How Critical is Wash Temperature?

[Bob Kerner]

I just DIY-d a MF film washer using some PVC tubing. Surprisingly easy but while testing it in my basement slop sink I realized that while the cold water is crystal clear, the hot water is pretty cloudy. I have an older home so, who knows, there may be some sediment in the pipes. The slop sink is the only faucet in the house that is threaded to accept a fitting to run a hose to the washer. So the best I can do is cold water for the wash cycle. Wondering if that will be detrimental.

Water temp is 62-63 F > 17-C

I went down this rabbit hole because I've noticed some spots on my sheet film developed in the Stearman tank and the advice was to wash outside the tank. I don't get the same spots on my MF film in a Patterson tank; I built the MF washer as a test-build to see how hard it would be. The rest of my work is done in the kitchen (less dust than basement) using filtered tap water that's usually 1 degree within 20-C. The kitchen faucet is one of those fancy-pants spray heads; no way to connect a hose. Adding filtration to the slop sink is not a viable option.


Maybe I'm missing something......or over-thinking.

I found some 4x5 washers on the auction site but don't want to spend the $$ if water temp is going to be a problem.

[nolindan]

I try for a wash temperature of ~75F. The warmer the water the faster the wash, within limits. Warm wash water has been said/rumored to increase grain. Very warm water may loosen or flush away the emulsion.

I've noticed that if the water is too cold the last of the purple TMax dye won't wash away.

If it were me, I would probably extend wash times 50% at ~60F. Contrary to some popular wisdom, I use HCA with film - it really helps get the purple out and I don't have to worry too much about wash times. For sheet film I wash in a tray with water changes. For roll film I have a plastic washing thingy I place under a gently running tap.

[xkaes]

That temperature is not a big problem, but if you are trying to reduce water use, use a "hypo-clear". Some "hot" water appears cloudy, but when allowed to cool down, the cloudiness is gone. Try that -- you may not have an issue there. And there are EZ tests to see if all the fixer has been removed. There's no need to waste water, time, or money.

And I'd really try to get some sort of filter for washing film. There are many options that are inexpensive and will even work with a garden hose connection. An easy, but last resort, option is a final rinse in distilled water.

[Tin Can]

Please STOP using obsolete

JARGON!

[Doremus Scudder]

A couple of things:

You want to avoid temperature-shocking your film. Try to keep the wash water reasonably close to the processing temperature; + or - 2°C at least. Otherwise, you risk reticulation (not such a problem with modern hardened emulsions) or "micro-reticulation," which appears as increased grain.

Washing at 60°F will take a long time and may not be complete. It would be better to bring a bucket of filtered, tempered water to your processing area and use that for fill-and-dump washing of your film.

Getting an in-line water filter for your wash-water feed shouldn't be hard. I've had several over the years that filter down to 5 microns. Do a search at your favorite online photo supplier.

If you are not using a staining developer, Hypo Clearing Agent (not jargon, rather a Kodak name for its wash aid) or other similar wash aid will speed up wash time and reduce the amount of water you use (making the bucket option easier).

If you have any concerns about your water quality, use a distilled water and wetting agent (e.g., Photo Flo) final rinse for several minutes, i.e., longer than the recommended time, in order to let minerals leach out and thereby prevent deposits on your film when it dries.

Best,

Doremus

[Mick Fagan]

I have the original Stearman tank, so it's had somewhere around 6 years of usage.

I've been washing my negatives exclusively in the tank since new, never once thought of putting the film in a specialised film washing apparatus.

Washing without running water is easy, a 1 litre kettle (or saucepan) of hot water then mix with tap water to around 23ºC as I use 23/24ºC for film developing. I need approximately 3 litres of water for washing over a 5 minute wash period. The Stearman takes around 465ml of water to cover the film, combined with a slow continuous inversion regime of ever lengthening wash periods, 30 seconds for the first wash, 1 minute for the second wash, and so on.

After the washing is over, I remove the film and using a 5x7" paper tray, I soak in a wetting agent for 30 seconds then hang up to dry.

An easy removal of the film from the film holders, is to have some water in a dish/tray, place the loaded and developed film, still in the holder onto the water, then removal of the top sheet is as easy as anything. Immediately after removing the first sheet, turn the film holder over so the remaining film is on the top. It only remains there until I have finished the wetting bath of the first sheet.

[Vaughn]

Kodak Hypo Clear is designed to help clean film in cold water (in the 50s), so that would be useful to use. The cloudiness in the hot water is just air bubbles, so may not be much of a concern. You can fill up a beaker of hot water and use it once the bubbles leave. For washing I prefer to rinse and fill, aggitate a couple times over 5 minutes, dump the water out, and repeat a few times.

