Fiber print washing -- emulsion flecks at edges

[Ulophot]

I'm wondering why I've been seeing flecks of the emulsion coming off edges my prints, particularly noticeable at black edges of contact proofs. It may just be a summer issue, when my darkroom is about 72 F and water runs 75-77, but I'm not sure.

After a 30-second citric acid stop, I use TF-5 fixer. After 40 seconds in Fix 1, the print is rinsed with a hose and then added to my wash tub, a restaurant bussing tub with holes drilled at two levels to allow maintaining between 1.75 and 2+ gal of water with flow rates of zero to more than 1/2 gal/min. Water flow is periodic. Some prints may stay there for a couple of hours or so in a print session before Fix 2, followed by a rinse, a 5-minute wash, 10 minutes in sodium sulfite wash-aid, then a 3-minute and then three 5-minute washes using dump-and-fill fresh water for each, and running somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 gal/min.

I checked Ansel A. The Print just now, and he was, back then, recommending a hardening fix for the first bath only. I don't know if a hardener can be added to TF-5 or whether just this contradicts its "easy-wash" properties.

Any insights?

[Sal Santamaura]

Foma?

[jnantz]

I've had emulsion flaking off the edges of ilford paper for over a decade. I contacted and showed images of the problem to an ilford tech back in the day, said it was something like an artifact from cutting the paper to whatever size it was off of the master roll. it was suggested that I print on a larger sheet and trim the flaked part off.. if you put hardener in the fix you will have troubles extracting all of the fixer and other chemistry out of your print when you wash them, and you will increase your chances of scratching your prints with the corner of another image
|added later|
my routine was as recommended by ilford and perma wash fixing times as recommended by clip test, 2 mins dev, water fix (2 baths split) running water trickle in a holy tray rinse until I got 9prints (3 negatives). perma wash 5 mins, wash 5 mins carefully shuffling back to back, filling and dumping in a 8x10 smooth bottom tray. all water 68F. no other paper I have used since 1980 has flaked off like ilford fb mg does. it's a nice paper but im not a fan of the waste the tech suggested. if I was rich and I could contact print every 4x5 on a 5x7 sheet that would be great, but im not rich and I don't appreciate the waste.

OP. hope you get it sorted and don't have to resort to excessive waste.

[Pieter]

The prints are in the water way too long.

[Michael R]

The prints are in the water way too long.

+1 especially at elevated temperatures.

[MartyNL]

It definitely seems a very intensive print washing regime. I also don't believe that modern materials need such rigorous cycles.

However, if this is a recent phenomenon I can understand the curiosity.

[Doremus Scudder]

Philip,

With lots of wet time, higher temperatures and prints rubbing around against each other in a tub, you can expect some frilling and flaking of emulsion on the print edges. A slot washer would help eliminate the abrasion and limiting wet time to a minimum will help.

I have this happen too with lots of wet time, but don't worry about it. I always print with borders which then get trimmed off before the print is mounted. I don't worry about it for contact proofs; they're not going to be seen by anyone but me.

If you display your borders, then taking some measures to eliminate the problem would be in order. Hardener would be a last resort for me. Just keeping wet time to a minimum and avoiding physical damage will go a long way.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

You're overthinking things and making an ordeal out of a simple procedure. You don't need any wash aid or hardener, or second fix unless you've overused your initial fix bath. TF5 is an archival fixer which AA never knew about. His remarks in The Print don't pertain to it; its own instructions do. After the stop bath, give the print a little longer time in TF-5, like 2 min, then into a holding tray of plain water until you have enough prints to wash them all together, preferably separated in a gentle slot washer for half an hour, or up to an hour at most. Use a milder water temp. 75F is getting up there in the risk zone.

Expect to trim prints.

[Ulophot]

Thanks, all. My prints are always bordered, so the image area is unaffected. One time I tried not using wash aid with TF-5, since the instructions say 15 minutes' washing is adequate. I think I tried 15 minutes total with three complete changes of water; I don't recall. My residual hypo test yielded stains and I never tried again.

