Why TF-5 Fixer??

[Kevin Crisp]

Just to give it context, I've been using Kodak Rapid Fixer for at least 50 years. I mix up a gallon, use it and use it with no regard to capacities. At some point after about 6 to 9 months it goes bad (little white flakes) and I dump it and make up a new batch. After my recent issues with the 'No-Promise' Kodak version and its short (NOT "indefinite") shelf life, I thought I'd try TF-5.

I mixed a gallon of it 36 days ago. I've used it a few times, with no complaints other than it not seeming particularly rapid with Tmax films. I've used a very, very weak acid stop bath which per the manufacturer should be OK. So today I'm developing film and I find my gallon of it filled with little white flakes -- hundreds of them. Filtered yes, it still works. But it stinks like ammonia.

So why do you folks like this stuff? It seems extremely uneconomical given the short life span. I'm on septic now since the move, so I try to keep the liquid waste I have to transport for disposal down to a minimum. A gallon of bad fixer a month is another issue.

[Michael R]

Just to give it context, I've been using Kodak Rapid Fixer for at least 50 years. I mix up a gallon, use it and use it with no regard to capacities. At some point after about 6 to 9 months it goes bad (little white flakes) and I dump it and make up a new batch. After my recent issues with the 'No-Promise' Kodak version and its short (NOT "indefinite") shelf life, I thought I'd try TF-5.

I mixed a gallon of it 36 days ago. I've used it a few times, with no complaints other than it not seeming particularly rapid with Tmax films. I've used a very, very weak acid stop bath which per the manufacturer should be OK. So today I'm developing film and I find my gallon of it filled with little white flakes -- hundreds of them. Filtered yes, it still works. But it stinks like ammonia.

So why do you folks like this stuff? It seems extremely uneconomical given the short life span. I'm on septic now since the move, so I try to keep the liquid waste I have to transport for disposal down to a minimum. A gallon of bad fixer a month is another issue.

There’s no major reason to use TF-5 over standard rapid fixers such as Kodak, Ilford etc. The advantages of a neutral pH rapid fixer (Ilford and Kodak are mildly acidic) such as TF-5 are longer shelf life and potentially slightly-to-somewhat faster washing but that’s about all.

When a rapid fixer smells like ammonia it is typically a sign it has become alkaline. If this has happened to your TF-5 working solution it is most likely due to developer carryover. This can happen if a stop bath doesn’t have enough acidity or is omitted. The instructions for the formulary product are somewhat misleading/incorrect (TF-5’s primary formulator didn’t write them). TF-5 is buffered to work with standard acid stop baths and there is no reason at all to weaken them.

Fundamentally all commercially available rapid fixers work the same way so nothing fancy is required. Incidentally if you are willing to try the Kodak-branded product again Sino Promise is no longer involved and the B&W chemicals have been “re-launched” by Photo Systems Inc.

[Kevin Crisp]

I'll try again. But according to the manufacturer of the TF-5, it doesn't have a particularly long shelf life unopened. Whereas the Kodak product (when manufactured correctly and not cooked in transport) is/was claimed to be indefinite and has lasted 4+ years for me in the past. The TF-5 has a definite slimy feel to it, which I associate with basses.

[Michael R]

I'll try again. But according to the manufacturer of the TF-5, it doesn't have a particularly long shelf life unopened. Whereas the Kodak product (when manufactured correctly and not cooked in transport) is/was claimed to be indefinite and has lasted 4+ years for me in the past. The TF-5 has a definite slimy feel to it, which I associate with basses.

Yeah the slippery feel (vs squeaky) combined with the ammonia odour mean it has become alkaline. The pH of TF-5 should normally be around 6.5 and it should have low odour.

All other things being equal, it would be strange for Kodak or Ilford Rapid fixers unopened to have longer shelf lives than TF-5. It should be the reverse as acidic fixers sulfurize over time even if the bottle is sealed.

[Kevin Crisp]

Well, Photographer's Formulary says the TF-5 stock solution can be stored for a year. The official Kodak information for Rapid Fixer is/was "indefinitely." Since I have three more bottles of the TF-5, I'll mix up another and use a more robust acid fixer.

[Drew Wiley]

TF5 is not odorless; it still has a tiny bit of ammonia smell, but certainly not as much as TF4. I buy about 6 months worth of these at a time (formerly TF4, now TF5), and use it for both film and paper. I wouldn't be worried at all about them being on hand a for a year before use. The problem is that they're sometimes sold through retail outlets might not turn over the inventory quickly.

I haven't experienced any "slippery" feel with either, whatever that means. Much less am I worried about any minor pH shift, which if anything, would be slightly acidic due to the stop bath prior.

The stop bath doesn't need to be strong at all, unless perhaps, people are reusing it over multiple sessions like dirty dishwater, which is certainly not my style!

[Kevin Crisp]

Picking up film out of the fixer tray was like handling film with a good coating of dishwasher soap on your hands. That's what I mean by slippery.

[paulbarden]

TF-4 is distinctly alkaline. TF-5 is just very slightly alkaline. I use TF-5 for most film and printing-out paper work, but I used TF-4 for the alt processes, like Salted Paper printing. I could easily use TF-5 for alt process work as well, as both of these formulas are far less likely to bleach the print (salted paper, Kallitype, etc) than standard Ilford Rapid fixers.