[Tin Can]

My college had a big lovely DR

ALL water came direct from Lake Michigan

The lake freezes sometimes

The big rotary community wash tank was always very cold

Students often forgot their soggy prints

That ruined the prints

RC was banned as crap

only FIBER allowed in masters DR

I wish I could go back in time

[Jim Jones]

One way to provide quantities of water at an appropriate temperature for film processing is to store it in a space that is maintained near the desired temperature. For several decades my darkroom was an 8x12 section of an otherwise unused chicken house. Insulation, cheap paneling, a space heater, and an air conditioner made it clean and comfortable throughout the year. Running water from a well was available just outside the building. I bought distilled water for mixing chemicals and for the final film wash. Discarded 5 gallon jugs from a previous workplace provided generous amounts of water stored at room temperature. Photography in the boondocks can be enhanced by freedom from urban restraints!

[xkaes]

Photography in the boondocks can be enhanced by freedom from urban restraints!

AKA, "Dump it in the creek"

[Bob Kerner]

I have the original Stearman tank, so it's had somewhere around 6 years of usage.

I've been washing my negatives exclusively in the tank since new, never once thought of putting the film in a specialised film washing apparatus.

Washing without running water is easy, a 1 litre kettle (or saucepan) of hot water then mix with tap water to around 23ºC as I use 23/24ºC for film developing. I need approximately 3 litres of water for washing over a 5 minute wash period. The Stearman takes around 465ml of water to cover the film, combined with a slow continuous inversion regime of ever lengthening wash periods, 30 seconds for the first wash, 1 minute for the second wash, and so on.

After the washing is over, I remove the film and using a 5x7" paper tray, I soak in a wetting agent for 30 seconds then hang up to dry.

An easy removal of the film from the film holders, is to have some water in a dish/tray, place the loaded and developed film, still in the holder onto the water, then removal of the top sheet is as easy as anything. Immediately after removing the first sheet, turn the film holder over so the remaining film is on the top. It only remains there until I have finished the wetting bath of the first sheet.

This sounds like a longer version of the Ilford method. Fill tank. Invert 5 times, dump, the 10x, then 20x then drop of wetting agent. Remove and hang. I have been using distilled water for the last two steps. Never a problem in the Patterson tank with 6x6 reels but noticed marks on the last batch from the Stearman. I have to go back and look at other runs’ negatives. Maybe it was just a fluke but all 6 had a line of dots that more or less align with the plastic on the film holders.

[Tin Can]

All water in my DR is

Filtered and 68 F

Waste water is filtered by coal mine

[Mal Paso]

AKA, "Dump it in the creek"

That's Rude! Insult first, check facts later?

[Mick Fagan]

Hmmm, using a wetting agent in the film tanks......

Is it possible that there has been a very slight build up of material on the film holders due to using a wetting agent in the tank?

Perhaps a thorough clean of the film holders, under the tabs and/or anything else that restrains the sheets of film, may fix the issue. As I understand it, the tank worked correctly, but after some usage, the issue appeared.

[Bob Kerner]

Hmmm, using a wetting agent in the film tanks......

Is it possible that there has been a very slight build up of material on the film holders due to using a wetting agent in the tank?

Perhaps a thorough clean of the film holders, under the tabs and/or anything else that restrains the sheets of film, may fix the issue. As I understand it, the tank worked correctly, but after some usage, the issue appeared.

Thought of that. Everything gets a thorough wash and scrub after each session.

[Mick Fagan]

Any chance of seeing a picture of an affected negative?

With a close look at the faults in the negative(s) it may trigger something in one of our collective brains.

[Mal Paso]

If you are processing B&W 68 degree wash is perfect, a few degrees off processing temp is fine. Really cold wash may cause grain clumping.

Color should have a tempered wash.

Doesn't sound like a temperature issue. Kodak stainless hangers would leave hyper agitation marks on film if you weren't careful.

[jnantz]

That's Rude! Insult first, check facts later?

Hi Mal Paso

that's what some folks do .. I remember watching Sunday Morning with Charles Kuralt in IDK 1991, when I was stranded in a motel for a few days
because of a blizzard .. they did a long format Sunday morning story on a photographer who lived off the beaten path, in a rural area. he was just known by his neighbors as "the picture making guy" ...
he didn't wash his glass plates in the sink with running water, instead he put them in the creek behind his house. Getting back to the OP's question .. the creek was cold ;). the picture making guy made some of the most beautiful mundane images of where he lived .. I wish I could buy a collection of his work ...

