Seeking Grainy Paper Negative Developer

[LFLarry]

I am using silver gelatin fiber paper as negatives in my view camera and making contact prints.

It is going very well, but I want a developer to produce much more grain in the paper negative because I am attempting to make some soft focus Pictorialist style prints. I want the grain to show up in my contact prints. I have been using Ilford Multigrade and Dektol as my developers so far, but they don't have the grain I am seeking.

I thought I would come to the community here for advice and suggestions.

Thank you, and happy new year.

Larry

[Michael R]

Not sure how easy that will be. Paper emulsions are slow and fine grained and even if they weren’t you’re making contact prints.

[LFLarry]

Yep... I get it... that is why I am hoping someone here knows more than me... I was thinking possibly Rodinal, but I dont have any on hand to run a test. Let's see if others can come up with something.


Not sure how easy that will be. Paper emulsions are slow and fine grained and even if they weren’t you’re making contact prints.

[Greg]

Tried for the same effect years ago to try to match Bromoil prints.
Notes tell me that I used the following papers:
Kodak Special PX-2836 paper
HALOID 812KF paper
and MMP Projection Paper
All with D-19. Didn't mark down the dilutions that I tried. Wasn't at all successful. I did greatly vary the temperatures of the stop bath, fix, and wash solutions. Only one paper came close and looked promising at first, but turned out to be the reticulation of the paper's grain... Actually was quite interesting but not what I was after. In retrospect I think that the paper's grain was far too fine to work.

[paulbarden]

Not sure how easy that will be. Paper emulsions are slow and fine grained and even if they weren’t you’re making contact prints.

I don't think it's possible, and Rodinal isn't going to help at all. Perhaps you can achieve a similar effect by making a transparency that has a uniform coarse grain pattern and sandwiching it between the paper neg and the paper you're printing it on.

[jim_jm]

One option is to try Lith printing. You'll definitely be able to achieve a grittier look, depending on the developer dilution, age and temperature. Print color can be manipulated with most toners after development.
Never tried it with paper negatives, though. Only regular film and glass negatives.
I use Foma paper, but I understand that Arista FB and some Ilford fiber papers are also suitable for Lith. You just need to buy Lith developer and be prepared for long exposures (2 - 4 stops over) and long development times.

245561

[LFLarry]

This is a really good idea. I did not think of that in this context. I have Lith printed before and I do recall some really awesome gritty type of look, so this very well may be a great path for me. Thank you!



One option is to try Lith printing. You'll definitely be able to achieve a grittier look, depending on the developer dilution, age and temperature. Print color can be manipulated with most toners after development.
Never tried it with paper negatives, though. Only regular film and glass negatives.
I use Foma paper, but I understand that Arista FB and some Ilford fiber papers are also suitable for Lith. You just need to buy Lith developer and be prepared for long exposures (2 - 4 stops over) and long development times.

245561

[LabRat]

Use the fastest, shortest printing time paper (like rapid RC types) as they have the largest grain, but as mentioned, paper grain is usually very fine... Lith type of developers are maximum energy and should bulk up the grain... And textured screens as mentioned can be made that are fogged with clear spots for "grain" patterns could be made from a large piece of sheet film by exposure methods...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[LFLarry]

Paul, the coarse grain on a transparency is a great idea. I had not thought of that. Maybe I could get a friend of mine with an inkjet printer to print a couple on Pictorico transparency film and try that. He makes digital negatives all the time, so I am sure he could do that for me.



I don't think it's possible, and Rodinal isn't going to help at all. Perhaps you can achieve a similar effect by making a transparency that has a uniform coarse grain pattern and sandwiching it between the paper neg and the paper you're printing it on.

[LFLarry]

Steve, your idea for making textured screens that are fogged with clear spots for "grain" patterns intrigues me. I am stumped on how to do this. Any ideas or pointers that I can try for this approach?



Use the fastest, shortest printing time paper (like rapid RC types) as they have the largest grain, but as mentioned, paper grain is usually very fine... Lith type of developers are maximum energy and should bulk up the grain... And textured screens as mentioned can be made that are fogged with clear spots for "grain" patterns could be made from a large piece of sheet film by exposure methods...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

[monochromeFan]

Steve, your idea for making textured screens that are fogged with clear spots for "grain" patterns intrigues me. I am stumped on how to do this. Any ideas or pointers that I can try for this approach?

