View Full Version : Accumulating a large format setup
Possibly a daft question, but here goes.
I've thought on and off for a couple of years about trying large format photography (4x5). If I did, I probably wouldn't buy everything at once, instead gradually picking up the various pieces from auction sites etc., So I've been wondering about the best order for doing that. Mainly whether to get a lens followed by a camera, or a camera followed by a lens. I've mainly looked at cameras so far, but I could see arguments for doing it either way round.
dave_whatever
20-Apr-2024, 02:38
Owning a camera with no lens will just be the most frustrating and infuriating situation IMHO. Like owning a car with no wheels. I'd just save up until you can get a camera, a lens, and a couple of film holders at the same time. Assuming you've already got a decent tripod and head.
I expect you're right. It was probably just something in the way I've dealt with turntables in the past: it's not always better to get the tonearm, cartridge, plinth, and turntable in one shot, especially when buying older gear. I might take a year or more to put it all together. Large format seemed a bit reminiscent of that, compared to SLRs, rangefinders, or TLRs. If it was a first camera, sure I'd be frustrated to have half a kit.
The camera without a lens/shutter can still be used with a make-do Pinhole lens. A piece of mat board with a hole in the middle. Tape Tin Foil over the hole and use a fine needle to make a pin hole in the tin foil. Now you have a pin hole camera. All you need is a film holder or two and you are in business.
Alan Klein
20-Apr-2024, 05:37
I had a similar issue during COvid when I decided to move up to 4x5. But I settled on buying the camera first, a new unit. Then while it was being shipped, I found and bought a "normal" lens at 150mm from a used source as large format lenses are mainly all "old".
I'd suggest reading up some reference materials about large format photography in this forum's reference section. The first section should be helpful: How to get started in large format photography
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/
From experience, I would use your "waiting time" to research lenses. Grab a used copy of "A User's Guide to the View Camera" by Jim Stone or "Using the View Camera" by Steve Simmons and start down the rabbit hole of lens application and choice.
Even though I have used small to medium format cameras for decades, I never really explored how lenses work in Large Format Photography and the last few years have been a real continuing education and an eye-opener.
When you start moving the lens and film focus plane around, things get complex real quick; something I only had a vague awareness of before really studying the issue.
If you jump out and purchase random items and start trying to make them work together, it's more frustrating than not having a camera at all and can get discouraging fast.
Start thinking about what you want to shoot, how you want to shoot it and what limits your budget places upon those wishes.
Good luck!
Thanks. I think it's the fact that it's so modular, if that's the word I want, that is a bit overwhelming at the outset. I'm not an expert photographer, just someone who has enjoyed taking photos since the film days, and still has everything to learn. The good thing is that there seems to be no shortage of LF cameras for sale, at what look like good prices, so I probably don't need to rush there. It might take a while trying to work out the various compatibility issues with backs, holders, lenses, boards, and any other parts I haven't thought of. As I'm in Japan, I'd probably just go with a Japanese make.
Jim Jones
20-Apr-2024, 07:06
The camera without a lens/shutter can still be used with a make-do Pinhole lens. A piece of mat board with a hole in the middle. Tape Tin Foil over the hole and use a fine needle to make a pin hole in the tin foil. Now you have a pin hole camera. All you need is a film holder or two and you are in business.
I've dabbled in pinhole photography for half a century, and don't recommend pinhole photography for someone moving up to large format. True, long ago Ansel Adams devoted a few pages to it in his book The Camera, but that was to simplify his introduction to image forming. There are better introductions to pinhole photography.
Possibly a daft question, but here goes.
I've thought on and off for a couple of years about trying large format photography (4x5). If I did, I probably wouldn't buy everything at once, instead gradually picking up the various pieces from auction sites etc., So I've been wondering about the best order for doing that. Mainly whether to get a lens followed by a camera, or a camera followed by a lens. I've mainly looked at cameras so far, but I could see arguments for doing it either way round.
You don't want a camera without a lens and you don't have to buy some high end folding field camera to get started. You can find very nice used Kodak and Calumet monorail cameras for around $100.
You don't need the finest Schneiderbaster XL 123 for a lens either. Older Kodak Ektars are superb, for example. There are also tons of old Wollensaks and similar lenses that - while not top tier - are a good way to get going.
