Pigment Grinding

[bob carnie]

Pigment Grinding, I am looking for sources in Canada to grind scale, I have been collaborating on a project with a Metal Smith. We are making BW prints using scale from his forge, I would like to grind it into a finer form so when its laid down with exposure its not so gritty (looks cool) but we want to push this envelope a bit further. Any sources for grinding or suggestions on machines to purchase that do not break the bank would be appreciated. 🇨🇦

[Tin Can]

My first job was QC using

https://www.google.com/search?q=lapmaster+12&sca_esv=598856882&rlz=1C1RXMK_enUS1059US1067&sxsrf=ACQVn0-IJkuQSpcD-2Qz6kZYg-52Pz6oPQ%3A1705429875234&ei=c8umZZP1DZO2ptQPicKS-Ao&oq=lapmaster+lapping+machine&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGWxhcG1hc3RlciBsYXBwaW5nIG1hY2hpbmUqAggCMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADMgoQABhHGNYEGLADSJUgUABYAHABeAGQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQHIAQDiAwQYACBBiAYBkAYI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#:~:text=The%20Lapmaster%20Model%2012%20is%20a%20bench%2Dmounted%20lapping%20and%20polishing%20machine.%20It%20has%20a%20rigid%2C%20lightweight%2C%20cast%20aluminum%20base%20and%20a%20%22ring%20lapper%22%20configuration.%20The%20machine%20is%20designed%20for%20fine%20finishing%20surfaces%20to%20achieve%20high%20levels%20of%20flatness%20and%20smoothness.%C2%A0

You want the slurry at your rind

I have been buying VEVOR equipment from China and they delver quality machines

Milwaukie, WI has it somewhere

Also stone tumblers

[Graham Patterson]

How fine, and what sort of weight? Unless the exact chemistry is an issue, you probably want tungsten carbide grinding elements (cost and hardness). Getting down to < 100 microns is going to be more difficult, particularly if you are looking for <15 microns and more than a few grams.

I used to do analyses for a retired smith who was doing an archaeology PHD on the early iron to finish work around the world - Guy called David Sims, I think.

Ask the U Toronto Geology department for current suggestions (it's been 20 years since I was grinding rocks in the UK). They may even be able to do it for a fee.

[Michael R]

My best guess is Drew has a seven-figure machine for just this. It can grind particles so small you have to assume they are there. Hopefully he can lend it to you.

[Graham Patterson]

Thinking a bit more about this: Scale from backsmithing is mostly iron oxides, as I remember. I suspect it will just rust and clump at some point and not get any finer. True iron powders are usually chemically processed. The slag from earlier processing steps will probably be iron silicates, which would grind better. So the chemistry would be important.

When we were reducing rocks to <20 microns we would use a micronising mill with acetone as the carrier liquid. The acetone is less viscous than water, won't oxidize minerals, and is quick to evaporate in a fume hood under an infrared lamp.

I'm intrigued to know what the result looks like.

[Drew Wiley]

Hi, Michael - yes, I was quite involved in products from the finest pigment grinder in the world, to the point of practical transparency. But that was a division of what was also the biggest coatings mfg in the world with a staggering R&D budget; and those were patented multi-million dollar grinding machines. But they have little interest in any graphics trade due to far more lucrative applications, including them being the largest maker of auto paint in the world. Last spring I stumbled onto a crashed low-rider vehicle wildly coated with multiple layers of translucent finish. Some redneck kids had towed it back into the woods for AK47 target practice, and there were iridescent spalls everywhere. It was one of the most psychedelic looking things I've ever photographed, and I naturally printed it on a true high gloss medium - Fujiflex Supergloss. I was never involved with auto finishes myself, but their marine and architectural products.

But there was another, smaller, Euro company trying to achieve that kind of grind for press and graphics applications; but they were having problems coming up with a true process set. EU enviro regulations stopped them.

A third major corporation has achieved pre-dispersed colorants of very high consistency and industrial volume, finer ground than anything art store or DIY feasible, but not effectively transparent. And I did work out a very good CMYK set from them which could be used as a superior carbon printing set. But I stopped at that point. Too many projects already.

Inkjet printers of course need extremely fine colorants; but they're not quite down to the nano size or even permanence of what I have in mind. There are proven technological solutions, but getting past the hurdles of toxicity and enviro regulations limits any serious development. Certain nasty things like cadmium are allowed in low-volume artist pigment; but those aren't really all that fine. What I had in mind was the transparency of dyes in true nano-pigment fashion. But I don't think that breakthrough will happen within my lifetime, at least in terms of balanced process colors; psycho or psyche colors, yes - they're already here.

[Michael R]

I knew it.

So can you help Bob out?

[Drew Wiley]

I've already chatted with him in the past. There is a Canadian branch of the second company I mentioned. Typically, custom orders are measured in metric tons. And the setup charge alone, well ... I know Bob likes to make big prints, but enough pigment to cover two whole Canadian provinces with Hippie dust?

[interneg]

Have you tried Kama Pigments in Montreal?

[bob carnie]

Have you tried Kama Pigments in Montreal?

do they do custom grinding for people?

[interneg]

do they do custom grinding for people?

Ask them - if they don't, it's highly likely that they'll know someone/ somewhere that will.

[Tin Can]

Also scour eBay

They sell anything

Try a bag of rust scale