My first Lens. Symmar-S 6,8 /360 in a Copal 3 shutter. What next?

[Andy F]

I bought my first 8x10 lens. Well at least I think it did. Not exactly what I was looking for and could not find much info on it but the price was right and I needed to make a quick decision on it. it is a Symmar-S 6,8 /360 in a Copal 3 shutter that goes from f5.6 to f64. My guess is that I will need to relabel the F-Stops on the front because there is no way the numbers on the font correspond to the actual lens.

I have an old lens-board that came with the camera I have (Calumet c-1) but it does not say anything on it so I do not know if it is for a copal-3. Also between the first half of the lens and the back half of the lens there is a ring that is supposed to be used to help it mount to the lens board but not sure how that works.

Is this a good lens? What is the coverage (image circle)? Is it the same thing as the Schneider APO-Symmar360 which says the coverage is 491? Also, it is Heavy! My guess is it would not work with a Kodak Masterview, an Intrepid or any other field camera, correct?

I would love to hear what people think. Also, please don't crap on me. I got it cheap. I am not going to sell it. I would love to see if I can make it work.

[Mark J]

This is a beast !
For sure it's a good lens, the sharpness is close to the modern variants.
Was the shutter replaced at some stage ?
This brochure says 70° and 491mm image circle.
https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/schneider_5.pdf
This is odd because 70° should be more than 500mm.
I am thinking eslewhere that Symmar-S's have all been quoted at 72°, I need to check on that.
What format will you be using ? ( 8x10 " ? )

[David Lindquist]

I have an older information piece on the Symmar-S, a single sheet, date code 1/77. It also shows an angle of view of 70º at f/22 and an image circle of 491 mm. One thing is it gives the "Engraved" focal length as 360 mm but the "Effective focal length" is 350.5 mm +/- 1%.

Shows it was available in the Compur 3, The electric Compur 3, the Copal 3, or barrel mount. And there is the comment "also available with Multicoating"

David

[Conrad . Marvin]

If the ring on the back of the shutter is threaded on to the shutter, (are you ready?) and if your lens board has a hole in it the same size or just a little bit larger than the thread on the shutter, then you will be able to unscrew the back part of the lens, unscrew the ring, put the shutter through the hole, screw the ring onto the shutter which will hold it onto the board, and screw the back part of the lens onto the shutter and Bobs your uncle. BUT, if the ring is not threaded and is loose over the threads, it could have been used as a spacer and you will need to get a lens flange or a retaining ring for a Copal 3 shutter. Or if the hole in the lens board is smaller or larger than the threads on the back of the shutter, you will have to enlarge the hole or use a different board.

[Mark J]

... but the "Effective focal length" is 350.5 mm +/- 1%.

Ah, that explains it. The real focal length ( = EFL ) is 350.5. It's just 'called' a 360.

[Dan Fromm]

Ah, that explains it. The real focal length ( = EFL ) is 350.5. It's just 'called' a 360.

Mark, I'm sure that, given your profession, you know that every lens has three focal lengths.

There's the engraved/marketing focal length. There's the design focal length, i.e., of a lens made precisely to the prescription. All glasses with the prescription's optical characteristics, all curvatures, elements' thicknesses and inter-element spacing to the prescription. And then there's the actual focal length of the lens as built.

For example, the 38/4.5 Biogon's marketing focal length is 38 mm. The design focal length is 38.5 mm. Measured focal lengths of a sample of 20 38/4.5 Biogons for F.135 aerial cameras ranged from 38.3 mm to 38.8 mm. Re the sample, the data came from a group of 20 ex-RAF Biogons I bought from a surplus dealer. The F.135 is basically a 4x5 roll film box camera. Its lenses mount at a fixed distance from the film plane, no easy adjustment possible. Every one of the Biogons I bought (18 in cameras, 2 loose spares) was marked with measured focal length and flange-focal distance and had a shim, thickness marked to 0.01 mm, for positioning it in its infinity position.

