Tele for LF landscape with background compression (8x10)

[Steven Ferson]

Hello,

I am new to large format and am shooting and developping my first sheets.

I had the opportunity to buy a used chamonix 8x10 and decided to jump in. After shooting a year on a yashica TLR, i had a good idea of how versatile a single focal length can be. With my fuji 250 and 360 lenses, i have the most versatile medium wide to normal ranges covered.

For compressed landscapes that require a moderate tele on smaller formats, there seem to be some challenges in 8x10.
(Tripod stability, bellows, shutter shock, wind,…).

Solutions:
1) use a smaller format camera and skip these shots in 8x10
2) use a reducing back to 4x5
3) digital crop of the negative
4) spend €€€ on a nikon T600

I was en route for option 1 and 3 until i stumbled on a reasonable priced nikon T600.

What are your experiences for this kind of landscapes or other shots that need tele on 8x10?

Examples photo’s are welcome!



THX
Steven

[Drew Wiley]

How much bellows extension do you actually have with your 8x10? I sometimes use a Fuji 600C on my 8x10, which is a lot more compact than any tele. Long lens work is a lot easier with 4x5 format, however. In terms of distant subjects, the limiting factor in image quality is generally the quality of the intervening atmosphere itself. You might or might not get more detail on 8x10, depending on how clear the air is, whether heat waves are present or not, etc. Wind vibration can be a serious issue too. Frankly, I get a lot more use out of my 450C instead, when it comes to 8x10, although that same lens makes an excellent long length for 4x5 film format as well.

[Vaughan]

The Fujinon T 600mm won't cover 8x10, it just covers whole plate 6½x8½ and 5x7 with some movement, but note that tilt and swing are difficult with telephoto lens designs.

Differentiate between a "telephoto" lens and a "long lens. With large format there is a significant difference in coverage and bellows.

The go-to telephoto for 8x10 is the Nikkor T ED 600/800/1200mm lens (one front cell and three rear cells to change focal length). The Nikkor T ED 360/500/720mm with 720mm rear just covers 8x10 with little movement (despite the specs saying otherwise).

Otherwise any plasmat or tessar (ie, non-telephoto) lens of focal length over 300mm should cover 8x10. Remember that you don't get much compression with 8x10: a 300mm lens is standard, a 600mm lens only has a FFE of 100mm. A 1200mm lens is obviously a FFE of 200mm but it's a real challenge to work with. As Drew said, vibration will be your biggest challenge, and atmospheric haze a close second.

[Mark Sampson]

I've successfully used a 19" (480mm) f/11 Goerz Red Dot Artar on an 8x10 camera in the field, and a friend has long used his 24" (600mm) version of that lens.
But certainly the 600mm Nikkor-T would be your best option here, if you can find one and afford it. A very sturdy tripod and a golf umbrella to shield your setup from the wind will be necessary- but your pictures should be amazing. Best of luck!

[Steven Ferson]

How much bellows extension do you actually have with your 8x10? I sometimes use a Fuji 600C on my 8x10, which is a lot more compact than any tele. Long lens work is a lot easier with 4x5 format, however. In terms of distant subjects, the limiting factor in image quality is generally the quality of the intervening atmosphere itself. You might or might not get more detail on 8x10, depending on how clear the air is, whether heat waves are present or not, etc. Wind vibration can be a serious issue too. Frankly, I get a lot more use out of my 450C instead, when it comes to 8x10, although that same lens makes an excellent long length for 4x5 film format as well.

The Chamonix has 700 mm bellows. This should be enough for a 450 or a tele 600 for landscape. Stability and vibrations are more of a concern.

A fuji 450c is on my whish list because of weight, size and copal1 shutter, but might be a bit close to my fuji 360 and is expensive. Thats why i consider digital cropping.

My question is not about the lens choice - the fuji c450 , nikon T 600 or a 24” artar seem to be the obvious choices- but about the results in relation to the inconveniences and challenges to get a picture at longer focal lengths.

In the replies i see some confirmation of my concerns

[Steven Ferson]

I have my eyes on a Nikon T 600 ED.

I am aware of the limited compression on 8x10 and the challenges to use a T600. I am trying to figure out if a T600 is usable or that most 8x10 shooters switch to a crop for this kind of shots. In that case a 450c might be the better (lighter, smaller, more portable, less shutter shock,…but more expensive) choice.

Meanwhile i can use my 360 and experiment with digital cropping of the negative.

Steven

[ic-racer]

Perspective ('compression') is only affected by subject distance. Film format or lens have no effect.
You are on the right track, cropping your 360mm images to see if you would like the 600.

[CreationBear]

Here’s an article you might find interesting:
https://photographylife.com/best-lenses-8x10-camera
that lays out some options on the long end.

