not going to keep this, as it doesn't work on the shutters I bought it for. Oh well. I wish Mat had stated in the description that it would not work on many old types large format shutters.

That must be devastating to spend that money and end with no use. You made me be more critical of my lenses so I went through them all at each speed etc. and you are basically right. Sorry for my over enthusiastic first post.
The #5 Universal On my 12 " Ektar, 14" Ektar 20" Caltar X2
Two #4 Acme synchro shutters, Two betax #5, a Betax #4, a Betax #3 and three Raptar Alphax
Were unusable with this release. Some fired occasionally( usually on first go?) but most missed on more than 90%, many missed 100%
One Universal #4 worked pretty well, the #4 Acme Synchro Ektar worked well.
On the other hand all of the Copals and Prontors and a small Voltas Auto shutter worked well.
I have only two Compounds, large ones fro 250 and 300 Imagons. They are quite soft to fire and work well.
It seems that the unit does not have enough push to get the older American shutters to fire. They may have enough length as the wire assembly moved, as if absorbing length, while Not Firing.

[paulbarden]

That must be devastating to spend that money and end with no use. You made me be more critical of my lenses so I went through them all at each speed etc. and you are basically right. Sorry for my over enthusiastic first post.
The #5 Universal On my 12 " Ektar, 14" Ektar 20" Caltar X2
Two #4 Acme synchro shutters, Two betax #5, a Betax #4, a Betax #3 and three Raptar Alphax
Were unusable with this release. Some fired occasionally( usually on first go?) but most missed on more than 90%, many missed 100%
One Universal #4 worked pretty well, the #4 Acme Synchro Ektar worked well.
On the other hand all of the Copals and Prontors and a small Voltas Auto shutter worked well.
I have only two Compounds, large ones fro 250 and 300 Imagons. They are quite soft to fire and work well.
It seems that the unit does not have enough push to get the older American shutters to fire. They may have enough length as the wire assembly moved, as if absorbing length, while Not Firing.

I cannot tell if they fail because they don't have enough force to fire the shutter, or because the cable doesn't travel far enough to complete the action. I suspect it's the latter: compared to my best "long throw" release, the Reveni device doesn't travel as far.
Again, I wish Mat had included a statement on the listing that said something to the effect that his device doesn't work with "long throw" shutters. Or whatever. I will probably email him and present my findings and see what he says. Maybe there's a workaround.

[Oren Grad]

Paul, Bill: thanks for sharing your findings. I just emailed Matt with a pointer to this thread.

[reveni-matt]

Oren, Paul, cowanw,

This is a case of me not knowing what I don't know. I don't have any experience with these big old lenses, all my LF glass is relatively modern. I've sold over 200 of these units and haven't had this complaint come back so I guess not many people are using these types of lenses. Maximum mechanical force is around 1.2kg.

For solutions, I only have one idea. Insert a steel rod similar in diameter to the cable release pin, 1.5mm or so. Length will depend but if you insert that into the shutter's release hole so that it sits in there and can be pressed upon by the pin in the motorized cable release, this will make up for the extra travel length needed. I think this may work but I don't have a way to test it myself.

In this picture, the extra steel pin is red, release end is green.

255798

Another note, the more the release cable is bent, the more length and force is wasted going around the curves. Keeping the bends to a minimum will help maximize length. If it won't fire when held so the cable is in a straight line to the shutter, then there's an issue with length. If the cable starts to contort a bit as the pressure is applied, but still doesn't fire, then the force required to trigger is too high even in ideal conditions.

I will add a note to the product page that older shutters requiring "long throw" releases won't work.

If you're dissatisfied, I'm more than happy to take them back and give you refunds, just send me an email. Depending on where you are, I can arrange a return label.

[paulbarden]

Oren, Paul, cowanw,

This is a case of me not knowing what I don't know. I don't have any experience with these big old lenses, all my LF glass is relatively modern. I've sold over 200 of these units and haven't had this complaint come back so I guess not many people are using these types of lenses. Maximum mechanical force is around 1.2kg.

For solutions, I only have one idea. Insert a steel rod similar in diameter to the cable release pin, 1.5mm or so. Length will depend but if you insert that into the shutter's release hole so that it sits in there and can be pressed upon by the pin in the motorized cable release, this will make up for the extra travel length needed. I think this may work but I don't have a way to test it myself.

In this picture, the extra steel pin is red, release end is green.

255798

Another note, the more the release cable is bent, the more length and force is wasted going around the curves. Keeping the bends to a minimum will help maximize length. If it won't fire when held so the cable is in a straight line to the shutter, then there's an issue with length. If the cable starts to contort a bit as the pressure is applied, but still doesn't fire, then the force required to trigger is too high even in ideal conditions.

I will add a note to the product page that older shutters requiring "long throw" releases won't work.

If you're dissatisfied, I'm more than happy to take them back and give you refunds, just send me an email. Depending on where you are, I can arrange a return label.

