Jobo 2509N reel problem

[younghoon Kil]

Hello,
I use a 2520 tank and 2509N reel to develop film with minimal agitation. I often use B's Processor as well.
However, I get several marks on the edges of the film as shown in the attached photo.
I believe these marks are related to the protrusions in the guide rails of the 2509N reel, but I don't know how to fix this.
If you have a solution to this problem, please advise.
Thanks.

245497

[Lachlan 717]

Do you use the paddles?

[Graham Patterson]

And you do load with the emulsion side towards the core?
Since this is 'minimal' agitation you are manually inverting a full tank?

[Lars Holte]

And you do load with the emulsion side towards the core?
Since this is 'minimal' agitation you are manually inverting a full tank?

This is good advice: the emulsion side should face the core. This will take care of the marks near the two corners. And the tank should be rotated on rollers and filled with a relatively small amount of chemicals - 270 ml in the case of 6 sheets of 4x5.

[younghoon Kil]

Do you use the paddles?

Yes!


And you do load with the emulsion side towards the core?
Since this is 'minimal' agitation you are manually inverting a full tank?

Yes!
I fill the tank with 1,400 mL solution, continuous agitation for the first minute, then 5 seconds every 3 minutes.

Anyway, even when using B's Processor, I get these marks on the edges of the films. :(
Thank you all for your responses!

[Lachlan 717]

Do you prewash?

[Vaughan]

I fill the tank with 1,400 mL solution, continuous agitation for the first minute, then 5 seconds every 3 minutes.

Insufficient agitation. Large sheets will suffer bromide drag, good agitation is necessary. The 2520 tank needs 1500ml for inversion agitation, you are under-filling.

I have the same reel and JOBO 2520 tank (as well as a larger 2550 tank) I suffered from uneven development when using it for inversion agitation. I really wanted inversion to work, I'd been using it for 35mm and 120 for years. I determined that the main causes were the long fill time (around 15 seconds, 20 seconds for the large tank) and developer was dribbling onto the sheets while filling when the chemicals overflow the light baffle.

My method now is:

0) Handle the film with gloves, never bare hands.
1) Use continuous rotary agitation not inversion. A manual base is perfectly good however I recently splurged and got a motorised base: the results are the same.
2) Use the minimal amount of chemistry taking into account the number of sheets and dilution (I use HC-110 or the Ilford equivalent almost exclusively).
3) Reduce the fill time and minimise spill onto the sheets. Get a funnel that fits snuggly into the central core of the tank top, and pour the chemistry through that. Be quick but don't overflow the funnel, make sure all chemistry goes through the core to the bottom of the tank without splashing over the top onto the sheets. It should take only 5 seconds to pour 500ml, get the lid on and have the tank on its side rolling.
4) Use developing times longer then 5 minutes, preferably 7 minutes or more. Mine are typically 10 minutes.

[younghoon Kil]

Do you prewash?

Yes. 3 minutes.

[younghoon Kil]

I never thought that 1,400 mL solution would be insufficient.
Next, I'll try 1,500mL.


245512

I use a home made processing rig to develop my 4x5 films.


245513

But I like the look and feel of minimal agitation.
Anyway, both inversion agitation(1,400 mL, 30 minutes) and rotary(500 mL, 8 minutes) make these marks.
Thanks for your advice.

[Lachlan 717]

I never thought that 1,400 mL solution would be insufficient.
Next, I'll try 1,500mL.


Just take the lid off, put in the reel, fill so that the top of the reel is covered by 5-10mm of water and then decant into a measuring cylinder.

No need for trial and error with volume…

What developer are you using? Is it HC-100?

[younghoon Kil]

Just take the lid off, put in the reel, fill so that the top of the reel is covered by 5-10mm of water and then decant into a measuring cylinder.

Even 1,400mL of water fills the tank.


What developer are you using? Is it HC-100?

Ilford Ilfotec LC29. It's my favorite developer.

[Huub]

These marks are indeed related to the nodges inside the reels. I had issues with them as well when using rotation development, sometimes in combination with surge marks along the long side of the negatives. I used 1+1 XTOL on a CPE-2 processor at the time and it showed on all sorts of film, including HP5+, TMX and Foma200. I tried all sorts of things, even clipping away those nodges, but to no avail. In the end i stopped using rotation development and went back to normal reversion development using replenished XTOL. This solved the surge mark issues and the nodgesonly show up every now and then. I accept them as being part of the whole process just as those typical 4x5 rebates are.

