Just bought a Fujinon 135/5.6 W ( first type )

[Mark J]

I though I'd launch a thread about this lens, as it seems like a bargain, and could be of interest to others shooting 5x7" and 4x5".
I've only just paid for the lens on EBay, but will report back periodically once I've received it and started using it.
I particularly want to see how it performs on 5x7" , and will try to do a couple of test shots to illustrate centre and corner performance.

Although I have a few more modern lenses, I have been looking at this one and checking EBay for a while, because it seems particularly useful.
Its plus points are :
Lightweight for carrying/hiking, Seiko 0 shutter
Pretty cheap
Works as a wide on 5x7" ( 28mm equiv ) with a small amount of movement
Works as a wide-standard ( 38mm equiv ) on 4x5" with lots of movement

There are always a few of these on EBay, but most or all of them have problems ( fungus/haze) . This one seemed to be among the cleanest I'd found so far, the shutter looks lightly used, and it was less than $200 including postage.

Obviously there are later ones with Copal shutters, but the NW and the CM-W don't cover 5x7" (at least on paper they don't ).
Actually, there is one currently for sale of the earlier type that does have a Copal shutter , but there is a comment about 'slight haze in the lens' which made me avoid it.

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[paulbarden]

Haze is easily removed, since it’s deposited on the air spaced glass surfaces. Access to those surfaces is usually as simple as unscrewing the components. A bit of haze in a lens shouldn’t be a deterrent.

[Kevin Crisp]

I always look very carefully at the ad, and if there is any rim damage that would prevent me from disassembling it front or back (normally easy with the SK Grimes wrench) I avoid it. Even if the seller says "it takes a filter." Some lenses just seem to develop haze and normally you can take care of that in 15 minutes or less.

Except for rare situations where multicoating really would make a difference, I've been pleased with mine.

[ic-racer]

Nice lens. I have 4 or 5 Fujinon with the inside lettering like that. Though, I don't have the 135mm. Let us know how it works out. I suspect it will be a fantastic performer.

"Haze" either wipes off easily or is permanent. No way to tell beforehand.

[paulbarden]

Nice lens. I have 4 or 5 Fujinon with the inside lettering like that. Though, I don't have the 135mm. Let us know how it works out. I suspect it will be a fantastic performer.

"Haze" either wipes off easily or is permanent. No way to tell beforehand.

Permanent haze is very, very rare, in my experience.

[Mark J]

I didn't want to take the risk, when buying from Japan. It may be rarely serious but I see 'haze' as a catch-all which might include some coating deterioration.
Plus I didn't want to be opening up either the front or the rear group if it was internal to those.
The Copal-shutter one is still out there.

[Dan Fromm]

It may be rarely serious but I see 'haze' as a catch-all which might include some coating deterioration.

Wise. I once bought a late WW-II vintage coated Aviar that had haze I couldn't clean off. Close examination found that the front glass had many many tiny pits.

[Alan9940]

I have this version and, also, the slightly later NW version. Personally, I found the earlier version to exhibit corners that were too soft for my taste; and, this was on 4x5. In my experience, the later NW version is not that much larger (both in a 0-size shutter) with significantly better corner performance. The earlier one is single coated, while the later has EBC coating. Not that I care one way or the other about that...just mentioning it.

[AJ Edmondson]

I have one of these (in Seiko shutter) which was in beautiful condition. I sent it off to Carol Flutot (just the shutter) for a CLA and it has been my favorite lens for over ten years... to the extent that I seldom use any other lens and it stays mounted on my Wista 45SP. The only lens which I have found that was equal in performance was a 165mm f6.8 Schneider Angulon. For me there is something about these single-coated lenses that is almost magical.
Joel

[willwilson]

This my primary 4x5 lens. I have had 2 copies and now shoot with a newer version with the lettering on the outside and larger front filter ring.

It may be in my head but I like the newer version better. That said I have taken several hundred photos with the older single coated inside letter version.

It's the perfect focal length for me 90% of the time and it's decent macro lens too. Small, light, hard to beat.

[Mark J]

Thanks.
Sounds like the tests will be all-important.
I need a lens that's fairly sharp for my work, I'll accept that it's not quite as contrasty, but if it's not sharp in the corners of 4x5" , that's a worry. I assume you mean it doesn't sharpen up at eg. f/22, Alan ?