[xkaes]

Something tells me that's not the only thing "the picture making guy" put in the creek. Let's just hope he didn't have any apprentices.

[Mal Paso]

Hi Mal Paso

that's what some folks do .. I remember watching Sunday Morning with Charles Kuralt in IDK 1991, when I was stranded in a motel for a few days
because of a blizzard .. they did a long format Sunday morning story on a photographer who lived off the beaten path, in a rural area. he was just known by his neighbors as "the picture making guy" ...
he didn't wash his glass plates in the sink with running water, instead he put them in the creek behind his house. Getting back to the OP's question .. the creek was cold ;). the picture making guy made some of the most beautiful mundane images of where he lived .. I wish I could buy a collection of his work ...

City folk must stay up nights imagining what people do in the country. I've lived in the forest almost 40 years and never dumped anything in a creek. Environmentholes are like nuns, everything they fail to understand is a Sin. Decades after lead bullets were banned Condor lead poisoning is still going UP. Someone finally posted a photo of Condors eating Lead Paint off an old Forestry Fire Watchtower. Like the Romans, they think it tastes good. Has anything been done to clean up those toxic sites? Probably not as everyone "knows" the cause is bullets and anyone who says different isn't "sensitive". I live here because I love the environment and I think that's the reason most live in the country.
This guy stopped by for a visit and posed for pictures for almost 2 hours a month ago.
250104

[jnantz]

Something tells me that's not the only thing "the picture making guy" put in the creek. Let's just hope he didn't have any apprentices.

maybe? he was kind of old, his photography was superb


City folk must stay up nights imagining what people do in the country. I've lived in the forest almost 40 years and never dumped anything in a creek. Environmentholes are like nuns, everything they fail to understand is a Sin. Decades after lead bullets were banned Condor lead poisoning is still going UP. Someone finally posted a photo of Condors eating Lead Paint off an old Forestry Fire Watchtower. Like the Romans, they think it tastes good. Has anything been done to clean up those toxic sites? Probably not as everyone "knows" the cause is bullets and anyone who says different isn't "sensitive". I live here because I love the environment and I think that's the reason most live in the country.
This guy stopped by for a visit and posed for pictures for almost 2 hours a month ago.
250104

not sure about that, that's as much of a generalization is you commented on. in the nearly 40 years I've been selling silver recovery stuff I've heard and seen and read some interesting tidbits about what people believe to be true and what they do in rural, suburban and urban areas .. a person who lived 20 mins away from me advocated dumping KCn in his yard because it came from the earth and was harmless, he also suggested he'd dump LBs of photochemistry ( HQ, Elon, dichromates, KCn and others ) in a hole on his backyard cause he was moving. not sure if he did, but I told him he was an a$$hole for even suggesting he'd do that .
when I lived in a city I watched some machine shop employee dump a trash can full of green fluid down a street drain ..

[xkaes]

You're right, there are people that are ignorant of the consequences of what they are doing, everywhere -- and there are also people that are well-aware of the consequences of what they are doing, everywhere, but just don't care.

[monochromeFan]

You're right, there are people that are ignorant of the consequences of what they are doing, everywhere -- and there are also people that are well-aware of the consequences of what they are doing, everywhere, but just don't care.

The thing is, the people who DO know, are never punished for it. But the little kid who pours a cup of film developer down the camp ground sink... gets a really big fine.

[Tin Can]

I guess some did not hand drill for water near the Boundary Waters in the 1950's

and hand dig a 2 hole outhouse

build a cabin with only a fireplace

Wood heats twice, once by double ended hand saw

Second in fireplace

in MN winter

then we made a sand beach

turtles ate my fish

skated on the lake and we three sons beat each other with hockey sticks

saints are fables

[xkaes]

The thing is, the people who DO know, are never punished for it. But the little kid who pours a cup of film developer down the camp ground sink... gets a really big fine.

I've seen plenty of jerks get caught. Around here, the big thing is dumping old tires on the side of the road -- when & where they THINK no one is watching. With the ubiquitous video cameras nowadays, more idiots are being nabbed.

[jnantz]

The thing is, the people who DO know, are never punished for it. But the little kid who pours a cup of film developer down the camp ground sink... gets a really big fine.

little kids don't get a fine for making mistakes. depending on the chemistry, there is very little problem with putting developer + stop, in the drain in most places, it's mostly the pH they worry about for that and fixer was recently demoted at the federal level from being one kind waste to just "waste" ... in some rural areas there's already naturally occurring silver and other stuffs in the water, and the Ag from a little spent fixer probably doesn't even match / come close to what might already be there. silver has antibacterial / antibiotic qualities, and probably since they are mostly low level conscientious users of fixer, it's really not tilting the scales much. much of the fixer issue has to do with giant polluters like Eastman Kodak and high volume photo finishers, electroplaters, textile and other manufacturers, not hobby photographers who use 1 shot fix.

that's a different situation than the knucklehead/s I mentioned .. those things they advocated doing what they were doing wasn't very good.

