Need Help Choosing a Chamonix 4x5 [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

westpost

24-Dec-2023, 14:30

Hi all,

I am currently using a Graflex Crown Graphic with Kodak Ektar 152mm f/4.5 lens for wet plate work, using a Chamonix wet plate holder. I love the holder. One pain with the Crown Graphic is that switching between portrait and landscape requires getting the camera off the tripod, and then rotating the whole camera, and re-mounting it on the tripod. I am doing studio work, portraits (of one or two people) and need to switch orientations without too much hassle. Also the Crown Graphic has minimal front movements, and in the future I might want to experiment with movements, as I want to start shooting still life, especially very small things. Right now that Ektar lens can go to what seems like 1:1 magnification with the bellows fully extended. I would prefer to magnify as much as possible, i.e. macro (picture small insects, small models), and will write another post on my quest for the right lens. I would use the Chamonix bellows extension board.

Since I plan to do mainly studio work, size and weight are not primary concerns. I don't really understand rear movements enough to know how helpful that would be for macro work. I have settled on Chamonix due to the high level of craftsmanship and customer service.

The 45N-2 is optimized for foldability and weight, but lacks some adjustments. Since I'm not bringing it backpacking, I think I would do better with a different model. The 45H-1 is meant for wide angle work, as per the website. So does that leave me with the 45F-2? I see that it has separate front controls for rise/fall and tilt, and asymmetric rear tilts. I know the rear adjustments are for architectural and landscape work, but don't know if they would help with macro photography. Are there other considerations that I am missing? I have found an earlier thread of the subject of how to choose a Chamonix 4x5, but since my requirements are different, I felt this warranted a separate post.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Adam

Alan Klein

24-Dec-2023, 14:42

Contact Hugo Zhang a member here and who represents Chamonix.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/member.php?6610-Hugo-Zhang

Bob Kerner

24-Dec-2023, 15:03

There are many reviews of these 4x5s on Youtube. They are worth watching in addition to whatever responses you get here. Perhaps compare that information with your use-case. Here's one (https://youtu.be/0YnMVk6wfjo?si=yXhjm2OZdwE5GmMa) worth watching; this guy seems competent.

BTW, since you mentioned studio work you should be prepared for responses suggesting a monorail camera!

xkaes

24-Dec-2023, 17:56

"Since I plan to do mainly studio work, size and weight are not primary concerns."

How does this lead you to Chamonix? Great cameras, but that's not what they are all about.

r.e.

24-Dec-2023, 18:01

westpost

24-Dec-2023, 18:05

"Since I plan to do mainly studio work, size and weight are not primary concerns."

How does this lead you to Chamonix? Great cameras, but that's not what they are all about.

I have settled on Chamonix due to the high level of craftsmanship and customer service.

David Schaller

24-Dec-2023, 18:20

xkaes

24-Dec-2023, 18:36

Thanks, and there are lots of studio cameras that have a high level of craftsmanship and customer service.

Don't get me wrong. I'm strictly a field camera guy, and usually encourage people to explore their benefits, but for you???????? Seems like a mismatch.

westpost

24-Dec-2023, 18:37

I think what xkaes meant was, why not use a monorail camera for studio work? That’s what they’re designed for, and can be had relatively inexpensively. Field cameras, such as the excellent Chamonix models, are designed for work outside the studio.

What would be the benefits of a monorail camera, besides lower cost? Field cameras appeal to me because I would like to think I could pack it up and bring it in an airplane carry-on without dedicating a whole suitcase.

xkaes

24-Dec-2023, 18:39

Don't assume field cameras cost more than studio cameras. Usually the opposite.

r.e.

24-Dec-2023, 18:47

What would be the benefits of a monorail camera, besides lower cost? Field cameras appeal to me because I would like to think I could pack it up and bring it in an airplane carry-on without dedicating a whole suitcase.

Check out Arca-Swiss's 4x5 monorail at its new U.S. website: https://arca-swiss-usa.com/pages/home.

At the very least, it will straighten you out on the idea that monorails are cheaper :)

On the upside, Arca-Swiss’s 4x5 is modular, light and packs small.

xkaes

24-Dec-2023, 19:19

That Arca-Swiss F-line 4x5" Field is something else!!! I haven't run across that one before. And only $4,500. Just my rotten luck -- I already did my Christmas shopping!

Oh well, there's always NEXT year.