One of my favorite - and most used - lenses is a 210mm f/6.8 Caltar-IIE. I just saw one on eBay for $150 (offer less, they'll probably take it). This lens is a rebadged Rodenstock and it is tack sharp and contrasty, not to mention small and light.
All in, with a couple of film holders, at least in the US, I'd expect you could get going for about $300-ish.
Conrad . Marvin
20-Apr-2024, 08:35
Tripods are the support system for your large format camera. Sometimes a flimsy one can offset any amount of quality in a lens or camera. Use caution when buying a tripod as many used ones have been replaced because they are badly worn and are in need of repair. Just another thing to consider. Good luck on your journey.
Large format has the unique benefit of about 180 years of different styles of photography. If you like a particular style of photo history, you might want to start with a lens that is compatible with that style or surviving that style. Then get the compatible camera, film holders, etc...
If you are getting LF for a use and haven't developed a style or want to try something new, perhaps get a camera or kit designed for certain use cases... heavy precise monorail camera for the studio, wooden/composite field cameras for landscape, press cameras for more portability, etc...
I wouldn't stress about picking things up piecemeal and cobbling things together .. there really isn't much to get TBH ..
just a biggish tripod to support a bigger camera ( look for Tiltall they are not too expensive, or you can mount a head on a surveyors tripod) you can use a jacket over your head for a dark cloth
or do as I do and go to a fabric store and just get a slice of fabric ( I use a rectangle of felt that is now about 40 years old ) ... if you get film holders that need new hinges get book binder's tape and you'll repair them good as new
as long as you aren't getting some high liner ebony or collector's camera you should be able to pick up a body for not too much money. you'll read things about your first LF camera, it's true for the most part, and won't really be your ideal camera, it will tell you what you don't need or need, depending on your style ( field camera with lesser movements vs studio camera &c ) lenses from the WW2 era were built to last, are often times sleepers, and are every bit as good as newer lenses, just make sure you put some money aside to have it cleaned adjusted lubricated (they may have been home remedied with light fluid and lubricated with tallow, lard or schmaltz ).. if you have a favorite lens you use on small formats (35mm ) multiply by 3 and that is an approximate focal length for 4x5 ... I wouldn't bother with paper negatives or X-ray film as a beginner's media, people might suggest it's a great alternative to film, it might be, but it's tricky seeing its usable grey scale is not the same as film, so you'll get frustrated because of high contrast and blown out images unless you get good at judging light and shooting on overcast days, use a yellow filter &c ..
have fun with your hunting and gathering !
John
BrianShaw
20-Apr-2024, 09:15
Large format has the unique benefit of about 180 years of different styles of photography. If you like a particular style of photo history, you might want to start with a lens that is compatible with that style or surviving that style. Then get the compatible camera, film holders, etc...
If you are getting LF for a use and haven't developed a style or want to try something new, perhaps get a camera or kit designed for certain use cases... heavy precise monorail camera for the studio, wooden/composite field cameras for landscape, press cameras for more portability, etc...
(Quoting @jp so I don't have to repeat what was already written.)
First thing to do is to clarify what you want to do with LF, at least initially. For a quick and inexpensive initial learning experience it might be just as well to get a press camera. Often very affordable and often available as a "complete kit". There are benefits and limitations, of course. If you want more flexibility like extensive movements and "precision" adjustments then the cost and complexity of decisions increase enormously. But there are many Calumet/Cambo monorails onthe market that are affordable and offered as a complete kit. I've seen folks start both ways. Some are quickly frustrated with their initial decision and move to another option once they know what they really want out of a LF camera. Others make an acceptable choice in the first place. (I started with both a press camera and a basic monorail in the 1980's, and still have/use both.) How things work for you might be based mostly on your ability to clairfy your requirements, desirements, and expectations early in the decision process.
Bob Kerner
20-Apr-2024, 09:34
Lots of good advice. I’ve done the 4x5 journey twice now in the past 15 years. First time I ordered a new, handcrafted wood 4x5, waited many months. Bought new glass at a store in NYC that was still carrying LF lenses. Spent a lot of money at the time. Then life got in the way, digital was more affordable and I sold it all at a loss. Miss the glass and accessories; the camera that I waited months for started to have issues with knobs coming unglued—-don’t miss that at all!