A slot washer was a dream long ago, but I never had the money, and doubt if I could find it now; in my (limited) more recent looking, they appear for sale rarely, at hundreds of dollars, not usually the 11x14 size I would need, and -- Murphy's Law -- usually across the continent somewhere and I have no cousins in Oregon. It may have been David Vestal in days of yore who, when these first started becoming popular, made one with a plastic waste basket and monofilament for 8x10s... In any case, I don't think one is in the proverbial cards for me.

I'm open to further suggestions on my workflow. When I was working professionally, things ran pretty smoothly; I never had all the problems I've experienced after my return seven years ago. I used somewhat different chemistry, including Heico's wash-aid for their much shorter aid and final wash times. I heard a number of experienced voices here doubting it, so I switched to Doremus's recipe and 10 minutes.

The water time and temp are left. There's nothing I can do to lower running water temp in summer. I suppose I can fill a graduate with cold water and add some periodically to the tub. I don't know how I can reduce the sitting time of prints in water. I have a 5-ft Delta sink with a center drain. Three 8x10 trays plus my wash tub take up most of the length; three 11x14s plus the tub barely squeeze in. I dry my prints on screens over one end of the sink after clean-up; it's the only place I have. Therefore, I have no practical way to print for, say, an hour and a half, second-fix the prints, wash them, start them drying, and return to printing.

That's if 1.5 hours were typical for printing, which it isn't. I spend a lot of time evaluating prints in the process. I'm not a great composer and slow to refine at that, so, even after careful examination of contact proofs, trial croppings, etc., getting to a print I'm happy with from a given negative can take two hours from the first enlarged proof, which I file for reference. I was probably faster when I was photographing every few days.

[jk0592]

If you want a variation of workflow, here is what I would do.
First thing, I would keep the wash tray, without water, outside your sink. It is big, and prevents you from having a regular workflow.
Then, you would add 2 trays same size as developing tray if they fit. One is for your second fix bath, the other for HCA. If they do not fit, use a single fix regime, so as to keep HCA in your sink.

After 10 min in HCA, rinse print carefully with water hose, drain water, and put the paper to rest in your big wash tray, making sure the print does not stick with other prints. After your enlarging session, empty your 4 or 5 trays, and put them away. Then put your big wash tray in your sink and proceed to wash.

[Doremus Scudder]

Philip,

I'm going to disagree with Drew above on a point or two. First, a wash aid is always beneficial with fiber-base papers and will shorten wash time (which is what you are after) and ensure a better wash.

Generally speaking, fixer is fixer, and the active ingredient in TF-5 is ammonium thiosulfate, just like all other rapid fixers. Yes, there are advantages to the alkaline pH; faster wash times generally and better storage lifespan, but much depends on how you use your fixer.

As far as one-bath versus two-bath regimes go, it all depends on your desired level of permanence and convenience versus economy. A one-bath regime works just fine, but the fixer capacity is smaller. Ron Mowrey (aka Photo Engineer) used a one-bath regime, as does Drew, apparently. With your low throughput, you may want to consider it too. Just be aware, that if you want to fix to "optimum-permanence" standards, capacity will be around 10 8x10-inch prints per liter. You can get up to 40 if you settle for a lower level of permanence. With a two-bath regime, the capacity is effectively doubled, but you need the extra tray or a separate fixing/toning session. A two-bath fixing regime also helps ensure good fixing; since the second bath stays relatively fresh, by-products don't build up there, enabling the fixing process to go to completion. The danger with single-bath regimes is that it's easy to overuse the fixer if you're not keeping good track of throughput.

You may want to look for a Paterson 12x16 print washer. These are around both new and used. I have two, which I've modified a bit, but they work fine once you get the agitation plunger operating well (they can be finicky). I don't think one of these would break the bank.

So, some practical suggestions for your problem:

1. Just continue as you are now and trim your borders. If the flaking an the edges isn't an issue for mounted display prints, then maybe this is the easiest.