David Schaller

24-Dec-2023, 19:59

What would be the benefits of a monorail camera, besides lower cost? Field cameras appeal to me because I would like to think I could pack it up and bring it in an airplane carry-on without dedicating a whole suitcase.

More movements, flexible systems. You can add bellows to your heart’s delight. No one camera does everything. You said you were doing portraits and wanted to do still life. Now you want a camera for travel?

r.e.

24-Dec-2023, 20:14

Field cameras appeal to me because I would like to think I could pack it up and bring it in an airplane carry-on without dedicating a whole suitcase.

You can pack a 4x5 Arca-Swiss monorail in a small bag or carry it by your side with one hand on the rail and the camera upside down. To do this, you have the camera on a rail about 15cm long and your hand holding the rail between the two standards.

Bob Kerner

24-Dec-2023, 20:26

I just had a look at your posting history. It looks like you are on a similar path that I was on many years ago. Crown Graphic > step up to a different camera. Your OP in this thread states that you "don't understand...rear movements" and how they'd benefit your work. I'd humbly suggest you sort that out before spending more money, and you can do that with a used camera before investing in a top tier field camera.

Why do I say that? Because I jumped from camera to camera spending lots of money without ever really getting good at the camera I had. And, yes, I even a tried monorail (and it came apart and packed down compactly, as a matter of fact). I finished with a very expensive wooden field camera that I also didn't know how to control very well. It made nice images purely by luck. And then I grew bored, and digital became more affordable and I sold all that stuff at a loss for the most part.

Fast forward many years and I'm having another crack at it and starting with an inexpensive camera, used lens and film holders. If I quit again, I don't intend to lose $1800 on the sale of a handmade wooden field camera.

If you're doing studio and macro work you're probably best served by a monorail. If your backpacking/doing nature photography, get a folder. If you just want to buy a Chamonix because you like it, that's okay too but that style camera might not be best aligned with what you wrote in your OP.

westpost

25-Dec-2023, 12:40

I just had a look at your posting history. It looks like you are on a similar path that I was on many years ago. Crown Graphic > step up to a different camera.

Yes, I got the Crown Graphic as a learning camera, to figure out what I wanted and to get the hang of 4x5 generally.

Your OP in this thread states that you "don't understand...rear movements" and how they'd benefit your work.

I was hoping that someone here had knowledge of how rear movements might apply to macro photography specifically, and might give their thoughts on this thread.

Why do I say that? Because I jumped from camera to camera spending lots of money without ever really getting good at the camera I had.

My plan has been to start with the Crown Graphic, then move to my forever camera, then sell the Crown for about what I bought it for. This seemed like a good/safe plan.

If you're doing studio and macro work you're probably best served by a monorail. If you're backpacking/doing nature photography, get a folder. If you just want to buy a Chamonix because you like it, that's okay too but that style camera might not be best aligned with what you wrote in your OP.

I have decided that although most of my work will be studio, I would like something that folds down smaller than a monorail system for when I need to travel with it. I won't be backpacking with it, but want it to fit in a backpack with room to spare. Chamonix is my favorite of the field cameras, because of the quality, service, and because it was recommended to me as the best brand for my needs by my mentor, who uses one. I would have gotten Chamonix originally if they had not been out of stock. Now the 45F-2 is in stock, and the purpose of my post is to figure out if that's the right model for me.

I hope that all makes sense. Thanks for all the responses.

Bob Kerner

25-Dec-2023, 13:47

Yes makes more sense now. If your mentor uses one, why not ask him/her for advice.? Same thing for the movements aspect of your question. Also plenty of content out there on large format macro photography; this for example (https://youtu.be/j2gQuyVMc6g?si=qudCXagybRAobtyQ). Same principles apply for 4x5 and 8x10, Mat happens to work in 8x10. Mat's channel also has episodes on basic camera movements. I've watched all of them as a refresher course in LF while I wait to get going.

Tin Can

25-Dec-2023, 15:38

Macro requires long bellows, study that

I shoot with 11X14 X-Ray

a 4" mushroom fills the film about 2.5/1

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51005863143_0eac2c21da_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kHdo6v)X-Ray Film Macro shot on 11X114 (https://flic.kr/p/2kHdo6v) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

xkaes

25-Dec-2023, 15:56

Macro requires long bellows, ...

Or short focal length lenses. My 12.5mm doesn't need much bellows at all -- relatively speaking -- to fill 4x5".