Fast forward to about a year ago and I wanted to do it again. You can’t have the camera without the lens and vice versa. There’s just no point. I went with a new Intrepid and 1 used 150mm lens. My rationale was that (a) I didn’t want to wait for a nice used camera to show up on the market and (b) assumed that a new camera would have less issues that might need addressing and (c) if I abandoned it again I didn’t want to take another financial hit. I hate buying someone else’s problem item. I ordered them at the same time but the lens arrived a few weeks before the camera. In the meantime, I found some used and new film holders and other bits and pieces. I’m pretty sure I got the kit together cheaper than my first try many years ago because I didn’t buy new lenses and the Intrepid is almost dirt cheap. The camera and lens, BTW, are useless without film holders so you’ll need those too. And probably a loupe and dark cloth (which you can make for yourself). And, as someone else said, a sturdy tripod. Sturdy doesn’t have to mean expensive. But you need something that when you set the position the camera won’t move around with the wind or the movement created by inserting and removing the film holders.
Rent or borrow if you can before buying. I’ve had the Intrepid for several months and I wouldn’t buy it again. I find the lack of rear detents and some of the fiddly knobs infuriating (and that’s a “me” problem I suspect because my previous cameras were built with much different designs and precision) and it’s just not a pleasant operating experience. But you get what you pay for. A good-condition Speed Graphic (if you can find one where the price hasn’t been overly inflated) is an okay place to start.
If you’re not doing this to make money/part of your job and it’s just a hobby, I think you should ask “How much disposable income am I willing to invest on the outside chance it’s not fun or I’m bad at it?” The film is not cheap. You can develop at home to trim some costs but it’s still a hobby with recurring costs each time you go out. That rubs some the wrong way after a time and they land up walking away from it. You can resell stuff but rarely will you get all of your money back. Start small: camera, 1 lens, a couple of film holders. Do it for 6 months and re-assess.
Chuck Pere
20-Apr-2024, 09:39
Don't forget to look for people selling complete outfits. Sometimes you can find a good deal that way. Plus save a lot of looking time.
ic-racer
20-Apr-2024, 11:49
Get a Shen-Hao, Chamonix, Toyo, Wista, Horseman or Interpid 4x5 and a Nikkor, Fujinon, Symmar or Sironar 150mm lens.
Joel Kitchens
20-Apr-2024, 17:06
Thanks. I think it's the fact that it's so modular, if that's the word I want, that is a bit overwhelming at the outset. I'm not an expert photographer, just someone who has enjoyed taking photos since the film days, and still has everything to learn. The good thing is that there seems to be no shortage of LF cameras for sale, at what look like good prices, so I probably don't need to rush there. It might take a while trying to work out the various compatibility issues with backs, holders, lenses, boards, and any other parts I haven't thought of. As I'm in Japan, I'd probably just go with a Japanese make.
Hello Reverb and welcome to the family!
Being in Japan actually gives you some great options. Used cameras by Wista, Horseman, Tachihara, and Toyo in either field or monorail; as well as excellent quality lenses by Nikon and Fuji. My first camera was a wooden Zone VI that looked very much like a Wista or Tachihara. My initial lens kit was a 135 Schneider Xenar (that I think was made for press cameras like Crown Graphics) and an 8.5 inch Kodak Commercial Ektar in an old Ilex ACME #3 shutter.
I agree with what others have said re: tripods. These are the unsung heroes of photography. I also concur with the recommendation of the Stone book and Simmons book on large format. If you can find it, Jack Dykinga also wrote a fine book on large format. Finally, as someone pointed out, the webpage out of which this forum came is a goldmine of information! https://www.largeformatphotography.info/
Most importantly, take your time, and don't forget to have fun!
Cheers!
Joel
The comments have been incredibly helpful, interesting, and informative! I really appreciate everyone's input. With my knowledge being very limited and based on whatever I manage to remember from a few articles and videos that cover the subject, everything that's been said here has been of value to me.
Here are a few largely disconnected observations from my side, some of them related to comments above, others just adding a bit of detail from my side.