Its a William Mortensen trick.. one of many that he came up with to create unique looks, and an ability to make a photograph look like an etching or wood cut print.

Often times told he started the practice with a simple piece of mesh from a window screen.

[jnantz]

How big are your prints going to be ? If u aren’t adverse to the modern age you can make a screen with a laser printer. when you make it and print it (no matter how you do it ) it has to be almost invisible on your transparency and you're going to have to print it with high contrast sandwiched between your receiving print and your negative (as already mentioned). instead of contact printing if you have a reflective enlarger it's one less thing to print through and might come out better.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?114099-enlarged-paper-negatives

[Tin Can]

defocus

[Tin Can]

Why not coat real Art Paper

Torn, never cut

https://www.jerrysartarama.com/bfk-rives-printmaking-papers-22x30in-250gsm-pack-of-25-sheets-white-16642d?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAzJOtBhALEiwAtwj8ttNkV-ovaJPKpN7z2ntOvk_tm-RD9c5UZIpb6R4UPm2uE96hgDtVDhoCo2kQAvD_BwE

[xkaes]

Steve, your idea for making textured screens that are fogged with clear spots for "grain" patterns intrigues me. I am stumped on how to do this. Any ideas or pointers that I can try for this approach?

There are LOTS of textured screen for sale -- with all sorts of styles; grain, texture, leather, wood, whatever you want. Do an EBAY search for "negative texture screens". They are cheap, cheap, cheap. You can make them yourself -- if you need to.

[LFLarry]

The old ways are always so much more fun and interesting vs. doing this type of stuff on a computer...



Its a William Mortensen trick.. one of many that he came up with to create unique looks, and an ability to make a photograph look like an etching or wood cut print.

Often times told he started the practice with a simple piece of mesh from a window screen.

[LFLarry]

I am making 8x10 contact prints.

I don't have an inkjet printer or anything like that, but I have a friend who lives nearby that does. He makes digital negatives all the time and then comes to my darkroom to print.

These ideas are good and should open up several new options for me.

Thank you




How big are your prints going to be ? If u aren’t adverse to the modern age you can make a screen with a laser printer. when you make it and print it (no matter how you do it ) it has to be almost invisible on your transparency and you're going to have to print it with high contrast sandwiched between your receiving print and your negative (as already mentioned). instead of contact printing if you have a reflective enlarger it's one less thing to print through and might come out better.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?114099-enlarged-paper-negatives

[LFLarry]

I assume you are referring to coating watercolor/art paper with a liquid emulsion? If not, let me know what you are thinking.



Why not coat real Art Paper


Torn, never cut

https://www.jerrysartarama.com/bfk-rives-printmaking-papers-22x30in-250gsm-pack-of-25-sheets-white-16642d?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAzJOtBhALEiwAtwj8ttNkV-ovaJPKpN7z2ntOvk_tm-RD9c5UZIpb6R4UPm2uE96hgDtVDhoCo2kQAvD_BwE

[LFLarry]

Defocus what?

I am making 8x10 paper negs in the camera and then contact printing with a regular light above the workbench.

What are you referring to?



defocus

[LFLarry]

I will give the ebay search a try. Thanks for the idea.



There are LOTS of textured screen for sale -- with all sorts of styles; grain, texture, leather, wood, whatever you want. Do an EBAY search for "negative texture screens". They are cheap, cheap, cheap. You can make them yourself -- if you need to.

[xkaes]

Since you are making contact prints, you would have to take a picture of a texture screen and sandwich it -- but if you are exposing under an enlarger, you could put the screen in the enlarger -- focused with a lens -- for the exposure.

[LFLarry]

Thank you for the help. I will give this a try.



Since you are making contact prints, you would have to take a picture of a texture screen and sandwich it -- but if you are exposing under an enlarger, you could put the screen in the enlarger -- focused with a lens -- for the exposure.

[Doremus Scudder]

Yep, the grain is baked-in to the paper. Developer won't make much of a difference, likely no visible difference, in grain.

You can contact print using Pt/Pd and get a bit of grainy look as well (comes from the process). Lith printing may give you a look you like too.

Doremus

[ic-racer]

As mentioned, lith printing makes a grainy print. Here are two examples.