I buy both in gallon jugs of concentrate and they don't always get used within a year, and yet I have had no trouble whatsoever with either failing in any way.

[Michael R]

TF-4 is alkaline. TF-5 is neutral (actually slightly acidic, as are most neutral fixers).

They’re fine, just not necessary. The pyro stain business is nonsense. That’s just Troop/Cookbook marketing. Even Hutchings with all his over-the-top pyro verbiage used an old acidic Kodak fixer formula.

[Tin Can]

Almost no odor

Lasts long

Must use distiled water

Buy only Photographgy Formululary

They ONLY HAVE SECRET

NOT KIDDING

[esearing]

I have a batch of TF5 stock that is now about 4 years old. It still works. I tend to mix 1:9 for working and discard after 3 months, it turns gray, or it takes more than 45seconds to clear a test film. I use it for both film and paper. TF4 has its uses too for alt printing work and can yield a different color tone for salt prints and Moersch's Lobotype. I don't care for TF4 because of the fact it likes to separate. TF5 was the recommended fixer when using Pyrocat HD as the developer but I have used Ilford Rapid too with no issues. IF I walk into a camera store that sells DR supplies I always pick up fixer and FB paper and anything weird they might have.

[jnantz]

I've used both 4+5 and got rid of both of them before I really used them. too much ammonia reek for me, I went back to sprint speed fixer and plain hypo
have never had issues with longevity, capacity, stink or use with them. person I apprenticed for used kodak rapid fix for decades, it worked great.

[Michael R]

I've used both 4+5 and got rid of both of them before I really used them. too much ammonia reek for me, I went back to sprint speed fixer and plain hypo
have never had issues with longevity, capacity, stink or use with them. person I apprenticed for used kodak rapid fix for decades, it worked great.

Sprint is good. It’s too bad you don’t see it mentioned much. Maybe people associate it with schools or whatever and assume it isn’t for the serious crowd. Anyhow I’d go with that or Ilford before formulary stuff.

[Fred L]

...I tend to mix 1:9 for working...

that's pretty dilute (Formulary has 1:3 for working). is this for film, prints, or both.

[esearing]

that's pretty dilute (Formulary has 1:3 for working). is this for film, prints, or both.

both - but I always test it with a piece of film before I start.

[david@bigeleisenlaw.com]

I have a batch of TF-4 that has been sitting unused in brown jugs for at least a year, probably more. I hate to throw it away if it's still good.
Please forgive my forgetfulness. Remind me how to test the fixer.
Thanks in advance.
David

[Tin Can]

I have 1 sealed gallon TF-5 left bought in a 4 gallon buy from PF

9 years ago

My test is ongoing

The other 3 gallons have shown no change in clear color and no smell over years

and I test it every usage with actual film clear time

I discard all chems according to surface used by PF MFG

I bought 4 gallons as it was far cheaper shipping by the case

EOT means end of test

not done yet

[Doremus Scudder]

I have a batch of TF-4 that has been sitting unused in brown jugs for at least a year, probably more. I hate to throw it away if it's still good.
Please forgive my forgetfulness. Remind me how to test the fixer.
Thanks in advance.
David

If it is working-strength solution it may have gone bad. If you are referring to the concentrate, it will likely still be good.

To test do two things. First pour a bit of the fixer into a clear vessel. Look for any particulates suspended in solution or any sediment. If there is anything, the fixer has started to degrade and should be discarded. If it looks clear, do a clearing-time test on a bit of film. Working-strength rapid fixer that has not been used should clear film in 30-45 seconds (a bit longer for T-Max/Delta films). If the clearing time is longer than that, don't bother with it. Toss it and mix new fresh.

In your case, I'd mix new fresh anyway... Not worth the risk.

Doremus

[domaz]

I ran out of TF-5 so I mixed up so TF-3. It's not a bad alternative- doesn't seem to stink as much as I remember it and it can be mixed easily if you have Ammonium Thiosulfate on hand, which is a bit of a commitment to buy I know.

[Tin Can]

I forgot include my floating lids

In poly tanks with faucet about 2” above the debris

Arkay made good stuff cheap

Bought 4



2 new 5 gallon

2 smaller

[esearing]

There used to be a rapid fixer that came in a box with a bag inside that held the fixer and a nozzle for extracting (sprint maybe? mine had no labels from a dentist office). As you used up the fixer it would collapse the bag with almost no air. I had a 1/2 gallon that was still good after 10 years of no activity. Its all in how you store them and the working mix always seems to exceed recommended capacity.

[Tin Can]

I drink the cheapest Bag in a Box red wine

5 oz per day

calms the savage beast, at noon

I really like my floating lids

[Michael R]

There used to be a rapid fixer that came in a box with a bag inside that held the fixer and a nozzle for extracting (sprint maybe? mine had no labels from a dentist office). As you used up the fixer it would collapse the bag with almost no air. I had a 1/2 gallon that was still good after 10 years of no activity. Its all in how you store them and the working mix always seems to exceed recommended capacity.

You’re probably thinking of Sprint: 247745

Their fixer is great and they also make the best stop bath in the business (not that stop bath is anything to be pondered over but just saying).