2. Try to limit wet time by one of the following methods:
A. Just streamline what you are already doing by getting prints to the wash more quickly and by keeping wash time to the minimum necessary for adequate washing.
B. Adopt Ilford's "Optimum-permanence Sequence," where you use stronger fixer, one-bath, for a very short time followed by a five-minute water rinse, 10 minutes in wash aid and then a final wash of up to 20 minutes if you tone. Check out the Ilford website here: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/
C. Divide your workflow into printing and toning sessions like I do. Develop, stop and a slightly-extended fix one followed by a 30-minute wash and then dry. comprise the printing session. Collect prints till you have enough for a toning session (I like to be able to fill my print washer a couple of times, so 24 prints is the minimum for me). Water soak, fix 2, toner, rinse (in a running-water tray), wash-aid and then a final 30-minute wash and dry makes up the toning session. This way, you're dividing wet time into two parts, drying the prints between, which prevents a lot of emulsion swelling. Plus, you're able to print in small batches and then live with prints for a while before deciding which are keepers and worthy of toning.

A note about Ilford's optimum-permanence sequence. The rinse between fix and wash aid and the longer treatment in wash aid are essential parts of the process. Without those, there is a risk of underwashing. You've got the testing down, so testing washing should be easy.

Hope this helps somewhat,

Doremus

[Ulophot]

I am truly grateful always for the helpful and experienced advice I get here.

As stated above, I have no way to cool the running water in the summer; I can only use a still bath and add chilled water. I have no place for trays outside the sink.

Doremus, I do use your single-fix session and 2nd fix/toning session sometimes, but it doesn't always work out with what I have to do, so I go through first fix, clean up the other trays, and set up fix 2, toner, and a weak post-toner HCA as a rinse. After that, pre-wash, HCA, final wash.

My washing sequence is quite close to the Ilford optimum, by design. The main problem appears to be temp and then water-sitting time, which is not so long for final prints as for the first prints of the session. I rarely print more than four or five finals, so the last would be out of fix 1 not more than 15 minutes, usually, after the first. Of course, if I have bleaching to do, that's another matter, though I just watched a video on a different approach to that, which I may get around to trying (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-UjdSfclx4).

Fortunately, the weather is cooling down a bit here. I have a small exhibit to start printing in a couple of weeks.

[Drew Wiley]

Back to my own method : I do a limited number of prints per session, typically 6 @ 16X20 inch keepers, plus test strips and one or two non-keepers. A liter of 1:3 one-shot usage TF4 is ample for this purpose. No need for a second stop bath. Yes, the fixer cost is somewhat higher doing it this way, and throwing it out at the end of each daily session; but time is valuable too. I live in a coastal area with enough moisture that I don't need to do any outside plant or lawn watering, so don't feel guilty about standardizing on one hour wash times. My slot washers are my own design and quite conservative in their water usage, and more effective in certain other ways than commercial designs. But you can go with simple trays if you change the water enough times. An old Kodak tray siphon might help with the initial part of that; but it's mainly a matter of the hypo diffusing out through soaking.

In terms of bleaching, I just use Farmers Reducer, and then a brief refresher of fixer afterwards, then into the washer. Since Kodak stopped making Farmer's, I now buy it from Photog Formulary. You prepare A & B liquid solutions in advance, but only mix together enough A&B for a brief period. Their instructions lead to an awfully strong formula, so you'll need to dilute it considerably more than they suggest if you want subtle control. I place the print, still wet from a holding water tray, on the semi-vertical glass squeegee board at the end of the sink, then squeegee off the suplus water. Then, with a brush in one hand and a running little hose in the other, I keep a little stream running right below the area I'm bleaching, so that none of the rest of the image gets affected. I can't image doing this with the print lying flat.

[Ulophot]

Thanks, Drew.

I've been obliged by exceptionally rising water rates to economize on water where possible, so I do use multiple changes of water rather than relying on high flow rates. Since I have only trays (my wash tub is, effectively, a tray), it means a lot of standing there shuffling prints. As Doremus pointed out to someone here a couple of years ago, the fixer needs somewhere (fresh water) into which to diffuse; a stack of prints in a still bath doesn't necessarily offer that.

Perhaps you watched the bleaching video I linked. I have been using the method you describe, but as master-bleacher Bruce Barnbaum notes, one needs to periodically check progress by putting the print back in the fix again. What interested me about Matthew's method in the video is the full "rinse" (several changes of water) and the highly dilute solution on a squeegeed horizontal print, which, he said, bleaches slowly enough that there is no change to even bleached delicate highlights in a final fix after all bleaching is done. And he has not experienced staining, either.

