Buying Shanghai GP3 8x10

[landstrykere]

I could not find a reseller of Shanghai GP3 in 8x10 by now. I went to their site yesterday and it was listing only 4x5 and 7x17.
I asked about 8x10 in the on-site chatbox (left a message). Some hours after I received an email with a link. A 8x10 choice had been added on their site, listing only 6 boxes of 25 sheets available. I bought one. By now 4 are shown.

https://shop.shjcfilm.com/collections/b-w-slide-film/products/shanghai-gp3-100-8x10-sheet-film

[ethics_gradient]

Haha, I was just going to order some 4x5 yesterday and had given up on the 8x10 after searching everywhere a while back, was surprised to see it on the site. i must have been the other box that sold!

The lack of availability generally is kinda of worrying, hope they're still making film.

[paulbarden]

Better to invest in Foma's films, IMO.

[landstrykere]

well well well, I receive an email:

Your order has been canceled
Order #1628 was canceled because we did not have enough stock to fulfill your order
Removed Items
Shanghai GP3 100 Black and White Negative Film 8X10 Sheet Film × 1
25 Sheets
Refunded


(I asked about manufacturing of sheet film when I ordered but have not get an answer)

[ethics_gradient]

well well well, I receive an email:

Your order has been canceled
Order #1628 was canceled because we did not have enough stock to fulfill your order
Removed Items
Shanghai GP3 100 Black and White Negative Film 8X10 Sheet Film × 1
25 Sheets
Refunded


(I asked about manufacturing of sheet film when I ordered but have not get an answer)

Interesting! My order is marked as completed and waiting to be picked up by the shipper. I was also ordering 4 boxes of 4x5 (me and a local mate).

[ethics_gradient]

Update: was starting to get a little concerned on the second day it was marked "out for delivery" on the Chinese tracking site, but it turned up a few minutes ago. Both the 8x10 (1 box) and 4x5 (4 boxes) are all there.

Still showing 5 boxes available on their site...

[Mark Sawyer]

I noticed the description says "Can be processed / handled in deep red safelight". Is this just an orthochromatic graphic arts film?

[ethics_gradient]

I noticed the description says "Can be processed / handled in deep red safelight". Is this just an orthochromatic graphic arts film?

No, it's a regular b&w film; might be a mistake they carried over from a paper stock or something.

[John Layton]

B+H...quick and reliable...just sayin'! :rolleyes:

[Andrew O'Neill]

Or you could grab some CatLABS 80, which I believe is GP3. I use both, and they have the same characteristics, including reciprocity, characteristic curves, and green, pre-wash colour.

[landstrykere]

I received this very late answer to my question:

Hi, Our sheet film stock is currently is running out, we dont have next manufacture schedule yet.

[MCB18]

In regards to Andrew’s post (I guess I did the quote wrong, oops):

Is GP3 Aviphot 80 now? Interesting, I thought it was still ORWO UN54.

[landstrykere]

In regards to Andrew’s post (I guess I did the quote wrong, oops):

Is GP3 Aviphot 80 now? Interesting, I thought it was still ORWO UN54.

no idea in sheets, but the GP3 i have in 120 is certainly not Aviphot. It is more like an ORWO or an older Kodak. From a diversity of places I did understand that a Shanghai factory was manufacturing Kodak Plus-X until the mid 2010's. The factory, belonging a chinese group recentered around medical and technical film and the consumer GP3 brand went to a shop, that was making business with InovisCoat, as InovisCoat was outsourcing manufacturing. At this point the guy back current Shanghai GP3 shop was selling as you mention an ORWO (as Inoviscoat) emulsion . But then there was COVID time. There is a coating facility somewhere in China, there is the brand GP3 by a shop and reseller, there are the German emulsions, and there are investors somewhere...

Repackagers and resellers in the so-called "film revival" business are a pain. They all want to do business on their own brand by reselling stock or production from few others who actually manufacture film, but without explaining what is what. Catlabs, Rollei (Maco), Shanghai, Svema. And the small brands with their own emulsions but relying on others for coating: Adox, Bergger.