[ic-racer]

Wise. I once bought a late WW-II vintage coated Aviar that had haze I couldn't clean off. Close examination found that the front glass had many many tiny pits.

Exactly, 'haze' that won't wipe off is coating damage; permanent.

I guess it depends on where one is getting lenses. Since I have about 60 lenses, these days I usually only buy the cheapest stuff needing repair at the lowest price, so almost all have been disassembled and 'cleaned' already. In this case it is rare to find 'haze' that can be removed. Usually, only a case where 'they' could not figure out how to get a lens group apart, etc.

[monochromeFan]

I didn't want to take the risk, when buying from Japan. It may be rarely serious but I see 'haze' as a catch-all which might include some coating deterioration.
Plus I didn't want to be opening up either the front or the rear group if it was internal to those.
The Copal-shutter one is still out there.

ALot of sellers mention "haze" in an item description, normally it also goes with phrases like "minor scuffing on glass surface", so oftentimes "haze" is actually "scuffed so bad it lost the coatings"

[Alan9940]

Thanks.
Sounds like the tests will be all-important.
I need a lens that's fairly sharp for my work, I'll accept that it's not quite as contrasty, but if it's not sharp in the corners of 4x5" , that's a worry. I assume you mean it doesn't sharpen up at eg. f/22, Alan ?

On my copy, f/16, f/22, in that range. Please understand that when I say "it's soft in the corners" I'm not talking ridiculously mussy. Rather, the kind of softness one sees in many wide angle lenses; for example, the Schneider 90mm Angulon.

[Mark J]

OK thanks. I may have the lens by the end of the week.

[Joseph Kashi]

I ended up buying from Japan multiple copies of the original Fujinon 135 W with inside-writing.

One is mounted on, and calibrated to, a 4x5 press camera. The other two are used as compact wide-angles lenses for my lightest 5x7 outfits.

Unlike the later outside-writing NW and CM-W versions, the original 135 W covers 5x7 adequately but without much movement. They are excellent lenses, comparable in my personal test to my copies of later multicoated Fujinon NW 125mm and 150mm NW models. I would venture that the original 135 W is among the better choices for a 135mm lens on 5x7, if you like that wide-angle focal length.

I have not had any problems buying perhaps 20 or more LF lenses from Japan over the years through *Bay, although I definitely read the fine print very carefully, messaging for clarification if needed, before hitting the "buy" button. But, then, I am now an attorney, after all. <GRIN>

[Mark J]

Thanks, did you see sample variation ?
There aren't many good choices for a normal 'wide' lens for 5x7" , hence my interest in this one. I have the 150 Super Symmar HM, that's excellent but quite big.

[Vaughan]

I ended up buying from Japan multiple copies of the original Fujinon 135 W with inside-writing.

One is mounted on, and calibrated to, a 4x5 press camera...

Was it listed recently? I may have seen that... mounted on a Graphic board, the shutter release lever had a small pin fitted into it to connect to mechanisms on the camera body.

Most modern 90mm f8 lenses cover around 218mm (or 230mm for f5.6 versions) which makes for cheap ultra-wide on 5x7. The original writing-on-front (but EBC multicoated) Fujinon SWD 75mm f5.6 lens also covers 5x7 when well stopped down for an ultra-ultra wide view.

[Joseph Kashi]

Thanks, did you see sample variation ?
There aren't many good choices for a normal 'wide' lens for 5x7" , hence my interest in this one. I have the 150 Super Symmar HM, that's excellent but quite big.

I did not see perceptible sample variation on the 3 Fujinon 135 W lenses. I have some other sets of Fujinon NW lenses, 125/5.6 and 150/5.6 and I did not notice evident sample variation in those either. All were crisp and sharp, and quite close to each other. I might mention that the 135 W lenses are quite small. IIRC, the 135 W takes a quite small filter, 46mm, in a Seiko or Copal 0.

[Joseph Kashi]

Was it listed recently? I may have seen that... mounted on a Graphic board, the shutter release lever had a small pin fitted into it to connect to mechanisms on the camera body.

Most modern 90mm f8 lenses cover around 218mm (or 230mm for f5.6 versions) which makes for cheap ultra-wide on 5x7. The original writing-on-front (but EBC multicoated) Fujinon SWD 75mm f5.6 lens also covers 5x7 when well stopped down for an ultra-ultra wide view.