[Doremus Scudder]

... so I go through first fix, clean up the other trays, and set up fix 2, toner, and a weak post-toner HCA as a rinse. After that, pre-wash, HCA, final wash. ...

Philip,

You can probably eliminate the weak HCA rinse before the pre-wash if you want to save some time (and maybe water). The main thing with a pre-wash before the HCA treatment in the Ilford regime is to get the surface fixer and some of the fix in the emulsion out, the long HCA treatment both bonds with the remaining fixer in the paper and prepares the emulsion for more efficient washing, which then happens in the final wash. Your weak HCA rinse isn't hurting anything, but is not really needed.

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

... In terms of bleaching, I just use Farmers Reducer, and then a brief refresher of fixer afterwards, then into the washer. Since Kodak stopped making Farmer's, I now buy it from Photog Formulary. You prepare A & B liquid solutions in advance, but only mix together enough A&B for a brief period. Their instructions lead to an awfully strong formula, so you'll need to dilute it considerably more than they suggest if you want subtle control. I place the print, still wet from a holding water tray, on the semi-vertical glass squeegee board at the end of the sink, then squeegee off the surplus water. Then, with a brush in one hand and a running little hose in the other, I keep a little stream running right below the area I'm bleaching, so that none of the rest of the image gets affected. I can't image doing this with the print lying flat.

I do exactly this, but use a rehalogenating bleach of potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. I have stock solutions of both on hand and mix just what I need before use. The advantage of the rehalogenating bleach is that it is somewhat reversible. If I go a bit too far, a dip back into the print developer often saves the day.

I do find that extensive bleaching can cause the print to split-tone, so try to avoid that and tone lightly prints that have been bleached. I wonder if Farmer's Reducer has that problem, Drew?

Best,

Doremus

[Ulophot]

Well, a will and a way. Until I can set up something better, at least this gets my prints out of the water sooner and lets me keep printing.

Doremus, with a half-hour wash after Fix 1, do you then rinse your drying screens? I try to be scrupulous about contamination. I have sponging my screens with a 10% bleach solution and then rinse, every 4-6 months, depending on how much printing I do. But that's with full washing.

253554

(My enlarger is out of frame to the left of the paper cutter.)

[Pieter]

Well, a will and a way. Until I can set up something better, at least this gets my prints out of the water sooner and lets me keep printing.

Doremus, with a half-hour wash after Fix 1, do you then rinse your drying screens? I try to be scrupulous about contamination. I have sponging my screens with a 10% bleach solution and then rinse, every 4-6 months, depending on how much printing I do. But that's with full washing.

253554

(My enlarger is out of frame to the left of the paper cutter.)

I would think that if the prints are thoroughly washed, there would not be any residual fixer to be deposited on your drying screens. If there is, your prints have not been completely washed.

[Doremus Scudder]

Philip,

Pieter beat me to it. Prints should be thoroughly washed after fix one. Thirty minutes is a minimum, I use longer most of the time. You're trying to reduce wet time, so at least the minimum. That should prevent contamination of your screens.

Best,

Doremus

[Ulophot]

When scientists said years ago that an archival wash left trace amounts of fix in the print to its benefit, and HE-1 was effectively "banned", it seemed reasonable to assume that, over time, trace amounts of fix could accumulate on screens. Fred Picker was the one who recommended a bleach-solution rinse every once in a while. Seemed like a smart idea.

I mentioned in some other thread that I had tested once after 15 minutes of washing, a time indicated by TF-5's instructions as fully adequate, and had gotten stains. Since I don't (yet) have a vertical washer, I have to shuffle prints along with fill & dump in my washing tub. Since a half-hour had been indicated by Doremus, above, as a wash after the first fix, I was inferring that it was a decent temporary but not complete wash. Photographer's Formulary cautions that its own residual hypo test may not meet archival standards. I don't worry myself about that, as long as I get no stains.

I'll have to do some more testing to ascertain how long I'll need. I have come to feel, after the past several years, that if I never test anything again, it will be too soon.

Thanks, and cheers.