[monochromeFan]

little kids don't get a fine for making mistakes. depending on the chemistry, there is very little problem with putting developer + stop, in the drain in most places, it's mostly the pH they worry about for that and fixer was recently demoted at the federal level from being one kind waste to just "waste" ... in some rural areas there's already naturally occurring silver and other stuffs in the water, and the Ag from a little spent fixer probably doesn't even match / come close to what might already be there. silver has antibacterial / antibiotic qualities, and probably since they are mostly low level conscientious users of fixer, it's really not tilting the scales much. much of the fixer issue has to do with giant polluters like Eastman Kodak and high volume photo finishers, electroplaters, textile and other manufacturers, not hobby photographers who use 1 shot fix.

that's a different situation than the knucklehead/s I mentioned .. those things they advocated doing what they were doing wasn't very good.

I personally know of alot of "shuold have known but didnt give a shit" people. Not worth getting too far into but, there was a professional painter a few miles down the road. he lived there for 25 years before the bank foreclosed. The new owners were suprised to find almost a hundrend 50 gallon drums of unknown chemicals in the back.

[jnantz]

I personally know of alot of "shuold have known but didnt give a shit" people. Not worth getting too far into but, there was a professional painter a few miles down the road. he lived there for 25 years before the bank foreclosed. The new owners were suprised to find almost a hundrend 50 gallon drums of unknown chemicals in the back.

there's a photographer who owns what was lighthouse lab in Australia, Stephen Frizza ( I believe he's still processing Kodachrome for people using his own methods and madness ) .. a dozen or so years ago he posted on ape-hug that he found large quantities of Uranium at a Church and he wanted to use it for toner and he was asking for info regarding the substance ..
people find all sorts of substances lying around. in college my roommate and I had a rug purchase at a local "good stuff cheep" (building 19 ) and the tag said "made of 100% unknown manmade materials"
sometimes it worked as a night light too ..

[Tin Can]

Was there a famous artist

that washed prints in the ocean

?

[jnantz]

Was there a famous artist

that washed prints in the ocean

?

Talbot FIXED his calotypes and salt prints in salt water before Hershel learned him about HYPO.

[Tin Can]

Happy

[Drew Wiley]

Wash water temp is nowhere near as crucial as development temp. You don't want it warm enough to weaken or frill the paper emulsion, nor cool enough to not work efficiently. I wouldn't go above 75F, or below 65F.

And yeah, people in the country can seemingly get away with certain things. ... Like putting a well 15 feet away downslope from the outhouse. ... Or more commonly on subdivided plots, having a well right across the fence from a neighbor's septic field. Seen it all. My favorite was an old marginally literate classmate who decided to double his income by turning his septic service truck into a dual-use residential water hauling truck. The health department came down hard on him when a local mini-epidemic broke out. Dumping chemicals in streams doesn't work so well either if Fish & Game finds out; that's about the only thing that efficiently shuts down illegal pot grows anymore.

[Mick Fagan]

Ilford (Harman) themselves put out their Ilford FP4+ technical paper for processing that film. Their other films have a similar technical paper.

In that paper on page 4 of 6, they mention various processing temperatures, dependent upon the machinery being used, those temperatures range from 24ºC through to 26ºC with developing times dropping as the temperature rises. I know from a past life that we ran FP4 and later on FP4+ at 30ºC through a roller transport machine without a problem.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1919/product/688/

As for B&W paper developer temperature, for around the last 15 or so years I have been processing Ilford and Kentmere RC B&W paper in my Durst Printo roller transport paper processor around the 30ºC mark with nary an issue. In fact Ilford suggest a temperature range for their B&W papers between 20ºC to 30ºC with times given for up to 40ºC processing temperatures. Essentially the higher the temperature the quicker the developing time.

My Durst Printo which was designed for RA4 colour paper processing, which I used it for, in my first 15-20 years of ownership, has a 45 second developing bath, so I needed to up the temperature to get full B&W paper development. 30ºC was the suggest maximum and according to the Ilford Paper Processing Technical PDF, page 4 of 6, full development is within 22 seconds. As the processing bath gets used up, having a bit of insurance by shortening developing time, I have approximately one complete stop of developing time up my sleeve.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1826/product/1706/

[Drew Wiley]

Are you talking about roll film? I know that original FP4 sheet film had a rather fragile surface. They even interleafed the sheets with thin paper for extra protection. Even the current FP4+ is capable of edge frilling at 75F. Lots of films have trouble at that temp. And RC papers, whether color or b&w, are distinctly different from fiber-based products in that respect.