245569
245570

[xkaes]

245572

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375177460775 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/375177460775)

[LFLarry]

I saw that, but since it is 35mm and I do 8x10 contact printing only, I am not sure how I could use this. I don't have an enlarger. Am I overlooking something?



245572

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375177460775 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/375177460775)

[LFLarry]

Really nice!! I will be trying this. I just ordered some Arista Lith Dev.



As mentioned, lith printing makes a grainy print. Here are two examples.

245569
245570

[xkaes]

I saw that, but since it is 35mm and I do 8x10 contact printing only, I am not sure how I could use this. I don't have an enlarger. Am I overlooking something?

You could create an 8x10 texture screen by exposing 8x10 film to a 35mm texture screen -- with a macro lens -- or take an 8x10 picture of some beach sand (or any texture) using lith film -- you can vary the size of the texture by moving closer (small vs large).

245580

https://www.123rf.com/photo_31367810_beach-sand-texture-macro.html

[jnantz]

Since you are making contact prints, you would have to take a picture of a texture screen and sandwich it -- but if you are exposing under an enlarger, you could put the screen in the enlarger -- focused with a lens -- for the exposure.

the problem with putting it in an enlarger is that it will enlarge the grain so it might seem be more obtrusive ( un natural ) compared to the subject of the print. contact printing on the paper always seems to be tight and look better ( small grain vs medicine ball sized grain )

[xkaes]

Of course it depends on the size of the grain in the texture screen -- that varies a lot. Same thing if you take a picture of beach sand with lith film. The higher your magnification, the larger the grain will be. You have decide what size grain you want -- you probably want several sizes to choose from -- but that's up to you.

[esearing]

Question - if a screen texture is used when making the positive, could it be on outside of the the contact emulsions so it blocks light on the back of the paper from the light source? Positive < Negative < screen < Light source.

And just another weird thought - What if your light source was at an angle to your contact print - say 45 degrees left for 1/2 exposure then 45 degrees right for 1/2 exposure. Is there enough texture in the grains and paper to translate into a textured positive?

[Michael R]

Question - if a screen texture is used when making the positive, could it be on outside of the the contact emulsions so it blocks light on the back of the paper from the light source? Positive < Negative < screen < Light source.

I think the issue there would be that the texture would come out fuzzy.

[jnantz]

I think the issue there would be that the texture would come out fuzzy.

exactly, unless in direct contact with the paper or film it is being received on, it will be fuzzy ..
LF Larry: You should probably photograph something in camera as part of a double exposure instead of doing it in the printing stage ... you'll see your grain better

[xkaes]

Or use an enlarger as the light source with a texture screen focused on the paper.

[Dan Dozer]

Rather than trying to get the grain in your paper negatives, have you considered trying Bromoil printing? You can have as much or as little amount of grain as you want and Bromoil prints were one of the methods early pictorialists used.

[Corran]

Two thoughts. First, ART 300 paper has a beautiful texture that could be somewhat what you are looking for. I use it for heavily textured images like rock and sand and love it.

Secondly, someone already mentioned lith printing, but something I've been experimenting with is bleach and redevelopment in lith developer. I've found new papers take to lith developer poorly, but this bleach/redev process has worked well for me. It becomes a bit grainy, but for "detailed" images makes things look hyper sharp similar to grainy film used on an image with fine details.

Combining those two things might be interesting. I haven't, but now I want to try that.

Experiment!

[esearing]

Two thoughts. First, ART 300 paper has a beautiful texture that could be somewhat what you are looking for. I use it for heavily textured images like rock and sand and love it.

Secondly, someone already mentioned lith printing, but something I've been experimenting with is bleach and redevelopment in lith developer. I've found new papers take to lith developer poorly, but this bleach/redev process has worked well for me. It becomes a bit grainy, but for "detailed" images makes things look hyper sharp similar to grainy film used on an image with fine details.

Combining those two things might be interesting. I haven't, but now I want to try that.

Experiment!

Bryan, I've got the bleach, ART, and Foma classic paper if you want to have an experimental printing session. You bring the Lith.

[Tin Can]

Very interesting

Carry on!

[Corran]

Bryan, I've got the bleach, ART, and Foma classic paper if you want to have an experimental printing session. You bring the Lith.

Great idea Eric! I will have to think of a good negative to use.