Removing rusted screws (from an Ansco 8x10)

[pjd]

Does anyone have any ideas about removing badly rusted out screws from wood? I attach two photos of bellows frames from an Ansco 8x10. The bellows needs to be replaced, but all the bellows frame screws are completely rusted. Aside from the bellows frame screws the woodwork is in good condition, although the hide glue has given out in most joints.

If I drill the screws out I don't think it will go well (a hand drill would probably slip off the screw head). I don't have a drill press - and the screws in the back standard would not be accessible using a drill press, the frame would interfere.

I don't expect that easy out / screw extractor tools will work well, but wonder if anyone has tried them in a similar situation? I have a feeling I need to cut the bellows frames out in order to get access to the screws to twist them out with pliers, but even then the screws might snap off and I'll need to replicate the bellows frames. Any ideas would be welcome. I'm in no rush with this.

249488249489

[nolindan]

If it were me I would Dremel the screw heads down to nothing and then pry the wood apart. That should leave a stub of a screw remaining and that I could unscrew with visegrips.

[pjd]

If it were me I would Dremel the screw heads down to nothing and then pry the wood apart. That should leave a stub of a screw remaining and that I could unscrew with visegrips.

That's more or less what I did with an Ansco 5x7 last year, it was difficult to keep the bellows frames intact. I managed it, but the front frame was somewhat weakened in the process. The frames were still good enough for Custom Bellows to work with. I'll take my time with this, the woodwork of the camera is in good condition (with the exception of one missing cosmetic piece). 249512

The missing piece is just held on with glue and the tacks to locate it. I have a strip of cherry wood which I'm going to apply some shellac to, but I'm not confident that I can match the finish very well. If anyone has a parts Ansco and doesn't need that strip of wood that fits on the front standard (with the Ansco badge) let me know if you'd be willing to part with it.

[LabRat]

Had to do this for an Ansco 8X10 + other wood cameras, even flush broken screws... First thing to try is taking a dental pick or heavy sewing needle and scraping out all the rust the best you can... Then place standard on a firm table top where it won't rock and heavy downward pressure can be applied, then take a higher quality well fitting screwdriver, tap handle with a light hammer a few times, then with strong downforce turn screw a little both ways, then evenly try to rotate a little at a time counterclockwise.. The initial seating is a little stuck, but once it's moving, should continue to turn...

Plan B if head breaks (usually still strong enough even rusty) is to dig around the screw head into the wood enough to grab screw body with toothed fine needle nose pliers to start turning it out directly... If head breaks, there is usually enough remaining to grab... (The wood around it can be fixed later by drilling out and inserting a piece of hardwood dowel, gluing, and drilling a new hole through it)... Then paint flat black and install with new screws...

Flat head screws are difficult to torque in tight spots as driver needs to be square on head to avoid slipping, but other heads grip better if driver is at a slight angle (Phillips, hex, torx etc)... Note that holes are shallow and screws too long will start breaking out the other side, so be careful choosing...

And don't forget to mark the orientation on the frame (up) and re-install exactly so holes will line up again...

Good news is screws are not too deep in wood, and originally not too tight, so once moving, they will remove with less effort as they turn...

Not as hard as it looks!!! Good luck!!!

Steve K

[pjd]

Had to do this for an Ansco 8X10 + other wood cameras, even flush broken screws... First thing to try is taking a dental pick or heavy sewing needle and scraping out all the rust the best you can... Then place standard on a firm table top where it won't rock and heavy downward pressure can be applied, then take a higher quality well fitting screwdriver, tap handle with a light hammer a few times, then with strong downforce turn screw a little both ways, then evenly try to rotate a little at a time counterclockwise.. The initial seating is a little stuck, but once it's moving, should continue to turn...

Plan B if head breaks (usually still strong enough even rusty) is to dig around the screw head into the wood enough to grab screw body with toothed fine needle nose pliers to start turning it out directly... If head breaks, there is usually enough remaining to grab... (The wood around it can be fixed later by drilling out and inserting a piece of hardwood dowel, gluing, and drilling a new hole through it)... Then paint flat black and install with new screws...

Flat head screws are difficult to torque in tight spots as driver needs to be square on head to avoid slipping, but other heads grip better if driver is at a slight angle (Phillips, hex, torx etc)... Note that holes are shallow and screws too long will start breaking out the other side, so be careful choosing...

And don't forget to mark the orientation on the frame (up) and re-install exactly so holes will line up again...

Good news is screws are not too deep in wood, and originally not too tight, so once moving, they will remove with less effort as they turn...

Not as hard as it looks!!! Good luck!!!

Steve K

Thank you for your detailed reply, I had not thought of your plan B - this seems an excellent idea. The head of some of the screws has already rusted away so badly that this will be plan A in some cases. I'm moving slowly with this partly as I'm actually in the middle of another camera rebuild right now, but I'll update progress later on.