[Andy F]

Mark, the goal is to use it for 8x10 film. My guess is that the shutter was replaced because the widest f-stop on the barrel ( 6,8 ) does not line up with the widest f-stop on the shutter. Everything else said so far is way over my head.

Conrad, the ring is loose because the guy selling it said that I would need "this ring" for the lens board and put it on that way. I did not ask what he meant.

[Andy F]

So what do we think the image circle is about? I assume it is ok for 8x10?

Also, what do we think about the mismatch between the fstops on the lens and the fstops on the shutter? Does it matter? I can just open it up all the way and count backward, correct?

[reddesert]

It sounds like you need to understand how to mount an LF lens to a lensboard. The lensboard needs to have a hole that accepts the mount diameter (outer thread) on the rear of the shutter, and then you use either a retaining ring or a flange to fasten the lens to the board. Frequently, especially with a big lens like this, you will need to unscrew the rear cell from the shutter, mount the shutter to the board, and remount the rear cell. None of that is difficult, but you really need all the right parts.

Do you have a book like the Steve Simmons "Using the View Camera" book? I strongly recommend trying to read some well organized introductory material. An 8x10 and a 360mm Symmar is kind of throwing yourself in at the deep end, or at least the big and heavy end.

If the lens was remounted in a different shutter, the aperture plate is likely to be somewhat incorrect. You can compute what the apertures are yourself, by looking at the lens from the front, measuring the apparent diameter of the aperture (with a ruler across the front of the lens), and using f-number = focal length / apparent diameter. Measure it at each setting and make a stick on label or something.

[Vaughan]

Given the lens isn't in the correct shutter I'd recommend returning for a refund and getting one that is in the right shutter and mounted on the right lens board. Futzing around getting apertures calibrated and stutters mounted onto boards will end up being more expensive than buying a lens that's complete and ready to go.

Additionally, Symmar-S lenses are single coated unless marked "Multicoating" on the barrel. I'm not suggesting that single-coated lenses are (significantly) inferior: I use many single-coated Fujinon lenses and am happy with them, but they are reasonably cheap. If spending top dollar on modern glass I'd be wanting multicoated.

[Len Middleton]

For the shutter hole size and other related info, might want to look at:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/shutters.html

If you have not had a wonder around there, you might be surprised in what you find...

[Alan9940]

I bought this same lens brand new in the early 80's and have used it on my 8x10 Deardorff for over 40 years. Image quality wise it has never left me wanting, but in recent years I use a Fuji 360A more because...well did I mention how heavy that Schneider lens is! I ain't gettin' any younger! ��

[Andy F]

Why can't I just count from the largest opening. So if the lens in front says 6.8 and the shutter says 5.6 then the lens is just constantly one half stop off, correct. If 5.6 is really 6.8 I think it is a half stop less light. If this is true then each f-stop should be consistently 1/2 stop off. So I just make the assumption I need to add one half stop to each setting, correct? Please let me know if my thinking is flawed.

[angusparker]

Back to the original question. After a normal lens (300-360mm for 8x10), I’d look for a wide or semi-wide lens in the 150-210mm range. After that a long lens around 450mm. I wrote a blog post on my suggested lens sets for 8x10 here: https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/11/good-lenses-for-an-8x10-view-camera

[reddesert]

Why can't I just count from the largest opening. So if the lens in front says 6.8 and the shutter says 5.6 then the lens is just constantly one half stop off, correct. If 5.6 is really 6.8 I think it is a half stop less light. If this is true then each f-stop should be consistently 1/2 stop off. So I just make the assumption I need to add one half stop to each setting, correct? Please let me know if my thinking is flawed.