Chamonix makes great cameras, but there are other "folders" -- new and used -- that are every bit as well-built. There is a great deal of variation in the features of these cameras -- type and amount of movement, weight, bellows minimum and maximum length, etc. That's what should determine your choice. There are countless posts on this FORUM about people buying what turned out not to be the best camera for them -- for various reasons. Do your research to avoid ending up in that situation. Here's an incomplete list of folders and features:

http://www.subclub.org/toko/4x5table.htm

Greg

25-Dec-2023, 16:38

When I was doing 4x5 studio work I chose to go the route of a Sinar: Both a 4x5 Sinar X and a 4x5 Sinar Norma. Both can be easily had for under $500 each. If no or little movements needed, choose the Norma. The classic Norma has always been my preferred 4x5 camera. For "extensive" movements chose the X. Then acquired a used 4x5 Chamonix for field work. All three cameras cost maybe only 20% more than a New Chamonix.

westpost

26-Dec-2023, 13:55

As mentioned: I have decided that although most of my work will be studio, I would like something that folds down smaller than a monorail system for when I need to travel with it.

That said, I hear what everyone is saying about the benefits of a monorail system over a field camera for studio work.

What particular monorail cameras should I consider? Sinar X or Sinar Norma have been mentioned. What other brands? Models? As specific as possible would be very helpful.

Thanks!

Leszek Vogt

26-Dec-2023, 20:34

westpost

26-Dec-2023, 20:38

For starters, Linhof, Deardorff, Ebony + Lotus...probably more expensive (?) Wisner, Shen-Hao, Nagaoka, Ikeda, Tachihara, Osaka, Horseman, Omega, Toyo, Wista, Canham, Zone VI, Calumet & Interpid. The last two are likely most reasonably priced. These are rather popular brands and by no means this is a complete list. Good luck choosing.

How many of these are monorail systems? Now I’m being convinced that is the way to go for studio work. Specific model numbers/names are appreciated. Too big a list is just overload.

What would be great is one or two recommendations with the reason why it’s a good idea. Thanks!

r.e.

26-Dec-2023, 21:09

You may be familiar with Arca-Swiss as a maker of tripod heads. As I understand it, it invented the ball head. Less well known, it also makes film and digital back monorails for 6x9, 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10. The new U.S. website is clear on models and differences between them: https://arca-swiss-usa.com. Rod Klukas, the U.S. representative, would be happy to discuss them with you. He is very knowledgeable about the brand, and has been a participant in this forum for many years. He usually has some pre-owned cameras. You'll find them on the site.

Arca-Swiss is based in Besançon, France. There is a U.S. dealer list on the new website. For example, B&H sells them. Note that Arca-Swiss cameras are not made in large quantities, they are not plentiful on the used market and they are not inexpensive.

westpost

26-Dec-2023, 21:14

Note that Arca-Swiss cameras are not inexpensive.

The problem I’m running into, the more I look, is that the less expensive models, like the Sinar brand, are no longer made or serviced. As they say, I want a product, not a project. But the ones still made, for which there is support, like Arca-Swiss, are too expensive for me.

r.e.

26-Dec-2023, 21:30

The problem I’m running into, the more I look, is that the less expensive models, like the Sinar brand, are no longer made or serviced. As they say, I want a product, not a project. But the ones still made, for which there is support, like Arca-Swiss, are too expensive for me.

So it's a matter of deciding what your budget is and seeing what's available within it. Don't assume that you can't afford Arca-Swiss. If someone offered you an Arca-Swiss Discovery in good condition, you'd have the core of a very good camera for both travel and studio work at a good price. The Discovery was sold to photography students at an attractive price, but hasn't been available for many years. However, the Arca-Swiss system is highly modular. The Arca-Swiss in my signature, which is configurable for both 4x5 and 8x10, started life as a Discovery.

That said, Sinars and Sinar parts are plentiful and they are quality cameras. The main question that I'd have is weight, since you want to travel. Someone more familiar than I am with the Sinar brand could address that. An Arca-Swiss 4x5, stripped down for travel, weighs as little as 6-7 pounds.

Leszek Vogt

26-Dec-2023, 21:44

Here is a list from one of our members, that he posted on another site. This is appx 2yrs old. Enjoy the homework:D.

Linhof: Linhof Precision Cameras made in Munich | Linhof

Chamonix: Chamonix View Camera

Shen Hao: http://www.shen-hao.com/

Gibellini: Gibellini Camera

Arca-Swiss:

Canham: K. B. Canham Cameras, Inc.