Not recent listings - I bought these 135 W lenses over time a few years ago. I have the 75/8 SW for 4x5 and it covers well. I never considered using a 75SWD on 5x7 as I found the 90/5.6 SWD to be rather large for my taste and put it in the reserve drawer some years ago.

It would seem that a 75 SWD might lose a few mm in each corner. How has your experience been with this lens on 5x7 ?

[Vaughan]

It would seem that a 75 SWD might lose a few mm in each corner. How has your experience been with this lens on 5x7 ?

The older version has a large image, and stopped down to f32-f45 it covers but the lens really needs to be carefully centred. The significant cos4 cos^3 (theta) cos^N vignetting (due to the short focal length) distracts from the corners giving it a particular look that I really like. I'd not use this lens on 5x7 for colour transparency film without a centre filter, but I only use b+w.

https://www.reddit.com/r/largeformat/comments/17sswy1/ryde_wharf_5x7_bw/

I've used front tilt to lay the focus onto the ground, so the lens has enough coverage for a bit of scheimpflug. This image has had a bit of negative vignette in post to lighten the corners slightly, but no dodge or burn. The neg is embarrassingly dirty, it fell on the floor while drying. Despite that (and some diffraction from being almost fully stopped-down) the lens shows excellent sharpness across the frame.

[Mark J]

It's actually cos^3(theta) vignetting on a Super-Angulon type like the SWD ...... just to be pedantic...

[Joseph Kashi]

The older version has a large image, and stopped down to f32-f45 it covers but the lens really needs to be carefully centred. The significant cos4 vignetting (due to the short focal length) distracts from the corners giving it a particular look that I really like. I'd not use this lens on 5x7 for colour transparency film without a centre filter, but I only use b+w.

https://www.reddit.com/r/largeformat/comments/17sswy1/ryde_wharf_5x7_bw/

I've used front tilt to lay the focus onto the ground, so the lens has enough coverage for a bit of scheimpflug. This image has had a bit of negative vignette in post to lighten the corners a bit, but no dodge or burn. The neg is embarrassingly dirty, it fell on the floor while drying. Despite that (and diffraction from being almost fully stopped-down) the lens shows excellent sharpness across the frame.

Thank you for the information. I will try it sometime if I ever run across a 75 SWD. I like my little 75 /8 SW on 4x5.

[Vaughan]

It's actually cos^3(theta) vignetting on a Super-Angulon type like the SWD ...... just to be pedantic...

Thanks, I appreciate the correction. (I will update the original post.)

[Mark J]

Yes, good. it's commonly known by ( informed ) photographers that there's a cos^4(θ) law.
However this is not universal.

Luckily, the actuality is fairly simple, in that lenses tend to fall into three categories -

cos^4(θ) fall-off : All triplets, Tessars, Dialytes, plasmats, Celors, WF Ektar types, Dagors, Angulons

cos^3(θ) fall-off : All Super-Angulons, Grandagons, Biogons, SW and SWD forms.

cos^2(θ) fall-off ( though a little more variable ) : most retrofocus 35mm and MF lenses for reflex cameras.

[Mark J]

Well i received the lens about 30mins ago.
This is probably a record transit time from Japan !

Optically it looks great, as in the picture above. The lenses are very clean. The seller did declare some faint surface (cleaning) marking somewhere, using a bright white LED in the EBay 'movie' . This is really faint, as I hoped, barely visible in bright sunlight, so i have no concerns with that.

The (Seiko) shutter is clean, feels crisp and very little used. Controls are slightly stiff.
The shutter action is a little odd, so this is where I'd value some advice.
When I cock and then trip the shutter for an exposure, there is a delay. The cocking lever returns to its starting position, then there is a short delay of about 1/4 sec before the shutter opens and closes.
This is different to the Seiko I have on a recently-purchased 105mm f/8 SW.
I'd like to know if this is normal, or if it indicates that it definitely needs servicing.

[John Layton]

Mark, while I'm not familiar with this lens (shutter)...does it have a lever to switch the flash sync. from "X" to "M" or something similar? If so, check its position. The "M" setting will cause a slight delay in shutter opening, while the "X" will give a relatively instant response.

If this lever is present and happens to be set on "M," this will cause a slight delay in the actual tripping of the shutter...to allow for a flashbulb to reach its desirable near-peak-output "curve" to allow for maximum lighting efficiency. Back in the old days of press photographers running about with their 4x5 Speed Graphics and the like...it was not uncommon for the employment of a large "potato-masher" flash unit, using large "press" flashbulbs - and because many of these cameras were equipped with lenses in the 135mm (or close) focal length, its not too uncommon for such lenses of this earlier era to be equipped with "M-X" shutters.