[MCB18]

no idea in sheets, but the GP3 i have in 120 is certainly not Aviphot. It is more like an ORWO or an older Kodak. From a diversity of places I did understand that a Shanghai factory was manufacturing Kodak Plus-X until the mid 2010's. The factory, belonging a chinese group recentered around medical and technical film and the consumer GP3 brand went to a shop, that was making business with InovisCoat, as InovisCoat was outsourcing manufacturing. At this point the guy back current Shanghai GP3 shop was selling as you mention an ORWO (as Inoviscoat) emulsion . But then there was COVID time. There is a coating facility somewhere in China, there is the brand GP3 by a shop and reseller, there are the German emulsions, and there are investors somewhere...

Repackagers and resellers in the so-called "film revival" business are a pain. They all want to do business on their own brand by reselling stock or production from few others who actually manufacture film, but without explaining what is what. Catlabs, Rollei (Maco), Shanghai, Svema. And the small brands with their own emulsions but relying on others for coating: Adox, Bergger.

Yeah repackaged film can be a real pain. Especially when CatLabs and CineStill say that they aren’t selling existing emulsions… it’s a clear lie, everyone who knows anything about film knows it, but the press eats it up. Hell even Jamerastore did it for Santa Rae 1000, which we now know was Tasma 42L almost certainly bought through Astrum.

As far as my thoughts on it, I have mixed feelings. I do not like it when companies outright lie about doing it. However I do understand that there may be reasons they cannot disclose where they get their film. I personally do my best to inform folks I sell film to what they are getting. I know that the Foto series of films from Astrum is probably Aviphot, and although I wish they would say what films they use for the different Foto emulations, I do have pretty good guesses, although except for FN-64 (which I have pretty conclusive evidence is just Aviphot 80), I can’t confirm. They have told me there is a cold storage room with lots of stockpiled Tasma film though, so anything Tasma they sell is probably the real deal.

All that being said, I don’t mind so much because they offer film at a good price without needing to commit to a 520m section of master roll (this is the minimum order for all formats Agfa can produce). They are also extremely flexible in terms of formats they offer, which cannot be said of many places. And at least for me, results have been very good using times on MDC (with some adjustments). The way they do things is certainly better than CatLabs or JCH who have said their stuff is new, and with CatLabs at least, insisted that they spent years on R&D… but it’s just Aviphot… I actually have an agfa sales rep telling me CatLabs is Aviphot in an email lol.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Finally got around to shooting some of this I bought years ago. Kind of nice in packaging with a sheet of tissue between every sheet of film (helps avoid problem of two sheets sticking together and trying to jump into the same film holder at the same time). Results were better than expected. However, seems like this ain't around anymore and doesn't seem to be kicking the tires for 5X7 anyway, so I'm redirecting my "budget" film to Foma 200 which as a T-film should have reasonably decent reciprocity.... one can only hope.

[dave_whatever]

....so I'm redirecting my "budget" film to Foma 200 which as a T-film should have reasonably decent reciprocity....

Yeah you'd think that but it's got fairly terrible reciprocity failure, and hard info on correction factors is hard to come by (not helped by the fact the speed isn't 200 to begin with either). Sorry!

[landstrykere]

the Foto series of films from Astrum is probably Aviphot, and although I wish they would say what films they use for the different Foto emulations, I do have pretty good guesses, although except for FN-64 (which I have pretty conclusive evidence is just Aviphot 80), I can’t confirm. They have told me there is a cold storage room with lots of stockpiled Tasma film though, so anything Tasma they sell is probably the real deal.

I bought 120/220 (60mm) Foto-100 bulk by the meter and 13x18 sheets from them in 2022. They were evasive when I asked about the film. Point is that in spring 2022 Shostka district was already experiencing power outages, not good for running chemicals and coating lines. I wired the money to a private person in Kiev but the parcel was tagged from Shostka post office. The film I received was either a former iteration of Aviphot or of Tasma. So I concluded they had master rolls in Shostka and the cutting/splitters machines in the section of the former SVEMA factory that they could salvage.
It seems ASTRUM guys tried hard to relaunch, while keeping doing business reselling. It is quite something that SVEMA was dismantled but TASMA was restructured and prospered. Anyway, some months ago I read ASTRUM stating they would sell a BW KODAK emulsion in 35mm, but I have not checked recently. Their Telegram channel is gone, they are on Instagram but I don't use that network.
For sure they will not do anything more in Shostka, because the town (and district) is under evacuation (https://shostka.info/shostkanews/evakuatsiya-z-shostky-vagon-do-kyyeva-kursuye-shhop-yatnytsi-ta-shhonedili/).