Intrepid: The Intrepid Camera Company

Cambo: Manufacturer High Quality Techcam, Architectural and Reproduction Cameras, Studio Stands and studio/video accessories - based in Kampen, The Netherlands - Cambo

Ritter: LARGE FORMAT CAMERA REPAIR R T RITTER|TOWNSHEND VERMONT

Walker: Walker Cameras | Large Format Cameras & Accessories | Home Page

Lotus: http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/index1.html

Svedovsky: http://svedovsky.com/

VDS cameras: http://vdscamera.com/

ONDU (pinhole cameras): http://ondupinhole.com

Argentum: http://www.argentumcamera.com/eng/pages/other/home.htm

Black Art Woodcraft: http://www.blackartwoodcraft.com/wet...ld-Camera.aspx

Wista: https://www.wista.co.jp/e_wista/e_sh...a/e_camera.htm

Toyo: http://www.toyoview.com/ProductInfo/ProductInfo.html

StenopeiKa: http://www.stenopeika.com/en/

Horseman: http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/index.html

Wilderness Camera: http://www.bhcamera.us/wilderness810.php

Da Yi: http://www.bhcamera.us/dayi612.php

Gaoersi: http://www.bhcamera.us/gaoersi810.php

Wanderlust: https://wanderlustcameras.com/

Silvestri: http://www.silvestricamera.com/eng/p...odotti_eng.htm

Frica: http://www.frica.cn/

Dayi:

Plaubel: http://www.plaubel.com/

HF Large format cameras: https://www.facebook.com/HFcameras/

Star Camera Company: http://www.starcameracompany.com

darr

26-Dec-2023, 21:51

My 2 cents ...

Monorail cameras have been an excellent tool for me in the studio throughout my commercial career. I have shot with a few from different manufacturers. They all had their pluses and minuses. I shot Arca Swiss the longest, in 4x5 and 6x9 formats, and their made-for-digital model, the ML-2, was my last one. If I was doing a product shot that called for macro work, it was the Arca Swiss ML-2 with a Phase One back. Focus stacking and Helicon Focus to finish the image. Serious macro work is best done with digital IMHO.

Today, I am retired and sold off most of the commercial gear. I keep a Sinar Norma on a studio stand as my monorail because it is affordable, versatile, and classic. I have a Linhof MT 3000 field camera for when I am shooting a 90mm to 300mm lens; I wouldn't say I like the Linhof for anything less than 90mm, and it does well with the 300mm. My landscape field camera of choice (the only 4x5 camera model I purchased more than once) is the Ebony RSW. It is a beautiful camera that I shoot 65mm to 150mm lenses with.

Try a Sinar Norma for your monorail. There are nicer monorails, but Norma cannot be beaten for its price and versatility.

A lot of folks love the Chamonix. I went with Ebony cameras when they were still being made, and I love using them (I have had four different models). So, no Chamonix for me if an Ebony can be found.

Macro photography is something I would leave to digital.

All the best!
Darr

Bob Kerner

27-Dec-2023, 08:52

There are plenty of monorail cameras out there. I just googled and came up with 4 that are less than $500. You should not be apprehensive about the camera just because it's no longer manufactured. As mentioned above the US representative for Arca Swiss, Rod Klukas occasionally pops up on this forum. I just bought stuff from him. His website is overflowing with Arca Swiss gear and he's happy to help people. I had a monorail, built like a tank but as I mentioned in my previous post most of its capabilities were lost on me. Unlike wood, you can thrash a monorail around and it won't fall apart so I wouldn't worry about durability. Is the ground glass intact? Bellows intact? Do the gears work smoothly? Do you have a method to mount the rail to your tripod head? That's about it.

I think at the end of the day we cannot tell you what to buy. And you shouldn't rely on the internet to tell you get an X with Y, Z and A attachments, no more than you should let someone tell you to get your gallbladder removed because you have indigestion. Make a list of your subject matter. Read some material (or watch video) on camera movements. Then ask yourself "How much movement do I need to photography that thing?" Maybe add some wiggle room to get better and expand.....then find a camera that meets those needs AND is within your budget.

The same goes for the lenses too, except that is marginally easier because there's a smartphone app that will emulate different lenses in various film formats so you don't have to guess as to what a sense will look like.

westpost

27-Dec-2023, 11:28

I think at the end of the day we cannot tell you what to buy. And you shouldn't rely on the internet to tell you get an X with Y, Z and A attachments, no more than you should let someone tell you to get your gallbladder removed because you have indigestion. Make a list of your subject matter. Read some material (or watch video) on camera movements. Then ask yourself "How much movement do I need to photography that thing?" Maybe add some wiggle room to get better and expand.....then find a camera that meets those needs AND is within your budget.