Hi Matt, thanks for commenting on this.
So, I did some investigation (something I should have done yesterday) and found that the throw of the Reveni device is actually a bit more than 1/8" longer than my best cable release. So, this is not about insufficient throw of the release, it's the amount of force required to trigger the shutter.

I got out my Alphax, Betax and Universal No. 5 shutters are did another test. I laid out the shutter and Reveni device on a flat surface and aimed the Reveni in an absolutely straight line to the threaded mount of the shutter. As long as the release cable didn't flex too much, it succeeded in tripping the shutter 80% of the time on all three. (Though it failed more often on the Universal, which clearly requires more force) So it appears that this device will work as long as you can keep the cable in a straight line aimed at the shutter. At least that's what my test suggested, but in real world situations, it may be different: to maintain a straight aim at the shutter, the device will have to hang free below the shutter, kept straight by gravity. This isn't going to be ideal, but maybe it'll be okay? I'll see what happens. I'm not liking the idea of allowing the Revenue device to dangle off the camera, held only by the cable release threads...

Reveni cable on the left:255799

[reveni-matt]

Hi Paul,

The prescribed solution may still help, as it will help the cable bear down quicker and waste less length on taking up the slack in the tube.

If not, unfortunately I don't have a way to improve the power delivered by the motor except to order a motor with a higher gear ratio gearbox. This would mean slower triggering time as it will take longer for the motor to actuate, but it will deliver more force with a better gear reduction. It would need to come back to be reprogrammed as well because the extension is done by force detection as well as a timer.

Something to try; take your manual cable release and press it slowly against the platten on a food scale, observing the measured weight as you press it down, and note the weight when the shutter fires. This will tell you how much force it takes to trigger the shutter + return spring force on the cable. Test the cable separately to find the return spring force only. This will tell us how close we are to the amount of force needed.

[cowanw]

I tried with a small pin extension and it did fire (on an Alphax) but it did not allow the shutter to return to Zero and be able to be recocked. FYI

[reveni-matt]

I tried with a small pin extension and it did fire (on an Alphax) but it did not allow the shutter to return to Zero and be able to be recocked. FYI

Thanks. I've put warnings about the known incompatible shutters in the product description.

If you want a refund, send me an email matt @ reveni-labs.com and we can sort out a return.

[paulbarden]

Thanks. I've put warnings about the known incompatible shutters in the product description.

If you want a refund, send me an email matt @ reveni-labs.com and we can sort out a return.

Hi Matt,
So, I did another test this morning and mounted the Universal No. 5 to the Deardorff, and screwed in the Reveni cable release. The device just hung freely from the shutter, suspended. (The shutter is oriented to allow the cable to be in a perfect straight line) The Reveni device fired the shutter 3 times out of 4, which IO regard as a success. I'd prefer not to have to work in this way, with the Revenue device hanging on by its threads (no pun intended) but it looks like it will work, at least under controlled conditions.

Similar tests with the Alphax shutter (for my 8.5" Verito) produced similar results, but working more like 5 out of 6 tries. The Betax shutter with my 12" Turner-Reich lens also fired 3 times out of 4 when the Reveni device was allowed to hang below the shutter, the cable in a straight line. None of this is optimal, but I can work with it, I think.

Thanks Matt. I don't intend to return the device, since it looks like I will still be able to use it for what I want.

[reveni-matt]

Hi Matt,
So, I did another test this morning and mounted the Universal No. 5 to the Deardorff, and screwed in the Reveni cable release. The device just hung freely from the shutter, suspended. (The shutter is oriented to allow the cable to be in a perfect straight line) The Reveni device fired the shutter 3 times out of 4, which IO regard as a success. I'd prefer not to have to work in this way, with the Revenue device hanging on by its threads (no pun intended) but it looks like it will work, at least under controlled conditions.

Similar tests with the Alphax shutter (for my 8.5" Verito) produced similar results, but working more like 5 out of 6 tries. The Betax shutter with my 12" Turner-Reich lens also fired 3 times out of 4 when the Reveni device was allowed to hang below the shutter, the cable in a straight line. None of this is optimal, but I can work with it, I think.

Thanks Matt. I don't intend to return the device, since it looks like I will still be able to use it for what I want.

Hi Paul, if you're happy, I'm happy. I've still updated the product listing to say that it is not compatible with these shutters, since it doesn't work with 100% consistency in this configuration.

- Matt

[paulbarden]

Hi Paul, if you're happy, I'm happy. I've still updated the product listing to say that it is not compatible with these shutters, since it doesn't work with 100% consistency in this configuration.

- Matt

Yes, I think it's fair to let people know it may not work for their needs. I expect 99% of the people buying it are using it on medium format and 35mm cameras, where it will work without issue. It's a very cool device, Matt!

[reveni-matt]

Yes, I think it's fair to let people know it may not work for their needs. I expect 99% of the people buying it are using it on medium format and 35mm cameras, where it will work without issue. It's a very cool device, Matt!