Otherwise, assuming you’re going the hybrid route, simply adding a reducing back to your 8x10 kit might be the most effective way to go—for my own purposes, a 5x7 back on my 8x10 Norma checks a lot of boxes (including the ineffable “ground glass experience”.). Of course, if you’re not into compromise, the Christopher Burkett approach is fun, too ;)
http://www.creekwalker.com/christopher-burkett-photographer-1998.html

[Steven Ferson]

Thanks for the links!

Christopher Burkett ‘s images and perfectionism are an eye opener.

[Mal Paso]

I have the Nikkor 600/1200 T ED. A true telephoto, the infinity focus is shorter than the focal length. With 40 inches of bellows the 600 will focus to 6 feet and the 1200 to 25 feet.

I'm shooting 4x5. Atmospherics is huge! A lot of days it's too ugly to shoot. How else are you going to get the long shots?

[Vaughan]

If you choose a telephoto lens, note that the design severely limits tilts and swings. The long lens barrel and optical design cause mechanical vignetting when the lens is rotated around the shutter (tilt or swing) which precludes using scheimpflg to control the depth of field. This may be a consideration - possibly a deal-breaker - for landscape. (Rear movements can be used but they will change image shape, and not all cameras have centre axis rear tilt or swing.)

I have a Fujinon T 400mm and a Nikkor T ED 360/500/720mm with all three rear cells, and while the lenses offer generous rise and shift (depending on focal length and format) they mechanically vignette when applying anything that approaches useful tilt.

[Mal Paso]

With most of the telephoto photos I've taken the angle of view is to narrow to include close foreground. What foreground you get is distant. I'm using 8x10 lenses on a 4x5 and mostly the geometry is wrong to make Scheimpflug really useful. Using the front tilt to move the viewed image to the edge of the image circle yields a much smaller tilt angle than my 115mm Grandagon with a similar image circle.

That Fujinon T 400 is a great lens. I was looking at the Fujinon T 600 when the 600 Nikkor came up for sale.

I must say, if most advertising photos were still shot on large sheets of Ektachrome I couldn't afford the Nikkor. Film and paper are going up but I got a deal on the glass.

[tgtaylor]

I'm pretty sure that image #40 (The Ball Player)on this page: https://www.spiritsofsilver.com/galleries/historical_processes_albumin_cyanotypes_kallitypes_uranotypes_and_van_dykes was taken with the 760mm Apo Nikkor on a Toyo MII camera. I focused on the eyes or nose and stopped down for the background. In the print the pitcher is sharply focused giving it a 3d effect.

[Drew Wiley]

I have a 760 Apo Nikkor process barrel lens. It's big and bulky and ridiculously sharp, but would require a huge no.5 shutter; yet it's not as bulky as a tele covering 8x10 would be. Enormous image circle. That's why I use a 600 Fuji C instead, which is in fact distinctly "compact" and in a more reasonable no. 3 shutter, yet also has an gigantic image circle, with ample movement potential, and plenty sharp for any reasonable usage in the field. Yeah, those have gotten expensive, and might make you think twice about using 4x5 format instead for your long lens work.

Fuji T's are decent lenses, but are not suitable for 8x10.

[Vaughn]

I have a Turner Reich triple converitable that the rear element used alone is 28", or about 710mm. Not razor sharp, more like an over-used Exacto blade. Covers 8x10 easily, but I have to bring out the Kodak 2D because my Zone VI does not quite have the bellows for it. And I have a 5x7 back for the 2D if needed. Otherwise I go with the 24" RD Artar. Long enough for 8x10.

[MAubrey]

There's also the Nikkor-T 720mm:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/coverage-of-the-nikkor-t-ed-360mm-500mm-and-720mm-lenses.196171/

[Mal Paso]

There's also the Nikkor-T 720mm:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/coverage-of-the-nikkor-t-ed-360mm-500mm-and-720mm-lenses.196171/

Fascinating! Thanks for the post! You do lose almost 2 stops over the 600mm f9 but it should be excellent glass.

I have 2 struts that connect between the end of the monorail and 2 of the tripod legs to minimize vibration.

[MAubrey]

Fascinating! Thanks for the post! You do lose almost 2 stops over the 600mm f9 but it should be excellent glass.

I have 2 struts that connect between the end of the monorail and 2 of the tripod legs to minimize vibration.

You'll also save over half the weight!

[Steven Ferson]

Based on most of the posts, there are a lot of good reasons not to buy a nikon T 600 f9 ED for distant landscape shots on 8x10.

The proposed alternatives are at this focal length, heavier or a lot more expensive, some of them come without shutter. Most of the inherent challenges to take a good picture remain however ( atmospherics, camera shake, bellows extension).

Cropping ( digital, reducing back or 4x5 camera) seems the sensible solution.