[Vaughan]

Just take the lid off, put in the reel, fill so that the top of the reel is covered by 5-10mm of water...

The top of the 2509N reel sits above the top of the 2520 tank. It's only covered when the lid is on.

The label on the tank says that for inversion agitation, 1300ml is required for 9x12 and 1500ml for 4x5.

[younghoon Kil]

These marks are indeed related to the nodges inside the reels. I had issues with them as well when using rotation development, sometimes in combination with surge marks along the long side of the negatives. I used 1+1 XTOL on a CPE-2 processor at the time and it showed on all sorts of film, including HP5+, TMX and Foma200. I tried all sorts of things, even clipping away those nodges, but to no avail. In the end i stopped using rotation development and went back to normal reversion development using replenished XTOL. This solved the surge mark issues and the nodgesonly show up every now and then. I accept them as being part of the whole process just as those typical 4x5 rebates are.


The top of the 2509N reel sits above the top of the 2520 tank. It's only covered when the lid is on.

The label on the tank says that for inversion agitation, 1300ml is required for 9x12 and 1500ml for 4x5.

Thanks for the additional replies.
Yes, I'll try 1,500mL!

[Vaughan]

Thanks for the additional replies.
Yes, I'll try 1,500mL!

Which brings us back to my original post in this thread which was that I suffered uneven development due to the long fill time with large volumes of developer. Much better and more consistent results were achieved using continuous rotary agitation and minimum solution volumes: for HC-110 I typically use Dilution B 1+39, which for 6 sheets is 360ml of working strength developer.

I really wanted inversion agitation to work with the JOBO tank and reel, but could never get even development. A soon as I went to continuous agitation with small volumes I got quality and consistency. Note that in the larger 2550 tank I have processed 12 sheets of 4x5 on two reels, as well as 6 sheets of 5x7 and 3 sheets of 8x10 and the same method (continuous agitation, small solution volume) has given the best results. The big 2550 tank needs 3000ml for inversion agitation: the fill and drain times are significant. For 12 sheets of 4x5 (or 3 sheets of 8x10) it only needs 720ml at 1+39 or 580ml at 1+31.

[younghoon Kil]

Anyway, I recently purchased an additional 2509N reel.
And now I'm going to trim the nodges on this reel.
I'm okay with small marks, but I don't want big, dark marks like this.

245515

[Michael R]

Anyway, I recently purchased an additional 2509N reel.
And now I'm going to trim the nodges on this reel.
I'm okay with small marks, but I don't want big, dark marks like this.

245515

I am puzzled by you saying you’re getting the same marks with a B’s insert which is totally different than the Jobo reel. Nothing touches the emulsion when using the B’s thing.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I've always used 1500 CC in my Multitank 4 and Multitank 5, with no paddles. Sheet film 9x12cm and 4x5. Also 120 and 220 even mixed without problems. My darkroom is cold right now, development times are very long at room ambient.

[younghoon Kil]

I am puzzled by you saying you’re getting the same marks with a B’s insert which is totally different than the Jobo reel. Nothing touches the emulsion when using the B’s thing.

This issue occurs with both inversion agitation and continuous rotary agitation(B's processor, not B's 4x5 developing reel). :rolleyes:

p.s. If you've tried the minimal agitation or seme-stand with B's 4x5 developing reel, I would like to know what the results were.

[Michael R]

This issue occurs with both inversion agitation and continuous rotary agitation(B's processor, not B's 4x5 developing reel). :rolleyes:

p.s. If you've tried the minimal agitation or seme-stand with B's 4x5 developing reel, I would like to know what the results were.

Oh ok sorry I misunderstood about which B’s device you were using. Never mind then.

[Graham Patterson]

This only happens with the 2509n reel? Not the B's insert? Do you load the film with the notches first? How many sheets at the same time, and does it affect them all?