Much appreciated.

[cowanw]

Thinking more broadly I wonder if a longer release would cause any problems with shorter throw shutters. Using a handheld release one generally stops the throw once the shutter has fired. Mechanical shutter releases carry on to the end of the throw. Can this injure short throw shutters?
If reveni-matt decides to trial a longer throw shutter release I would be happy to trial it.

[reveni-matt]

Thinking more broadly I wonder if a longer release would cause any problems with shorter throw shutters. Using a handheld release one generally stops the throw once the shutter has fired. Mechanical shutter releases carry on to the end of the throw. Can this injure short throw shutters?
If reveni-matt decides to trial a longer throw shutter release I would be happy to trial it.


There are a few things;

1. The force is limited to 1.2kg, relatively low even for plastic threads.
2. Cameras should be designed so that if the user presses the shutter cable too hard (they can press harder than 1.2kg pretty easily) there shouldn't be damage.
3. The cable will flex itself as it binds up internally due to the forces, limiting the total force.
4. Extension is on a timer, it doesn't keep trying forever to make the cable go down. The timer is such that if there is not enough resistance to slow the action, it will nearly reach the end of the throw before shutting off. If there is sufficient resistance to slow or stall the motor, it will time out without reaching the end of travel.

I haven't been able to break any of my stuff using it, and I tried. Some really craptastic plastic toy camera might appreciate it less but I suspect they'll all be okay.

[Mick Fagan]

Well, as the instigator of this thread, and looking for a manual unit, I have now received my electronic unit from Canada.

Being delivered to Australia it obviously took a little longer than most deliveries, plus the postal systems of the world are rather busy at this time of the year. Funnily enough, I received an email asking me what I thought of the Reveni unit this morning, but it hadn't arrived and with the delivery status being, "Parcel out for Final kilometre Carrier Delivery". I just had a laugh.

Nonetheless, it arrived today, December the 24th.

It works!

By that I mean it works on everything that I wish to use it. I was worried about one lens and one 35mm camera model. The lens is my Komura T400 in a Copal 3, with the shutter cable release hole in an awkward place, the 35mm camera are my Nikon F3's and whether or not the Reveni unit could use the hot-shoe flash unit coupler without interfering with the big prism.

In both instances it worked a treat. With the unit on the F3 the cable is forming a circle, but as the F3 shutter release is very light, it works perfectly. More importantly, with the motor drive attached, I can now run the F3 remotely with automatic winding after reversing the cable.

Some pictures.

Nikon F3. / Komura T400, / Fujinon f/5.6 65mm mounted on a recessed board. The packaging (cardboard) which surrounded the Reveni unit which was then placed in a cardboard box. Impressive packaging for both safety and the planet.

The hardest lens I had with regarding inserting the thread into the cable release socket, was my Fujinon f/8 90mm. It runs a Seiko shutter, but a near identical Seiko shutter is in my Fujinon f/6.3 150mm lens and there was no issue at all.

255834255835255836255837

[reveni-matt]

Hi Mick,

Glad to hear you like it so far.

[munz6869]

Marvellous Mick!

Next time I run into you we could make a stereo remote triggered 4x5 photo…

All the best, Marc

[jk0592]

I've tested mine on the Hasselblad 500CM, and it works perfectly. Next test will be with 4x5 with Copal0, in a week or two.

[Mick Fagan]

Marvellous Mick!

Next time I run into you we could make a stereo remote triggered 4x5 photo…

All the best, Marc

Sounds like a good idea, but the practicalities of viewing could be interesting, not to mention the possible shift required to get our individual lenses close enough to get the correct perspective. But why let a mere technical detail get in the way of having some fun.

https://www.berezin.com/3d/Hyperview.htm

[Nigel Smith]

here I was hoping it would get misdirected to my house :)

[Mick Fagan]

here I was hoping it would get misdirected to my house :)

Dreaming mate, just dreaming! :D

After using it for a product type of shoot, where I was able to hold a diffuser over the product with both hands and then trigger the shutter by pressing the little button on the remote unit being held in one hand, I'm totally hooked.

[Mick Fagan]

Well a little bit of an update, it hasn't really been necessary for me to use my Reveni shutter release, as in reality there was always a way to use a normal cable release with a bit of fiddling, until a couple of weeks ago that is.

I was walking back from taking a picture in a small town and glanced downstream as I walked over a suspension bridge. There I saw a scene I just needed to photograph for posterity.

After setting everything up I had one issue, with me standing on the suspension bridge I couldn't get the bridge to stop swaying ever so slightly. As I was using a ¼ of a second exposure, any movement was going to be detrimental. So I pulled my remote shutter release unit out, fitted it, walked to the side of the bridge, and when I could see no discernible movement I squeezed the remote; worked a treat.

HZX45-IIA
Fujinon f/6.3 150mm
FP4+ ¼ at f/22
D76 1:1


259972

[Nigel Smith]

Nice Mick! good thing you remembered you had it.