# It was good to hear something about tripods, because it explained (warned about) some things I hadn't really considered before. I will certainly pay attention there.
# I'm really a very casual photographer. I do it all for fun. I don't make rapid progress but I don't mind too much, and I don't have a strong creative urge. Possibly not the best candidate for LF, but I still think I could be able to derive enjoyment from it, and that's all I'm after.
# My initial idea has been to start indoors, and perhaps around the house, photographing objects / still life / call-it-what-you-will, to get a feel for the process. That also appeals to my laziness while I get the confidence to go a bit further afield. I have some half-formed ideas about combining it with hiking, which I do already, though I have other, obviously lighter, camera gear for that, and if I never get around to it, no real matter. But certainly, there are some great landscapes to shoot.
# I started to get interested in LF when I found out about Intrepid cameras. Ultimately, I was a little put off by some of the quibbles about build, and I have the impression that the saving in both weight and money is not quite compelling enough against a secondhand model, as those prices look pretty reasonable to me. The most recent camera I had my eye on was a metal Toyo half-plate field camera, and I felt myself weakening yesterday, but by the look of it, many cameras will continue to be available, so I probably needn't rush into it. It also occurred to me that at those prices I may not have to commit myself to a single camera.
# With indoor shooting being one goal, I know a monorail camera might be recommended. I do have it partially in mind, and prices are tempting, though I imagine it might be a lot more troublesome to store one while it's not in use than with a field camera. You will probably understand from my location that space is always an issue.
# As I mentioned earlier, I'll probably choose a Japan brand because there are several to choose from, and my source will be within Japan. It also looks as if the foreign brands come at a bit of a premium here: it's a prestige thing, I think.
Joseph Kashi
21-Apr-2024, 07:02
......
# As I mentioned earlier, I'll probably choose a Japan brand because there are several to choose from, and my source will be within Japan. It also looks as if the foreign brands come at a bit of a premium here: it's a prestige thing, I think.
Given that you are living in Japan, there should be a wide variety of choice directly available to you. One well-known and highly reputable seller in Japan is B.S. Kumar, who is well-known on this forum and the Photrio.com forum. I would suggest contact Kumar and discuss some various Japanese camera options available on the home market.
As to lenses, Fujinon and Nikon large format lenses have an excellent reputation for high-quality relative to price and they should be more readily available in Japan.
Many of us have purchased a significant portion of our large format gear from Japan and you will not have to deal with shipping delays and costs.
Thanks. I do know of Kumar, I recall that I contacted him...rifling through my emails, I see it was two years ago now...about 5x7 when I was still thinking about Intrepid (seeing as they have such a model, and I thought at the time that it might be good to have it as an option on top of 4x5). He was kind enough to bring me up to speed on that. Basically 5x7 is a no-go here, the film is hard to get and I'd just be creating problems for myself, was the gist of it. So I mentally reset for 4x5. I also didn't realize at the time just how much gear is available here - I wasn't really thinking secondhand at the time.
John Kasaian
21-Apr-2024, 08:49
I accumulated my LF gear (8x10) and it certainly can be accomplished. The thing is, making photos is what keeps your enthusiasm for the effort going.
I'll suggest:
1. Make a list of the absolute minimum gear you'll need to take an LF photo.
2. Make a list of what photo equipment you already have that can be used for LF work (consider filters, maybe a heavy-duty medium format tripod, trays. loupe, safe-light, cable release, etc...)
3. Make a list of what items you can build yourself or repurpose (drying screen, back-pack or case, zip-lock plastic bag for film holders, dark cloth, glass for contacts, etc...)
4. Try your hand at pinhole photography. This will give you some chops at handling 4x5 sheets and produce images to whet your appetite.
5."Bundle" your purchases as much as possible. If a camera includes a lensboard or film holders, you're golden.
6. Have FUN!
mhayashi
21-Apr-2024, 08:54
Where are you located in Japan?
I live in downtown Tokyo.
Dan Fromm
21-Apr-2024, 08:55
Reverb, since you're in Japan, stick with equipment that's already in Japan to avoid potentially very expensive shipping costs. You've been given much good advice already, but it is focused on the US market. Importing from the US makes sense only if the price is very very right.
