Fomapan 200 pink : fixer change

[Mark J]

Hi All
I have developed a few small batches of Foma 200 5x7" recently, but fixed them all with an existing bottle of Moersch alkaline fix.
Today I discarded that and mixed up some 1+4 Hypam.
I used the same 1.5 to 2min water pre-wash, but have residual pink on the base after approx a 4min fix.

Is this to be expected, do I need to use a longer pre-wash or some additive, if using an acid fix ?
Developer is PMK.

[Michael R]

The pH of the fixer shouldn’t normally make a big difference, but in some cases residual dyes that have not come out earlier in the process might come out somewhat faster in an alkaline fix, and that will tend to depend on the nature of the dyes and how hardened the emulsion is. I assume you used the right fixing time in Hypam.

If dye removal is more/less efficient in a particular fixer, that difference is more likely to be seen/noticed if the developer had a low level of sulfite - which is the case for staining developers such as PMK.

Extended washing will sometimes help. Alternatively the use of a hypo clearing agent (Ilford Washaid, Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent etc.) after fixing can also sometimes help with the removal of stubborn residual dyes. A hypo clearing bath is functionally just sulfite and is easily made - roughly 25g/l sodium sulfite in water. Precision is not required. Distilled water is best for the sulfite bath if there’s a lot of calcium in your tap water (or add a gram or two of sodium bisulfite if you have some).

[Mark J]

OK thanks. I just bought some new sodium sulphite to help with the FB paper toning process.
Can I apply this after the fact ( eg. tomorrow ) ?

[dave_whatever]

My Foma200 aways ends up coming out pink, even with a pre-wash before the dev, even with fresh Hypam fixer, fixing with two baths, and lots of washing.

However, I did notice on negs that I go on to then do a rehalogenating bleach and redevelop with pyrocat then the pink disappears completely.

[Michael R]

OK thanks. I just bought some new sodium sulphite to help with the FB paper toning process.
Can I apply this after the fact ( eg. tomorrow ) ?

Yes that’s fine. Give the film a few minutes of soak in plain water first to get it throughly re-wet and then do the sulfite bath. 10 minutes in the sulfite with a little agitation here and there is probably enough (although you can’t overdo it so don’t worry) and then a wash. If that doesn’t do anything my suggestion would be to try re-fixing in fresh fix and then repeating the sulfite/wash and if that doesn’t do anything you’re probably stuck with some dye. A pink tinge isn’t going to matter when printing.

[Mark J]

OK thanks. It was fresh fix ( made up tonight ) and about a 20min wash, but let's see what the sulphite/sulphite bath does tomorrow. I will report back.

Edit : just found another relevant comment, from some info John Wimberley gave me. 1 level teaspoon of Sodium Carbonate and 1/2 tsp Bisulphite in 1 L , in the pre-wash, for dye mask.
I'll try the Na Sulphite first anyway.

[Offhand35]

Otherwise, you could try this. After the films have been fixed and washed, you could dip the films back into developer that you have not yet discarded. The remaining dyes should dissolve off with no harm to the images. Then a brief water wash and the usual wash in Photo-Flo (if you use that), and dry.
I learned this from the instruction sheet that came with my B's Reel, since there is little developer circulation behind the film with this reel, and some films, like Arista and Fomapan, have anti-halation dyes that are difficult to remove.

[Mark J]

Thanks Michael, the sodium sulphite worked a treat.
The dye was gone within 2 or 3 minutes.
I will try some in the pre-wash next time.

Thanks for the others who replied too.

Dave - I like the Grit blocs on your website. Good subject. I do a bit of bumbling around on the rocks myself, I take an interest in the scene.

[paulbarden]

A sodium sulfite soak at the end always works to remove any unwanted dye, from any film, IME.

[tundra]

Hi All
I have developed a few small batches of Foma 200 5x7" recently, but fixed them all with an existing bottle of Moersch alkaline fix.
Today I discarded that and mixed up some 1+4 Hypam.
I used the same 1.5 to 2min water pre-wash, but have residual pink on the base after approx a 4min fix.

Is this to be expected, do I need to use a longer pre-wash or some additive, if using an acid fix ?
Developer is PMK.

I've processed a fair bit of Foma 200 and fixed with TF-4 for 5-6min. I wash for 25min in running water and have never had residual pink coloration.