[monochromeFan]

The main thing is not to have a huge temperature imbalance occure during the processing of the film. All the chemicals and washes should be within the developers temp range.


Thats why i kind of like rodinal, as long as you have the ability to mix it into water, it will work.

But room temp is pretty much a good general fact.

At work, i am in a factory, there are a few guys who randomly wear their "safety t shirts" to work. follow the linkage please

https://www.temu.com/ul/kuiper/un9.html?subj=goods-un&_bg_fs=1&_p_jump_id=894&_x_vst_scene=adg&goods_id=601099516582631&sku_id=17592214911170&adg_ctx=a-83d834b9~j-35cac9cf~f-3864b937&_x_ads_sub_channel=shopping&_p_rfs=1&_x_ns_prz_type=-1&_x_gmc_catalog=1077885&_x_ns_sku_id=17592214911170&mrk_rec=1&_x_ns_catalog_id=1077885&_x_ads_channel=bing&_x_gmc_account=3429411&_x_ads_creative_id=82601187058798&_x_ns_device=c&_x_ads_account=176148943&_x_ns_match_type=e&_x_ns_msclkid=cf371fe117241fd25a2c79b51495fde0&_x_ads_set=520896083&_x_ns_source=o&_x_ads_id=1321615353423160&msclkid=cf371fe117241fd25a2c79b51495fde0&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BING_ADS%3AC50BC953CF17BBD0EAA834F78784E94E&utm_term=4586200444733921&utm_content=BING_ADS%3A05FE93B78649957D83471B5FF66537D2

[jnantz]

The main thing is not to have a huge temperature imbalance occure during the processing of the film. All the chemicals and washes should be within the developers temp range.


Thats why i kind of like rodinal, as long as you have the ability to mix it into water, it will work.

But room temp is pretty much a good general fact.



the problem with generalizations is they aren't completely true ..
like anything else it is just knowing one's materials and camera and your own ( or taught to you ) methods.
some films ( and papers ) and developers don't care if there are wide margins some do.

tri x in 68F DK50 followed by water (stop) and fix 50F and wash water out of the tap at 45-50 was the routine for a long time, never gave me (or anyone else who worked where I worked (since the 30s/40s? ) ) problems, and a friend used to regularly develop film at 80F and fix/wash at 65 never any issues ... I personally have made it a point to not care, to. me at least none of this stuff matters. the polyvinyl fillers in film these days ( used to stretch emulsions ) are the things to look out for. they probably cause a lot of trouble but by the time people figure it out, well ... it will be too late to hoard for the zombie invasion. manufacturers have adjusted and changed their recipes over the years so something from 10-20+ years ago pristine, no. base fog, perfectly stored might behave completely different than someone hot off the rollers and notched last week .. both exposed and developed the same way. it's like the difference between potato chips with an 7 inch long ingredients list filled with lactose, soy, corn syrup and 5 different gums & al. vs potatoes, salt and oil .. 1 will give you all sorts of illness and certain death, the other is a great side dish when you are enjoying burgers and dogs on the grill, and will probably only kill you if you over indulge .. YMMVFTSOTWATUCL

[Mick Fagan]

Are you talking about roll film? I know that original FP4 sheet film had a rather fragile surface. They even interleafed the sheets with thin paper for extra protection. Even the current FP4+ is capable of edge frilling at 75F. Lots of films have trouble at that temp. And RC papers, whether color or b&w, are distinctly different from fiber-based products in that respect.

Talking about sheet film, as well as roll film.

As Harman give processing temperatures up to 26ºC for their FP4+ film, I wouldn't expect to see wrinkles (frill) on the edge of the film. My personal experience with FP4+ has never shown wrinkling in any shape of form through many different types of roller transport processors, nor in Dip N Dunk, rotary and/or inversion processing in a very wide range of temperatures, but mainly between 24ºC to 27ºC.

I do remember the interleaving with very thin sheets of paper, and, believe it or not, my last (open) box of Ilford Newsdot reprographic film in 30.5 x 45.7cm size, also has very thin paper interleaving between each sheet of film. This film is as tough as hobnail boots, is designed for 30ºC roller transport processing. So while paper interleaving was a thing for continuous tone panchromatic films, it was also for orthochromatic sheet films, with this box purchased around 2013.

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