[maltfalc]

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/milescraft-wood-plug-cutter-set-3-piece/1001676303?eid=PS_GOOGLE_D00_Corporate_GGL_Shopping_All-Products_All%20Products__PRODUCT_GROUP_pla-296303633664&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw88yxBhBWEiwA7cm6paGowFiuffw3ESGgK1oigx1f3jKH5jYSG0muNI1H2UDe2ReeO_G7oRoC0scQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Rosoi Vlad]

You drill a whole into it with quality drill, you use a quality screw extractor -not from china- and you will have a nice empty hole not a mangled mess

[Jim C.]

I'll second what Labrat suggested, one thing thing to point out is that not all flat blade screwdrivers are the same
most are ground with a taper, they don't grip very well and they can cam out and mess up the slot in old rusty slotted screws.
Guess they grind tapers is that no one really uses slotted screws anymore, rather they're used to open paint cans more often ;)

If you're handy you can modify them to be hollow ground, grinding the blade on both sides so that the faces
start parallel, I've done it to a few flat blade screwdrivers I have. Alternately you buy hollow ground screwscrew drivers
from gunsmith suppliers.

[cpa/austin]

I have 3 Ansco 5x7s. Send me a pic of the location of the missing piece.

[pjd]

You drill a whole into it with quality drill, you use a quality screw extractor -not from china- and you will have a nice empty hole not a mangled mess

I'd thought about this, one problem is that I live in Seoul, getting any high quality tools involves big shipping costs in addition to the cost of the tool itself. Likewise for the hollow ground gunscrew drivers, they sound great! But there aren't many gunsmiths around here.

Not all bad news though, I have a couple of camera rebuilds on the go, one of which needed a new leather handle. I tried a shop in the US; they wanted $25 shipping, plus a $5 fee for filling out a customs declaration, at which point I decided to go local. Turned out there's a leather crafts shop 5 minutes up the street from me who made some great looking leather handles at a fair price.

cpa/austin, thanks for your post, I've just sent a PM.

[pjd]

249947

So far I've removed two screws. There are another 6 similar screws to remove from the front frame, and 12 from the rear - plus there are tacks in the rear frame. The screws were rusted in. I was busy with another camera, but even now that I have more time for this Ansco it will be a slow process.

I'm not sure if easy out screw extractors would work, it might be worth a try. The glue joints in the front standard all gave out (including the bellows frame) so I at least have unimpeded access to the screw heads - which I will not have for the rear frame.

[Jody_S]

When I had a similar problem with bellows frames, I simply pried the frames off the wood standards (gently!), leaving the rusted screws in place. If the head of the screw is that rusted, the body tends to also have rust, making this removal a lot easier than expected. I could then tap them out of the bellows frames with a tack hammer, clean up the holes in both the bellows frames and the standards, then I used slivers of mahogany and wood glue in the now-stripped holes in the standards before re-assembling with new screws. Because none of this is visible on the finished camera, I thought I didn't need to get too fancy with removing the screws, and I figured it was more important to keep the bellows frames intact than to try to save the screw holes in the front and rear standards. Worst case, I could always drill new holes beside the old ones.

[pjd]

When I had a similar problem with bellows frames, I simply pried the frames off the wood standards (gently!), leaving the rusted screws in place. If the head of the screw is that rusted, the body tends to also have rust, making this removal a lot easier than expected. I could then tap them out of the bellows frames with a tack hammer, clean up the holes in both the bellows frames and the standards, then I used slivers of mahogany and wood glue in the now-stripped holes in the standards before re-assembling with new screws. Because none of this is visible on the finished camera, I thought I didn't need to get too fancy with removing the screws, and I figured it was more important to keep the bellows frames intact than to try to save the screw holes in the front and rear standards. Worst case, I could always drill new holes beside the old ones.

This post describes some of what I had to do.

The countersunk screws in the front frame were the worst, fortunately the frame itself was quite strong. I gently pried out some of the screws, immediately repairing the enlarged hold left in the front standard. This left the point of the screw showing; in some cases I was able to back the screw out with pliers. Sometimes the screw just snapped, in which case I filed the screw flush to the wood surface and gave it a firm hit with punch and hammer, just enough to get the countersunk head sitting proud - enabling me to twist it out by the head with pliers.

The screws in the rear frame were round head slotted screws of differing lengths (3 types of screw used in the two frames). They were also stuck badly, but some came out with a screwdriver bought specially for the purpose - the screwdriver was fractionally large, but it was easy to work it to a perfect fit with sandpaper. Some of the heads crumbled, so I recut those with the cutting wheel on a Dremel. The Dremel was too large to fit in the frame, at which point I remembered I have a flexible cutting extension, first time I'd used that. I think using the Dremel shook the screws free a bit.

A couple of the screw holes in the front frame became somewhat enlarged, I repaired these by filing a piece of scrap walnut wood I had to hand, placing the dust in the holes then adding some superglue. This is an idea I got from watching Dan Erlewine fixing chips on a rosewood fretboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXIton7x6Q0

The resultant repair is strong and can be sanded flush / have pilot holes re-drilled.

The Ansco rear bellows frame is quite a nicely made item, some french polishing on it. It's now en route to Custom Bellows, thank you to everyone who contributed ideas and encouragement.