Assuming your fixer is new and properly mixed with distilled water (to eliminate water mineral content variability), the only thing I can think of might be the temperature at which you are fixing or insufficient washing.

[Mark J]

Yes, I switched from an alkaline fix to an acid fix yesterday, that was the change. So it makes sense you never have problems with TF-4 , I didn't with Moersch.
Everything else is fine.

[dsphotog]

Try fixing longer, with constant agitation.

[Michael R]

That’s great news!

One thing - if by pre-wash you mean before the developer, don’t do that unless you then give the film a thorough plain water wash before the developer. You don’t want any sulfite hanging around in the emulsion before development in a staining developer such as PMK because sulfite will inhibit imagewise stain formation. In addition, in general it’s not a good idea because the plain sulfite solution is also quite alkaline. Although it isn’t strongly buffered it could still interfere with the target pH of a developer.

The sulfite (hypo clear) treatment should always be done post fixation.


Thanks Michael, the sodium sulphite worked a treat.
The dye was gone within 2 or 3 minutes.
I will try some in the pre-wash next time.

Thanks for the others who replied too.

Dave - I like the Grit blocs on your website. Good subject. I do a bit of bumbling around on the rocks myself, I take an interest in the scene.

[Mark J]

Ah Ok that saved me some problems.
However I don't want to prolong the pre-wash too much, while the Pyro has been mixed and is oxidising.
Does John Wimberley's wash combination (above) make more sense then ?
I guess also he might have factored-in the alkaline effect of the carbonate ( used anyway in WD2D etc ) into the developer mix/times ?

Maybe the easiest thing is to mix up some more Moersch and dilute the Hypam down for prints instead.

[Michael R]

It’s hard to know exactly what John W. intended although I don’t remember his normal instructions for his pyro developers factoring in a carbonate pre-wash. To be honest it sounds a little strange, but if he said it worked for him I suppose it’s worth trying.

If it were me I’d just do a few minutes in the sulfite solution after fixing as part of the wash cycle but if it’s a pain (extra step) then yes I suppose the easiest thing with this particular film would be to use the Moersch fixer.

[Mark J]

Eg. here, Page 4 :
It's a option he gives for removing anti-halation dyes.
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0155%20.pdf

[Michael R]

Eg. here, Page 4 :
It's a option he gives for removing anti-halation dyes.
https://stores.photoformulary.com/content/01-0155%20.pdf

Interesting. That seems like a strange recommendation and formulation. The carbonate of course is alkaline. Then when you add the bisulfite (acidic sulfite) the solution will become less alkaline, closer to the working pH of Wd2d, but what you end up with is a sulfite solution. So it will work, but I still don’t think that’s a good idea before development if you want maximum imagewise stain. That said, it’s difficult to guesstimate whether or not it will materially impact anything so if that is actually something John recommended (rather than just Formulary) perhaps he tested it and found no ill effects. Can’t hurt to try it, and if it works it works. :)

[Mark J]

Yes, so use with caution.
I did mix up and try WD2H recently ( a minor variant on WD2D+ ) and found very little image stain on the Fomapan, which was not what I expected, given the more alkaline 'B' ( Carbonate ) compared to PMK, so I'm keen to avoid additional ways of losing stain.
Anyway, I have two or three workable solutions to this now, so that's all I needed.

[dave_whatever]

Thanks Mark! Actually managed to shoehorn a few 5x4" images in my book, including one action shot! Was half planning to maybe climb in North wales next week although looking at the forecast I may revise those plans somewhat....


Dave - I like the Grit blocs on your website. Good subject. I do a bit of bumbling around on the rocks myself, I take an interest in the scene.

[Doremus Scudder]

I've had problems with some films (TMY especially) retaining lots of dye when processed in PKK, a normal acid stop and Hypam or Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4. In the case of TMY, some batches were almost opaque with dark blue dye (that turned brilliant magenta when finally washing out).

My solution was an alkaline after-bath. I tried sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium sulfite and the spent developer. They all did the job and are listed here in the order of most rapid to least. I seems the more alkaline, the faster the dye removal. If you're having good luck with sulfite, then go with that.

Best,

Doremus

[Drew Wiley]

I just use alkaline fixer (TF4 or TF5).

[Mark J]

Probably the easiest option.

[Michael R]

I just use alkaline fixer (TF4 or TF5).

TF-5 is not alkaline.