My remaining question about the nikon T 600 is what the main purpose of these Tele lenses was. For what kind of shots and film format are they designed? When is this the prefered lens? Probably more close up shots?

Steven

[Dan Fromm]

My remaining question about the nikon T 600 is what the main purpose of these Tele lenses was. For what kind of shots and film format are they designed? When is this the prefered lens? Probably more close up shots?

Photographer has a short camera, wants to use a long lens.

[Vaughan]

It would have been designed for 8x10. I believe Toyo updated the M810 with longer bellos extension specifically or the 1200mm version.

[Drew Wiley]

If this is all just about background compression, you might end up owning a long heavy tele and seldom actually use it. Usually it's the other way around, involving the challenge of taming the shallow depth of field inherent to the longer lenses of 8x10 work. It might be more useful to have a moderate focal length lens with good "bokeh" at wider working apertures. The Fuji 360 A is a wonderful lens for crisp results, but doesn't render background blur smoothly. You might look into a Fuji 420 L-series for such purposes instead, or something analogous.

[Steven Ferson]

If this is all just about background compression, you might end up owning a long heavy tele and seldom actually use it. Usually it's the other way around, involving the challenge of taming the shallow depth of field inherent to the longer lenses of 8x10 work. It might be more useful to have a moderate focal length lens with good "bokeh" at wider working apertures. The Fuji 360 A is a wonderful lens for crisp results, but doesn't render background blur smoothly. You might look into a Fuji 420 L-series for such purposes instead, or something analogous.

Based on this thread, i decided to stop looking for longer lenses. I see very few photo’s that justify the expense for me. Zoom with my feet or crop is the way to go.

I will prioritise on rendering and shutter size for my next purchases. The 420 L might be better / more useful than a 450c.
I own the big and heavy 360 cm-w. There is some potential for weight saving and a smaller/faster shutter, but the remark about background rendering is good advice.

i love the heliar, (and tessar in general) look. It is my TLR with tessar lenses that drew me to LF. More aperture blades can help, but are difficult to find in a lightweight lens in a modern shutter.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, IIRC you might also check out the Nikkor 450 M that’s often classified as a tessar lens as well, though it, like the Fuji, seems to have been bid-up by the deep-pocketed ULF guys in recent years.;) For myself, I’ve taken the Dollar Tree approach on the long end and gone with a 16 1/2” RDA and a 21 1/4” Kodak Ektanon, both in barrel—works a treat, especially with FP4+ under canopy.

[tgtaylor]

I'm pretty sure that image #40 (The Ball Player)on this page: https://www.spiritsofsilver.com/galleries/historical_processes_albumin_cyanotypes_kallitypes_uranotypes_and_van_dykes was taken with the 760mm Apo Nikkor on a Toyo MII camera. I focused on the eyes or nose and stopped down for the background. In the print the pitcher is sharply focused giving it a 3d effect.

I ran across the notebook I used when I made the exposure and it turns out that the lens was the 610mm Apo-Nikkor and not the 760mm. The notebook jogged my memory. Originally I intended to use the 760 but the park service had a big tent set-up which prevented me from getting further back so I set-up the camera as close to the tent as I could get and the 610 framed it beautifully. The exposure was made at f32 @ 1/8".

The adjacent image (#41 - California Volunteers) was taken with the 760mm, f22 @ 1/25" from the crosswalk in front of a Whole Foods store on Market street in downtown SF. Originally the monument was prominently placed at the Market and Van Ness intersection, a major intersection in downtown SF, but was subsequently moved to its current location. Because the morning sun is mostly blocked by the apartment building, the afternoon is the best time to shoot it if the weather is clear. But then the apartment building, which is unappealing in my view, and the shadows cast by the winged horse pose a challenge.

[Robert Opheim]

See Large Format Photography article https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?155357-24-inch-lens-on-Chamonix-8x10 I have a Calumet C-2 8x10 and with a 30-34 inch bellows extension the camera moves a bit on my old #4 Aluminum Gitzo or my wood cine film Professional Junior. I used 2 converted slider braces to add rigidity to the mix. My current longer lenses are: 450MM Nikor M and a 19 Inch Red Dot Artar. Getting enough depth of field is always an issue with 8x10 - so I am stopping way down - typically f/45 with longer exposure times. I am shooting black and white film so I am not dealing with color shift due to long exposures.

[hasim495]

The Nikon T 600 f9 ED lens is primarily designed for shorter cameras and close-up shots rather than distant landscapes on 8x10. It’s not ideal for 8x10 due to mechanical vignetting and limitations with tilts and swings. Cropping or using other lenses might be more practical for distant landscape photography.

[Steven Ferson]

THX! The 420 or 450 mm tessar lenses are probably better suitable as a long lens choice