Most people who start thinking about going LF agonize over which gear (format, camera, lenses, tripod) is best for them. Eventually they settle on the ideal rig, get it, and learn by using it what really suits them. The first LF rig is usually the wrong rig. Accept that, get something you can afford and it will teach you what you really need.
One thought about format. I'm not sure about Japan and the UK, but here in the US half plate is a poorly supported obsolete format. Choose a widely used format that's well supported.
As for second hand or used gear, as soon as you buy a new lens (not available for LF) or camera (somewhat available) it transforms into a used lens or camera. Used gear costs much less than new. Just buy with the right of return and test gear on arrival. You may need to find a shop with a shutter speed tester to confirm that a new used lens' shutter is, ideally, on speciification or, practically, consistent at every speed. Check bellow for leaks.
Basically 5x7 is a no-go here, the film is hard to get and I'd just be creating problems for myself, was the gist of it. So I mentally reset for 4x5.
If you want to shoot 5x7, I think that you should find out what the availability of 5x7 film is in Japan and what the price is. Here in the U.S., 5x7 black and white film is readily available. So is Kodak colour, but it’s pretty expensive. Fuji colour film may be available in Japan.
In my view, one of the attractions of 5x7 is that it lends itself to contact printing more than does 4x5. Contact printing is simpler and less expensive than acquiring and using a large format enlarger, and will give you results that can’t be beat. As a beginner, especially, contact printing will give you invaluable experience, and you might even find it fun and rewarding.
If you are in Japan, there is a lot of stuff right at your doorstep!
Now, whatever you do, you will need: a camera, a lens, a tripod, film holders, a light meter AND FILM. (and a dark place to load the holders). A dark cloth and loupe are very useful as well. Whatever way you go, you won't be able to make a single exposure without having everything. I have a couple of Wista bodies, some Fuji SWD and CM-W lenses (they have the same filter thread) and a load of holders. Most of them from Japan. I'm happy with them. 90% of this stuff is better then the photographers on this forum.
Just look at what you want to do. That will tell you what type of camera (monorail or field or tlr or...) and lens combination will get you started. I wanted something to go about and reasonably wide so I ended up with a Wista 45 and Fuji 75SWD. Had already a tripod and lightmeter.
Robert Opheim
21-Apr-2024, 15:46
If you are trying to shoot around the house - you will want some bellows extension for more close-up images that you might shoot. I am on my third 4x5 camera. The first two cameras were rail cameras: A Graphicview II - 19 inch bellows, and an Omega View E - just under 18 inch bellows. Both cameras worked very well - but I wanted a camera that could handle wide angle lenses with perspective correcting movements. I needed bag bellows - as I needed the movements for taking images of buildings. Neither the Graflex or the Omega (Toyo) cameras that I had provisions for a bag bellows. I purchased a used Technikardan 4x5 (around 20 inches for the standard bellows) which was more portable and with it I purchased a bag bellows and a regular bellows. I currently use lenses from 75mm to 450mm on this camera.
You most likely need to see if you can deal with a camera that is always on a tripod, or one that can be used sometimes for hand-held. There are Wista, and Toyo cameras that look very interesting, and there are: Nikor, Fuji, and other lenses available in Japan as well as others.
Oh wow, I take my eye off the screen for a few hours and it fills up with more of the good stuff. Thanks everyone. A very welcoming community here.
Some quick points that may partly answer some of the comments above (which I'll need to read over again later this evening).
# Yes, will probably stay with Japanese gear, just because it's going to be so easy to find - and I'm a bit "patriotic" about Japanese goods. Lenses, well that may include some non-Japanese as well. One day.
# I won't be doing 5x7: abandoned that a while back on Kumar's advice. The film is very hard to find. The idea was purely tied to an Intrepid model, affordable and seeming not much larger or heavier than their 4x5. I thought it might be nice simply to have as an additional option to 4x5, but as it's impractical for Japan, not much point in having the capability.
# I also dropped the idea of getting an Intrepid at all quite a while ago, when I realized I might prefer to live with something more solidly built, and I've only been thinking about secondhand ever since. I'm not much of a 3D printing fan.