I will follow this advice.

westpost

27-Dec-2023, 11:31

Macro photography is something I would leave to digital.

I will take this to heart. There are ways to go from digital file to wet plate.

xkaes

27-Dec-2023, 11:39

Unlike wood, you can thrash a monorail around and it won't fall apart...

A stereotype in the making.

Just like there are rugged monorails, there are rugged wooden folders. I've never babied my TOKO 4x5. It's taken plenty of beatings in the backcountry from Canada to Mexico -- and still works like it's new. I can only think of a couple of monorails that could have done what my "woodie" handled.

Bob Kerner

27-Dec-2023, 11:54

A stereotype in the making.

Just like there are rugged monorails, there are rugged wooden folders. I've never babied my TOKO 4x5. It's taken plenty of beatings in the backcountry from Canada to Mexico -- and still works like it's new. I can only think of a couple of monorails that could have done what my "woodie" handled.

That wasn't my intent. My point was, in general, they are durable machines and the OP shouldn't be too worried about the used market. I'd be more concerned, on the used market, about a wooden camera. My wooden field had a focusing knob tear off from the camera a few months after I got it....and it was made to order, so to speak. And it wasn't because I dropped it, either. I just think there are more caveat emptor issues with used wood than used metal. In general.....of course as long as last user wasn't hammering nails with the monorail :)

narayan67v

28-Dec-2023, 07:18

The 45N-2 is optimized for foldability and weight, but lacks some adjustments. Since I'm not bringing it backpacking, I think I would do better with a different model. The 45H-1 is meant for wide angle work, as per the website. So does that leave me with the 45F-2? I see that it has separate front controls for rise/fall and tilt, and asymmetric rear tilts. I know the rear adjustments are for architectural and landscape work, but don't know if they would help with macro photography. Are there other considerations that I am missing? I have found an earlier thread of the subject of how to choose a Chamonix 4x5, but since my requirements are different, I felt this warranted a separate post.9apps (https://get-9apps.com/web/)

xkaes

28-Dec-2023, 07:33

Rear tilt is mostly used to correct the perspective when the camera is tilted -- up or down. It's not just tall buildings -- although that is a good example. Tall trees are another -- think REDWOODS and CLIFFS.

With macro work, the camera is more likely to be pointed DOWN -- and creates the opposite problem. For many small subjects, that is not a big problem, but for others it is -- think jewelry, watches, stamps, any small objects that have "lines" and edges that you want to appear "normal". Pointing the camera down distorts that -- but can be corrected with the back tilt.

But MOST field cameras have more than adequate rear tilt -- forward and back.

Alan Klein

28-Dec-2023, 11:15

westpost

2-Jan-2024, 22:45

Vaughan

3-Jan-2024, 23:15

Regarding monorail studio cameras, do they tend to have rotating or reversing backs? I can see from photos that the bellows all tend to be square, which is an indication that backs could — at least in theory — work in either orientation.

Toyo made both types of 4x5 backs that are interchangeable: the rotating was often on deluxe models, the fixed on cheaper. None of the 5x7 or 8x10 backs rotate.

Drew Wiley

4-Jan-2024, 15:48

I wonder how many people here even bother with asymmetric or yaw-free controls. I have em on both my Sinar F and P components, but prefer the earlier Norma version, which doesn't even have that feature. It can be useful for speeding up studio tabletop photography; but otherwise, I haven't bothered with it for decades.

westpot - most monorails employ reversible vertical/horizontal backs, not rotating. Another fancy feature seldom used. I remember rotating backs on the old mahogany 4X5/5x7 Deardorff Special.

Greg

4-Jan-2024, 15:58

I wonder how many people here even bother with asymmetric or yaw-free controls. I have em on both my Sinar F and P components, but prefer the earlier Norma version, which doesn't even have that feature. It can be useful for speeding up studio tabletop photography; but otherwise, I haven't bothered with it for decades.

Agree 100%. I swear that I can set up my 4x5 Norma faster than my 4x5 X in the field. Though for shooting 8x10, I actually do prefer the P. I one time had a chance to shoot with a P that was modified to be an 11x14... thought it was a "pig" to set up and shoot with.