There were also shutters with more than one "flashbulb" setting - with different amounts of delay depending on whatever class of bulb was being used.

With electronic flash units...seeing as how they reach peak intensity very quickly, no such delay is necessary and thus the "X" setting.

At any rate...do check for the presence of this lever and see where its set. If there is no such lever, or if the lever is set to "X," then your shutter may be in need of a cleaning.

[Mark J]

You're dead right, John.
With the level on 'X' it fires immediately ... genius !
What a clever little tweak.

Well, I'll be fitting up the lens to a '0' board this evening, ready to do some test photos.

[Mark J]

Ready...
Snow tomorrow but likely no decent light...and I'm working ... We'll see...

https://i.ibb.co/GJ6V9cF/Fuji135-Gand-small.jpg (https://ibb.co/vBFJhZD)

[Steve Goldstein]

It seems to me that a quarter of a second (250ms) is rather long for an M-sync delay. I always thought flash bulbs reached their peak output in 15-25ms. But unless you’re using flashbulbs this won’t matter, just leave it on X and carry on.

[Vaughan]

A tip with the Seiko shutters, particularly the 0: do NOT try to open the blades with the shutter uncocked, and never apply much force. The opening lever (dunno its proper name) has a small pin riveted to the end. If the shutter is not cocked the blades won't open and the force applied to the lever will weaken the pin rivet joint and allow the pin to move. When this happens the shutter blades won't open fully when the lever is actuated. This will encourage more force to be applied which will bend the lever itself.

It's not a difficult job to open the shutter and tighten the rivet joint on the pin and straighten the lever, but the rivet joint is small and it can fail. I have one shutter that has the pin epoxied to the lever.

[Vaughan]

cos^4(θ) fall-off... cos^3(θ) fall-off... cos^2(θ) fall-off...

Thanks Mark, I will henceforth refer to cos^N falloff. :)

[Mark J]

Ha ! That's one way of being correct.

In the meantime a couple of observations .
I read this discussion a couple of days ago :
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?167393-Identifying-Fujinon-lenses&highlight=identifying+fujinon
Rawitz's post #10 did concern me, and that may well be the way it was with the earlier lenses. It was certainly more common in the '50's to refer to coverage more generously, as the illumination circle. I thought that would have fallen by the wayside by the late 60's or early 70's. In the worst case, then, it would just give me an excuse to buy an 'NW' ....

However I took the camera and lens ( & tripod ) out on the back porch today and eyeballed the scene ( with buildings and trees ) under the cloth , for a while, and was encouraged. With the front standard set up carefully to be centred, the corner illumination looks OK, it's not dying a sudden death in the corners of 5x7"
At f/5.6 there's some softness from half way out, but it holds up OK almost to the corners. It looks a little better and easier to focus than the SW 105 f/8 that i recently bought.
At f/11 you can see it's a lot sharper most of the way out.
So, I'm looking forward to taking some test shots, and I might get chance tomorrow, we have sun forecast.

[reddesert]

It seems to me that a quarter of a second (250ms) is rather long for an M-sync delay. I always thought flash bulbs reached their peak output in 15-25ms. But unless you’re using flashbulbs this won’t matter, just leave it on X and carry on.

Yes, but sometimes the M sync delay mechanism is sticky. It's a little weird that it manages to move but so slowly as to take a 1/4 second. I have had lenses where it was just stuck, so the shutter appeared non functional on M, but set it to X and it fired normally. It's sort of like the stuck Self Timer of Doom on older cameras, but bypassable by switching to X.

[Mark J]

Maybe so. It might be 1/5th sec, but not 1/40th.

I just got two good exposures of trees in the sun yesterday and developed.
Exposures look about right , at least on 1/8th & 1/4.
I did one at f/ 11-16 and one at f/22
At 11-16 it's sharp over 4x5" but turns soft pretty quickly after that.
At f/22 it's sharp almost to the corners of 5x7" , on the top corners it is going at about 10mm from the corner.
Oddly ( despite setting the front up carefully to be centred to the format ) the lower corners look sharp, although there is foreground grass coming towards the camera here - maybe the field curvature is nulled.
Probably worth another shot later.

When I get chance I'll show some small pics either printed or digi scanned/reversed.