# Re half plate, I had heard, again from Kumar probably, that half-plate isn't viable. The Toyo field camera I was looking at the other day had a half plate back, but would be used for 4x5 only. From discussions I read, it's not even suited to 5x7 without some DIY adaptation. I'm not really looking at that model any more, because, don't laugh, I've tilted toward monorail cameras.
# Hayashi-san, without being too specific, I'll say I'm beyond outer Tokyo. Not quite close enough to drop by the camera shops without some advance planning, both for money and time, but when I need to go, I can.
Tin Can
22-Apr-2024, 05:17
I TRUST Kumar
I have asked for a few "MINT"
and more than satisfied
also consider the shutter
Buy the best, you may need to wait
shutter repair parts are hard to find
BrianShaw
22-Apr-2024, 05:23
@reverb, it sounds like you’ve done your analysis and settled on your requirements and constraints. Perhaps you should contact Kumar, tell him your budget, and see what he can offer. :)
Another potential source for you on eBay is a seller named Kumar-Japan. Lots of good equipment offered. Our Kumar told me that’s not him.
mhayashi
22-Apr-2024, 05:31
Reverb, when you visit Tokyo, let me know.
I should mention that on checking Kumar's message from a couple of years ago, he said that doesn't sell within Japan.
Reverb, when you visit Tokyo, let me know.
Will do!
B.S.Kumar
22-Apr-2024, 19:16
I should mention that on checking Kumar's message from a couple of years ago, he said that doesn't sell within Japan.
That was then, mainly due to the consumption tax accounting rules. I now sell within Japan also. Please get in touch if you need anything.
Kumar
Thanks, Kumar. Glad to hear you're open for business.
Well I'm moving along, having ordered a camera, a tripod, and narrowing down my choices on a lens (probably 150 mm), just to get things started. I'll be spending a while, and probably quite a long while, on going through the motions with the gear to get a feel for things before feeding any film into a camera. That brings me on to the question of developing. I have the bare essentials for 35 mm and 120 film, using a Paterson tank to develop in. I have next to no experience with developing, as the last time was nearly a year ago. I've only done a couple of medium format rolls. But at the time, the large format idea was germinating, and I think I was planning, if the day ever came, to use a Stearman Press tank for 4x5. So I'd like to hear some opinions on that, as I just found some references by people about problems with streaks caused by the holders. If I'd ever heard that before, I'd already forgotten.
All I need from the process is negatives. With those, for the time being, I will just rephotograph them with my digital camera to get files I can use for printing. I should mention that I'll probably shoot and develop a couple more rolls of 120 before I start developing large format.
BrianShaw
24-Apr-2024, 06:58
So what camera did you choose? A 150 will be a good focal length to start with. Also consider either a 135 or 180, depending on your preferences.
Yes to the Stearman system! If you didn’t know, they’ve added a 6-sheet version. Haven’t read any reviews on the newer product yet but if it performs like the 4-sheet version…
That's good to know.
The camera is a Toyoview monorail. The model number was not listed, but hunting round for a visual match, it must be the 45S. Maybe from the 1970s? It's mentioned in this thread:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?35573-Toyo-45S
The tripod is a Gitzo PL5, perhaps of similar vintage. I didn't find much information yesterday and I haven't researched them very closely.
I did indeed buy a 150 mm lens: a Fujinar f6.3 in what looks like reasonable shape. There was a video showing its operation.
I bought all three items from separate sellers at what I consider to be quite cheap prices. It looks as if these sellers are all stores with a physical presence, which I have usually found works out well when I use Yahoo Auction for audio gear.
BrianShaw
24-Apr-2024, 07:55
Congratulations. Sounds like a nice setup. Enjoy!
Thank you! I'm looking forward to it.
As for developing, if you already have a Patterson 3 tank, I can recommend the B's, 6 sheet 4x5 developing reel as a relatively cheap way to get started.
https://www.bounetphoto.com/bounet-shop/bs-4x5-developing-reel
Bonus is, you can use one tank for all smaller formats with the appropriate reels. I have the 9x12cm version for my Kodak Recomar and Voigtlander plate cameras and it works fine.
Just another option...