Because the maximum aperture of a lens is limited by the lens design, not necessarily by the mechanical opening of the shutter's aperture. The shutter's aperture lever may have travel beyond what the lens can use, or there may be mechanical stops on the lever's travel that are appropriate for the previous lens and not yours. You don't know whether your lens now, is at its widest f-stop when the aperture is as far as the lever can move. Just measure it from the from to figure out what the aperture corresponds to. It's not hard to get an approximate number. You need the apparent diameter as seen through the front lens cell, not the mechanical diameter of the aperture (different lens designs also magnify the aperture by different amounts).

[Mark J]

I think it's good advice to try & measure the entrance pupil for full aperture. Once you know that, you have the starting aperture and know that each stop on the aperture scale will be half as much light, that's the way they are built. If the aperture lever moves from 5,6 to 64 , then there are no 'mechanical stops on the lever's travel'. The case where they would be , is probably on the original shutter for the 360/6.8
ps. If as likely, this lens is actually 350.5mm EFL, then do the f/number calc for that focal length ( eg. for f/6.8 you expect 51.5mm )

I think Andy is more or less correct IF this 5.6 shutter opens to near the full available aperture ( but that's what needs checking )

[neil poulsen]

So what do we think the image circle is about? I assume it is ok for 8x10?

Also, what do we think about the mismatch between the fstops on the lens and the fstops on the shutter? Does it matter? I can just open it up all the way and count backward, correct?

I had this lens. To say it's heavy is putting it lightly. I used to call it my coffee table. (I think that it might actually work for that.) I even tried to backpack with this lens. By the way, did you forget HUGE? The filter size on this lens is upwards of 120mm, if one can even afford a filter of that size. (I recommend Schneider B+W filters from B&H. :)) And, good luck finding a compendium lens hood that will work with this lens. (Oh well, a little flare never hurts.)

As for the mismatch between the f-stops on the lens and shutter, check with S.K. Grimes. They might have an aperture scale ready-made for your shutter.

All that said, it should produce good results.

I jumped from this lens to the f8 Scheider-Dagor 14" lens (which I didn't care for), and then to a 355mm G-Claron. These lenses are much more convenient.

[tgtaylor]

I've had this lens for 810 format for 20 or more years now and had SK Grimes build a 120mm to 95mm step down ring ($150) so that I could use all of my 100mm rectangular filters with the lens in my Cokin Z-Pro holder. Granted $150 is a lot for a step-down ring but that is a lot cheaper than buying 120mm filters.

[Andy F]

So right now this is a little bit beyond my expertise. I tried to put it on a lens board. I tightened it with my hands and I could not get it to work. Right now the lens is just flopping around on the board.
I may drive up to SK Grimes to see what they think. How patient would they be with a newbie? Also, how expensive do you think it would be to get this thing to work. I will send pictures.

[Roger Thoms]

Sounds like you may be missing the spacer ring, check out this link. https://skgrimes.com/product/retaining-ring-copal-3/ . I also add that’s it worth checking with SK Grimes on the aperture scale, while they can certainly engrave one for you they may also have one in stock. I recently got a genuine Copal aperture scale from them for a Copal 1/ Fuji 250mm f6.7. You can also check eBay.

Roger

[Tin Can]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273021611491?itmmeta=01HPMBXFFC9XZC3ZN6MPXQEYB1&hash=item3f915b2de3:g:rXcAAOSwOSpe-rjc

[Andy F]

Thank you Tin Can,

I have a retaining ring I just don't know what is going on with it. I might need a larger ring or I might need to twist the back and front together harder so it locks down. Or I might not understand how the retaining ring works. I put a video of it below. Hopefully it uploaded it correctly.
-Andrew

Video

https://youtube.com/shorts/lF2Bz806LDI

[Roger Thoms]

Andy, the video is private, I can’t view it.

Roger

[Andy F]

Oops!


It should be public now.


https://youtube.com/shorts/lF2Bz806LDI

[Dan Fromm]

Um, er, ah, if I understand these things correctly the lens board goes between the rear of the shutter and the retaining ring, not behind the ring. The ring's flange should butt on the board.