A Question About Shutters

[AidanAvery]

Hi, all. I have been looking at some lenses in older compur, synchro-compur, and other shutters recently. As a potential buyer, a problem that I am often running into is that the shutter lags at slower settings. 1 second might be closer to 1.5 or 2 seconds. A half second might be closer to a full second. Etc.

As someone who has never before purchase an older shutter, how much should this dissuade me from buying a given lens? Is a problem like this indicative of the shutter being inaccurate across all speeds? Or are shutters of this age so frequently experiencing a problem like this that I should go ahead and purchase regardless?

I'm a bit lost here. I've passed on a few lenses I was excited about because the speeds were perceptibly slower than they should have been.

Thanks.

[Dan Fromm]

Shutters can be overhauled. Shutters can be tested for consistent speeds.

[AidanAvery]

Yes. Typically the scenario is this: I am buying from an online seller who is willing to send me a video of the shutter firing at one or two speeds. But they may not have the knowhow (or the time) to do any actual testing before I purchase. I'd prefer not to have to send the shutter off for overhauling, but I guess that may just be how it goes with shutters this old. I'd rather buy something that I won't need to immediately send away for a few months though.

[j.e.simmons]

I just expect shutters to be inaccurate and figure on a CLA when considering price.

[AidanAvery]

John, where do you typically send old shutters for a CLA and how long is the typical turnaround?

[Mark Sampson]

It's worth noting that since no new shutters are being made, it's a good idea to maintain the ones we have.
I am embarrassed to say that I have two LF lenses/shutters that need service- although they are ones I rarely use (which is one reason they need it).
That said, clockwork shutters are common and (relatively) simple devices, and any camera repair shop should be able to service them. There are several threads here about repair services; the common attitude is that "no one does this anymore", followed by a list of shops that offer such services. So a search here might help you find one. Here are some not-quite recommendations;

Carol Flutot has a fine reputation among forum members.
Forum member "Whir-Click" repairs Wollensak (aka Graphex) shutters, at alphaxbetax.com.
Nippon Photo Clinic in New York is very competent, although I've only sent them Nikon gear.
Camera Doctor NYC will get my Speed Graphic, once I decide to spend the money.
Zack's in Rhode Island is a sponsor over on Photrio.
A friend has mentioned Tempe Camera Repair (although I'm not familiar with them).

Perhaps other forum members will add their own recommendations.

[paulbarden]

It's worth noting that since no new shutters are being made, it's a good idea to maintain the ones we have.

This is really the most important consideration. It's not like there are alternatives to buying used shutters. There are certain assumptions you should make when buying a shutter, and high on that list is the assumption that it will require servicing.

[AidanAvery]

Thank you, Mark. This is really helpful. While I have you, is it easy to swap shutters? If I get a lens with a malfunctioning synchro-compur shutter, for example, is it relatively easy to find another shutter that I can swap it for on my own? Forgive my ignorance on the subject of shutters. Still learning!

[Dan Fromm]

Thank you, Mark. This is really helpful. While I have you, is it easy to swap shutters? If I get a lens with a malfunctioning synchro-compur shutter, for example, is it relatively easy to find another shutter that I can swap it for on my own? Forgive my ignorance on the subject of shutters. Still learning!

In my experience, not as easy as I'd like. As j.e.simmons wrote in post #4 above, always plan on having a newly received shutter overhauled. "Newly received" includes replacements. Since that's the case, having a shutter overhauled is usually less expensive than replacing it with one that functions well.

Swapping cells from one shutter to another made to the same standard is easy. Standards? There are several. Compur/Prontor/Copal but within the brands there are exceptions. For other type, like for like.

[reddesert]

Although servicing shutters is good, to directly address the question: A shutter that drags at 1/2 or 1 second is not a sign of un-usability or imminent failure. Most clockwork shutters with a full range of speeds have two mechanisms, for timing the fast (usually 1/30 and faster) and slow speeds. It's relatively common for the slow speeds to get a little draggy due to decades of tiny little bits of congealed dust and lube or whatever. A shutter like that may have fast speeds that are fairly accurate, slow speeds between 1/4 and 1/15 that are a little slow, and 1/2 and 1 sec that are way too slow or stick open. Such a shutter needs to be cleaned for best results, but you can use it as long as you're mindful of what the speeds actually are.

[j.e.simmons]

I'd second Mark's list for repair. First, I'd test and see what speeds the shutter gives you and if the speeds are consistent. It might be good enough as is. I don't think any of my shutters are accurate across their range = even the CLAed ones. For instance, if 1/100 gives you a consistent 1/80 just adjust with the aperture.