I don’t mind so much because they offer film at a good price without needing to commit to a 520m section of master roll (this is the minimum order for all formats Agfa can produce). They are also extremely flexible in terms of formats they offer, which cannot be said of many places. And at least for me, results have been very good using times on MDC (with some adjustments). The way they do things is certainly better than CatLabs or JCH who have said their stuff is new, and with CatLabs at least, insisted that they spent years on R&D… but it’s just Aviphot… I actually have an agfa sales rep telling me CatLabs is Aviphot in an email lol.

yes the willingness of ASTRUM to cut film in any format was much appreciable.

Catlabs I guess is useful as a hub to bring film to American public that otherwise has no clues. As an European I natively speak couple languages, communicate in couple others and am used since ever to navigate through whatever country/language around. By themselves Americans will never think that there may be film manufactured in Czechia for instance nor where it is on a map. So it Catlabs buys big volumes of FOMA and resell it, very nice for FOMA.

for me the annoying point with opaque resellers is the time spend finding developers recipes. They typically provide couples ones but not all available on known compilations like Massive Dev Chart.


even Jamerastore did it for Santa Rae 1000, which we now know was Tasma 42L almost certainly bought through Astrum
or directly in Sankt-Peterburg... Kamerastore didn't realize the ridicule when they finally told what was Santa Rae 1000:
We’ve been selling Santa black & white film for a while now as our in-house film, but it’s always had a secret. Until recently it was a secret we were proud of, but recent events have changed our perspective. This film stock was not available worldwide and we found a way to make it for you all. We bought bulk film and spooled it by hand, making over 10,000 rolls over the course of the Santa production run. All of that is coming to an end, though. The truth is that Santa film is made from a Russian air surveillance film. This film is still produced, available, and profitable for us as a business, but we won’t be making any more until there is regime change in Russia. (https://kamerastore.com/en-no/pages/film-for-peace)

so they had a "secret", and they were proud of reselling repackaged TASMA-42L that is available just over the border (now closed). What they were doing is what is being done since ever on russian market:
https://www.ozon.ru/product/fotoplenka-ch-b-airworks-tasma-42l-400-36-kadrov-peremotka-1615189932/
and it was profitable for them. They were telling that they lied to their customers by selling a staple film, nothing in-house nor mysterious, by playing on ignorance among much of the public in Western Europe, and making business out of it. Nice.

[Vaughan]

Yeah you'd think that but it's got fairly terrible reciprocity failure, and hard info on correction factors is hard to come by (not helped by the fact the speed isn't 200 to begin with either). Sorry!

I found a reciprocity formula for Fomapan 200 and made a chart. It's untested, but I made a similar chart for Fomapan 100 and its results have been tested and confirmed good for metered exposures to 8 seconds (60 seconds corrected exposure).

254647

[Drew Wiley]

We've known about Foma films here in the US for decades. The 200 product was first distributed here under the name "Classic 200" - and yeah, it's nowhere near true 200 speed, and its long exposure recip characteristic are indeed terrible. Cat Labs is a minor newcomer to film sales. What I really miss, however, are Hungarian Forte products. They had a true 200 film first imported under the Lotus brand, then as Bergger 200.

[dave_whatever]

I found a reciprocity formula for Fomapan 200 and made a chart. It's untested, but I made a similar chart for Fomapan 100 and its results have been tested and confirmed good for metered exposures to 8 seconds (60 seconds corrected exposure).

254647

Thanks for this! Cheers

[landstrykere]

What I really miss, however, are Hungarian Forte products. They had a true 200 film first imported under the Lotus brand, then as Bergger 200.

Fortepan 200. Still seen sometimes mostly in 35mm.