Alan Klein
24-Apr-2024, 08:21
Well I'm moving along, having ordered a camera, a tripod, and narrowing down my choices on a lens (probably 150 mm), just to get things started. I'll be spending a while, and probably quite a long while, on going through the motions with the gear to get a feel for things before feeding any film into a camera. That brings me on to the question of developing. I have the bare essentials for 35 mm and 120 film, using a Paterson tank to develop in. I have next to no experience with developing, as the last time was nearly a year ago. I've only done a couple of medium format rolls. But at the time, the large format idea was germinating, and I think I was planning, if the day ever came, to use a Stearman Press tank for 4x5. So I'd like to hear some opinions on that, as I just found some references by people about problems with streaks caused by the holders. If I'd ever heard that before, I'd already forgotten.
All I need from the process is negatives. With those, for the time being, I will just rephotograph them with my digital camera to get files I can use for printing. I should mention that I'll probably shoot and develop a couple more rolls of 120 before I start developing large format.
Good luck with your new setup.
I think that will do nicely to start with. Thanks for the information. I can hold on the Stearman for a while.
Good luck with your new setup.
Thank you. Everyone has been most encouraging.
I just came home to the delivered gear (camera and tripod, lens coming tomorrow). All very exciting. I will open it later. That tripod is a substantial piece of kit! I see I won't be strapping that to a backpack.
That's good to know.
The camera is a Toyoview monorail. .
Be aware that the first bellows of Toyo cameras are usually very bad, they start to show pin prick holes pretty fast, so check your bellows carefully. Take the camera to a dark room, and shine light from the inside of your bellows, and check. You could be avoiding a bad first experience with fogged negatives !
otherwise: enjoy !
Best,
Cor
It was mentioned in the sales info that it had several pinholes, so I will be checking for that and to see what else to repair. I imagine I'll also be in the market for a new bellows from eTone at some point.
On examination, definitely a lot more than several holes that allow light through. So I'll probably be getting a new bellows soon. I'm not sure which one on the eTone site is compatible, as the Toyo 45S is not listed, but just sent an email to ask.
Everything else looks good. The tripod is solid as hell and seems to be in full working order, and the camera is a pleasure to handle and operate. First time touching a large format camera! Very nice build quality.
Don't forget film holders. Sacrifise a few sheets of film to learn to load them and whatever development tank you get.
Don't forget film holders. Sacrifise a few sheets of film to learn to load them and whatever development tank you get.
I have 3 film holders that came with the camera, and a 25-sheet box of film on the way. I will use a few sheets to practice loading the holders.
I've changed my mind about the model number. I think this must be the D45M.
I've tried a basic bellows repair with black acrylic paint, which I'll leave for a few more hours and then see if I missed any pinholes. It seems to have worked well. The exact bellows dimensions don't quite match the two mains sizes for Toyo on eTone's website, so I think if I get a new bellows they'd need to be custom-made. I measured the plastic frame the bellows is glued on to at 159 mm (not 160), and the frame has to fit into a groove on the back of the front and rear board (panel?). The outer diameter of the bellows itself is 145 mm, which again, doesn't seem to match the Toyo bellows sizes on eTone.
Vaughan
28-Apr-2024, 05:10
I've tried a basic bellows repair with black acrylic paint, which I'll leave for a few more hours and then see if I missed any pinholes.
Forget it and buy a replacement, the pinholes will keep returning. I purchased a new-old-stock still-in-box Toyo 45 bellows and every corner leaked light. The Toyo synthetic bag bellows also leak everywhere. Don't bother trying to fix them.
If the bellows has flat metal frames then buy the smaller size. The larger bellows is for the (newer) plastic frames. I have both types and have replaced both.
Mine has plastic frames, with a raised rim on the rear (the side away from the bellows) that fits into a groove in the panel on the front and rear standard. On the bellows side of the frame, there are four small guides (raised) that are 150 mm apart, so a bellows must fit within the area marked out by those. Etone tells me in an email that their 150 mm square bellows has an outer diameter of 153 and inner diameter of 125. I'm confirming with them now that they really did mean 153, because it would be just too large for my frames, which I'd prefer to keep.
A correction: the frame that my bellows is attached to is metal. Of course. Very light, so I assume it's aluminium. I also figure that I can just glue the eTone 153 mm bellows to it as long as I make sure that it's well sealed on and around the bumps (which are only 150 mm apart).