Looking at my 2509n reel, I am at a loss as to what could cause those marks, unless the film is not slid all the way in to the end. Even then I cannot account for the curved motion of one of the marks. If the paddles are used properly, the film is not going to move. I suppose that doing inversion with insufficient solution might cause the film to flex that much - but I can't see that happening with six sheets loaded and a normal slow inversion. I only do rotation with my Jobo 2500 series tanks.

I do wonder if the film is properly loaded in the holder. The curved mark could be caused by the darkslide hitting film that was not in the guide slot, and the heavy dark marks at the flap end could be from the corners of the darkslide hitting the film. I can't see this happening exactly the same way every time, though.

[Sal Santamaura]

I have multiple 2509n reels and Jobo tanks they fit in. Those marks appeared no matter what variation of agitation I tried. My solution was to purchase a number of HP Combiplan T tanks and set them up as this article advocates:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/

Results are absolutely even and free from any kind of anomalies. Just as even as what comes out of my CPP/2 and Expert drums, but with the advantage of intermittent agitation.

[younghoon Kil]

This only happens with the 2509n reel? Not the B's insert? Do you load the film with the notches first? How many sheets at the same time, and does it affect them all?

Looking at my 2509n reel, I am at a loss as to what could cause those marks, unless the film is not slid all the way in to the end. Even then I cannot account for the curved motion of one of the marks. If the paddles are used properly, the film is not going to move. I suppose that doing inversion with insufficient solution might cause the film to flex that much - but I can't see that happening with six sheets loaded and a normal slow inversion. I only do rotation with my Jobo 2500 series tanks.

I do wonder if the film is properly loaded in the holder. The curved mark could be caused by the darkslide hitting film that was not in the guide slot, and the heavy dark marks at the flap end could be from the corners of the darkslide hitting the film. I can't see this happening exactly the same way every time, though.

This problem only occurs when using the 2509N reel(I don't use B's 4x5 developing reel). And it always happens.
Anyway, I'm going to test again by changing the film direction. Also, I'll test again following your advice.
Thank you!

[younghoon Kil]

I have multiple 2509n reels and Jobo tanks they fit in. Those marks appeared no matter what variation of agitation I tried. My solution was to purchase a number of HP Combiplan T tanks and set them up as this article advocates:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/

Results are absolutely even and free from any kind of anomalies. Just as even as what comes out of my CPP/2 and Expert drums, but with the advantage of intermittent agitation.

I also have three clean HP Combiplan T tanks. But I'm not used to developing in the dark. :rolleyes:
But maybe I'll try it one day.
Thanks!

[Mick Fagan]

I've just had a close look at my 2509N reel and the paddles.

Now I don't have any sheets of film in the reel slots, but I noticed something which may be relevant to single rotary developing, as opposed to forward and reverse rotary developing. It is a bit of a long shot, but gently pushing the paddle(s) from one end, the paddle moves ever so slightly and the opposite end protrudes, or sort of protrudes from the reel a tiny bit.

If the rotation direction was always the same direction, then I'm thinking the paddle(s) may end up protruding a slight bit and causing some swirling or maybe a small agitation drought area.

Whereas forward and reverse agitation may counterbalance this possibility.

Just sort of thinking out loud here.

[younghoon Kil]

When I do rotary developing with a 2509N reel, I use B's Processor and operate it in bidirectional rotation mode.
Anyway, thank you for the detailed explanation.

p.s. To prepare the films needed for various developing tests, I went out to a nearby area today and took some photos.

245528

[Bormental]

Never had any issues with 2509N reels. 100% smooth and even. B&W and color. Inversion & rotation. I am finding 4x5 to be less prone to issues than 120! Maybe there's some kind of manufacturing variability going on, since some folks are reporting issues with 2509N reels no matter what they try?

[Vaughan]

In the end no sheet film processing system is perfect, and the reality is that technique must be changed to suit the idiosyncrasies of the tank and reel to optimise results.

[Havoc]

I did have trouble with the 2509n in the CPE2 but that went away when using the high speed setting. At low speed I had marks at the short end of the film.

[SergeyT]

I had the same or very similar issue when developing film in the 2509N with or without the "paddles".
Usage of an Expert Drum solves all the issues and makes the outcome as perfect as it gets each and every time. It is very economical in chemicals usage too.