Probably you know the guy who founded Bergger was the former chemist and technical boss at long lived (since ~1850/60's) Guilleminot company, that closed down early or mid 90's. The chemist decided to keep going in the niche of fine art photography, with focus on papers. He had his recipes but no manufacturing facility, and at some time, he went to Hungary among other countries. Aged, he sold Bergger to a shop of photographic stuff, Labo-Argentique.
Papers may still be manufactured at the former Forte facility. Older films under the brand may have been OEM from whoever (Efke, FOMA) and for sure Forte sometime. Recent Pancro 400 is their, but was coated by InovisCoat.
InovisCoat troubles means ADOX and Bergger have lost their coating provider. ADOX communicates clearly: they plan to do their own coating in a facility with a former trial machine scrapped from ... ILFORD, in Switzerland (?). I don't get the Switzer point, it doesn't help with costs. ADOX seems dedicated and honest, so we'll see. Otherwise we have ILFORD and FOMA. In USA KODAK, but I read that it is now in the hands of a "private equity firm" I don't know what that is but the company's name feels very bad: Kingswood Capital Management.

[landstrykere]

I found a reciprocity formula for Fomapan 200 and made a chart. It's untested, but I made a similar chart for Fomapan 100 and its results have been tested and confirmed good for metered exposures to 8 seconds (60 seconds corrected exposure).

254647

it seems the one I have, I don´t recall where I found it. I made a small card with thick laminating plastic, have it in my bag.254674

[Vaughan]

Exposure is exponential not linear. A linear list of numbers from 1 to 30 is not very useful, it's only 5 stops. There is another chart floating around the inter webs for Shanghai GP3 that goes from 1 to 100 seconds: that's even less useful. Despite having three times as many rows it's got less than 2 stops more data.

The table I posted goes from indicated exposures of 1 second to 480 seconds (8 minutes) in full stop increments with third stop intermediate values. This matches up with commonly available light meters like Gossen.

The numbers in both charts are very similar: for 30 seconds indicated your chart gives 418 seconds = 6m58s corrected exposure, my chart gives 6m11s. That difference of 47 seconds seems like a lot but it's actually less than 1/3 stop and would not be noticeable in practice. (Hence the futility in listing corrections for every second when the exposures get long.)

[Vaughan]

In the spirit of the original topic, a reciprocity chart for Shanghai GP3 100.

254676

[MCB18]

Fortepan 200. Still seen sometimes mostly in 35mm.

Probably you know the guy who founded Bergger was the former chemist and technical boss at long lived (since ~1850/60's) Guilleminot company, that closed down early or mid 90's. The chemist decided to keep going in the niche of fine art photography, with focus on papers. He had his recipes but no manufacturing facility, and at some time, he went to Hungary among other countries. Aged, he sold Bergger to a shop of photographic stuff, Labo-Argentique.
Papers may still be manufactured at the former Forte facility. Older films under the brand may have been OEM from whoever (Efke, FOMA) and for sure Forte sometime. Recent Pancro 400 is their, but was coated by InovisCoat.
InovisCoat troubles means ADOX and Bergger have lost their coating provider. ADOX communicates clearly: they plan to do their own coating in a facility with a former trial machine scrapped from ... ILFORD, in Switzerland (?). I don't get the Switzer point, it doesn't help with costs. ADOX seems dedicated and honest, so we'll see. Otherwise we have ILFORD and FOMA. In USA KODAK, but I read that it is now in the hands of a "private equity firm" I don't know what that is but the company's name feels very bad: Kingswood Capital Management.

Ehhh… I don’t have much faith in ADOX, I have been told by someone (who for obvious reasons, as you will see, wishes to stay anonymous) that has worked, maybe still works, with ADOX that there are major issues in terms of company management. TL: DR is, they aren’t being truthful in regards to a lot of things. Which is unfortunate, as there seems to be some actually decent R&D chemists there. The most notable things they’ve said as of a couple months ago:

“Unfortunately I don’t have any information I am able to share about Helios, other than it is taking longer than my superiors have expected. This is unfortunately typical, they make many promises they cannot deliver and say things that are sometimes false.”
“We are still working on Helios, however we have not gotten the film yet.”
“No we cannot coat the film. We must use an outside company that I cannot name. We only get the large rolls and package them.”
“There is a lot of confusion and conflict, which leads to unfortunate situations where things do not get done because of people not agreeing how to do it. Some large opportunities were lost from this.”

I wish I could ask for more details, but they only talk occasionally in the group I share with them due to them again, trying not to say so much that they might reveal who they are and get in trouble with ADOX.

It might be worthwhile making a thread regarding repackaging film/the status of manufacturing if folks want to discuss this further