[Mark Sampson]

A few more thoughts-
1) There are many more camera repair shops than I listed. I'm no expert on this subject; I've had little repair work done in the last decade, and the 'map' is not static.
2) Interchanging shutters is a workable idea IF you have the same type of shutter to replace an unrepairable one. Lens shutter sizes are/were no more standardized than bicycle parts used to be... or 35mm camera lens mounts. And adapters can be made, but often cost more than the lens itself.
3) Few of us are shooting color transparency film any more (where exposure is the most critical). Most b/w and color neg films can tolerate a bit more exposure (from a slightly slower shutter) than the actual marked speed. Can't prove that one but it seems logical enough. As mentioned above, consistency is good.
4) Millions of successful photographs have been made using shutters of questionable precision even when new (Ilex No. 5, I'm looking at you). I think there are still evaluations of some shutter design on the SK Grimes site (which fine company no longer repairs shutters btw).
5) Lee Walker at Monument Camera likely has a shutter speed tester. A useful tool... for finding both actual speeds and consistency.
6) I, at least, am in this for the long haul. A lens I like is worth the workaround or the cost of service. So don't worry, if you find that rare lens with a sticky shutter, grab it and make pictures with it however you can. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

[LabRat]

You wouldn't drive a classic car without a complete fluid change, adjustments, mechanical check etc, and you are going to shoot a shutter in a variety of conditions (cold/hot/damp/dry etc) and shutter will have been sitting since new and last used by you when???

A shutter overhaul is much cheaper than your last car repair, and should be reliable for decades properly done...

Steve K

[peter brooks]

You may well start to suffer from GAS (many of us do) and accumulate more and more lenses and their associated shutters. It may not be possible (or economical) to have all of them serviced, and, as Mark points out above, even when new some speeds marked were the very definition of optimism (yes, I've got an Ilex No. 5 too... :) ).

If you're at all handy it's very easy to make a simple shutter tester. I found this design somewhere on the internet in 2008, it's very simple to make and install in a small box. With today's 'maker' culture it's easy to find the components, and 5V powered laser units (butcher a USB cable) and mounts are available. Using a pen pointer was a bit clunky.

The free program Audacity works great for analysing the 'open time' of the shutter, and is available for most common platforms.

I keep a spreadsheet of the actual speeds for all my old shutters, and just carry a cropped printout (although I do tend to trust very late shutters like the Copals on Nikkor-M and SW - it's not a problem if they are slightly out for B&W).

Here's an image of the original shutter tester PDF:

250086

[AidanAvery]

Thanks, Mark and everyone. The responses to this thread have been really helpful and changing my mindset. You're right, I wouldn't look for a vintage car in "new" condition, and that should probably not be the case here either.

I think I'll go ahead and buy one of the old lens/shutters I've been looking at, take it to Lee to test, and then send it out for a CLA if necessary. Mark, thank you for the list of those who service shutters.


A few more thoughts-

4) Millions of successful photographs have been made using shutters of questionable precision even when new (Ilex No. 5, I'm looking at you). I think there are still evaluations of some shutter design on the SK Grimes site (which fine company no longer repairs shutters btw).

This is an especially helpful reminder. Thanks, Mark.

[Doremus Scudder]

There are pretty good shutter-speed tester apps for smart phones. The bare-bones version runs on sound input, but often there is an add-on photo sensor that makes them even more accurate. These are good for all but the fastest shutter speeds (which hardly get used at all with LF cameras - I don't think I've ever made an LF exposure at a higher shutter speed than 1/125; maybe not even that).

I second Carol Flutot and Co. for their excellent work. Usually, you contact them and let them know what you have and what work it needs. Then they will contact you when they are ready for you to send in the shutter so that turn-around time is quicker.

When you have your shutter serviced, ask for a list of the average actual shutter speed for each of the settings. These will come back to you in milliseconds, which you have to convert to fractions to use. Somewhere here or over on Photrio I have posted my chart of shutter speeds in milliseconds to fractions of a second to the nearest 1/3 stop.

I make a sticker with the actual shutter speeds at each setting of all my shutters (older shutters speeds can be very consistent, even if they don't match the setting speed). I mark them in plus or minus 1/3-stops from the marked setting (e.g., 1/60+ would be 1/3 stop different than 1/60). Then I can easily compensate with the aperture.

It's really nice to have a freshly-serviced shutter.

Best,

Doremus

[Jim Andrada]

+1 for Carol Flutot. She's done several CLA's for me.