I have both the Toyo 4x5 metal and plastic framed bellows, and replaced both with those from eTone. The metal frames need the smaller size bellows, the plastic the larger size.
Thanks Vaughan. I've been tussling with the slight lack of information though. I'm not certain what model I have - that's not on the camera - but it's something along the lines of the D45M: cream body, and a stainless steel monorail with teeth on the bottom. As I understand, there are various older models that would fit that description, and very little difference between them, despite the different model numbers.
I was surprised that eTone lists bellows for Toyo in 2 sizes, 160 and 150, which sounds unambiguous enough, but when pressed, they give the outer diameter of the smaller bellows as 153 mm. I'm comfortable with metric and specifically with the idea of a mm measurement being exactly what it says, so to me it can be either 153 or 150, not one for a web listing and another for a "precise" spec. But large format, in just a few weeks, has introduced me to a lot of things I wasn't previously familiar with, so I'll add that to the pile.
It sounds to me as if you have the same metal frame type as I do. Is it uniformly flat, or does it have the raised indicators? My current bellows fits comfortably within the area marked by those, but it seems to me that a 150 and particularly a 153 mm bellows wouldn't.
The flat metal frame has a couple of raised bumps. Generally all the bellows, backs and lens boards are interchangeable between cameras; the older frames and rails are not interchangeable with newer models.
Thanks for the information!
I'm at a loss again. Trying to work out how the film back that came with my Toyo is to be used in portrait orientation. It's definitely a Toyo film back - I assume from the same era as the camera, so it's old.
In landscape, fine, as the top and bottom slide clamps on the camera slide into position in the grooves on the top and bottom edge of the film back and hold it firmly. In this orientation, there are no grooves on the left and right side, so simply flipping the film back 90 degrees for portrait doesn't present the same method to secure the back. It can be held in place by having the slide clamps press onto the top and bottom edge of the film back, but this is not secure. I took one photo this way, using great care, and as improvisation it worked, but I must be missing something about how this is really supposed to be done. Any ideas?
MartyNL
12-May-2024, 02:26
My toyo 4x5 film back rotates.
Does yours rotate?
I don't think it's a rotating back. (I'm kind of certain actually, but a few weeks with large format has taught me not to be certain about anything.) I'll put up a photo.
MartyNL
12-May-2024, 05:01
What does the silver arm do that I've circled in red?
If it's not possible to separate the back into 2 identifiable pieces in order to remove and rotate the frame 90° then rotation may still be a possibility...
MartyNL
12-May-2024, 05:09
Without wishing to insult your intelligence, my newer model rotating 4x5 Toyo back looks ominously like yours...
And my feeling tells me, if it doesn't have a rotation mechanism, then why have a circle on the inside rather than just a square for removal and replace?
What does the silver arm do that I've circled in red?
If it's not possible to separate the back into 2 identifiable pieces in order to remove and rotate the frame 90° then rotation may still be a possibility...
I have not been able to work that out! Clearly it has some function; I originally assume it was either a locking lever or a lever for separating parts of the film back, either for rotation or removing the glass and fresnel screen. Also, it's about the only part of the back that looks as if it operates something, if you don't count the button that opens the hood. But although it folds out to about 90 degrees, I haven't been able to make anything happen with it yet.
I don't have manuals for any of my large format related stuff: the lenses, the camera, the tripod. In the medium format, SLR, and digital photography world, I have been able to just sit down and work through the manual, and usually everything's explained. LF just seems like an entirely different world, and I've been clueless about all of it. In my defence, I'm a little reluctant to assume what I don't know, and also to use force where it might result in damage. So sometimes, knowing just how hard to press or pull on something to get it to work is difficult. The combination of aged materials and parts that might have seized over time could also have changed the equation from when the gear was new.
MartyNL
12-May-2024, 08:08
There are manuals out there as you say. Here is a screenshot from one from Buktus.
Excellent. Thank you!
The description for the film back is brief: I haven't got it to work with mine yet, but I'll take a close look tomorrow.
Finally! Got it to move to portrait. It's not very easy at the moment, but maybe it just needs to be worked a few times and it'll get easier. Hope so. Thanks for putting me on the right path. I appreciate it.
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