Problems in Processed 4x5 Film

[timhussin]

These black markings have been showing up randomly on my Ilford 4x5 film lately and I have no idea why. The lab I use doesn't know why either. Help please!243897

[Doremus Scudder]

Let's see a scan/photo of the whole negative please, including the rebate.

And, can you describe which camera you use, lens attachments, if any, etc., etc. Anything that might be relevant.

First guesses would be: some kind of marks left by a holder or ridges in the processing tank/holder (lab's fault in this case), an obstruction when exposing, either something inside the camera or on the lens itself, something foreign in the filmholder (not so likely), etc.

But, seeing the negative would help tremendously. Do examine it carefully at let us know. Are the areas in question completely clear, damaged physically, include the rebate or not (i.e., only confined to the image area or not), sharp edged or blurry edged, are they in exactly the same position all all the affected images? All of this will help.

Best,

Doremus

[timhussin]

Thanks for getting back with me. I use a Calumet Woodfield XM with a Nikkor-W 180mm lens. I have Fidelity and Lisco film holders. I can double check the holders but as you said, I think that is unlikely that there'd be something in a holder obstructing. And I don't see anything in the camera that could be getting in the way.

I've attached a scan of the entire negative. It has appeared on other images and mostly in the same place. I'm attaching an additional image for reference and a picture of the negative itself. I looks like it's only on the negative, but one of them looks like it includes part of the rebate.

Thanks

[Graham Patterson]

Those are really well defined and dense. Any physical damage to the emulsion? Since they are dark on the positive, they should be clear on the negative, which suggests the film was obscured during exposure. To be that well defined, the interference should be close to the back of the camera. or on the holder.

The picture of the negative looks like we are seeing a dark background through the mark.

If it was a light leak the effect on the negative would be dark/black, and white on the positive print.

[sharktooth]

Are you new to large format photography, or have you been doing this for a while? It's good to have some context.

As Graham Patterson noted, check for some physical damage to the emulsion. The shot of the negative shows a dark patch, which should be light in the final image, but the final image is dark there. To me, this indicates some surface irregularity that makes the negative look darker when viewed with reflected light. I suspect the emulsion may be abraded there, or even missing.

My first guess would be a handling problem at the lab, while the emulsion is wet in processing. Does the lab do a lot of 4x5 processing? I'm guessing not, since most people process their own B&W sheet film.

[Yorkie]

I may be a million miles off but those marks look remarkably similar to the ones a friend got a few years ago when he processed film in a Mod54 film holder and mistakenly put the film in with the emulsion side out, i.e the emulsion was in contact with the film retaining fingers. Just a thought ......

[Fred L]

If you could find out how the lab is processing your film, that could either rule lab issues out, or in, as the cause. I'd also take a good look inside the camera, from the front of the camera. I would also, in a darkened room, focus on a white wall etc., that was the only thing illuminated and see if you can see these obstructions on the ground glass. Has to be a simple explanation for this, good luck !

[timhussin]

I've been using this camera and the holders for the better part of 10 years now, and never have seen this issue come up. That's why I thought it was the lab, but they said they do not know what part of their process could be causing that. They use dip and dunk method but don't do too much 4x5. The emulsion on the negative looks like it is missing in those spots. I'm attaching two more instances of this problem from the last batch I just got back. I used to develop my own but haven't for years. I'm going to start doing it at a local community darkroom here in Asheville, to at least eliminate that variable. 243936243940

[Fred L]

Those are so consistent I have to think it's lab issues, regardless of what they're saying, esp. if you've been using this camera for a long time. Not super familiar with d&d but presume sheets get clipped onto holders. Also, if they don't run much 4x5, then that's a red flag for me.

If this is a lab you've used before, I'd ask to see the processor and how they run the sheets. If they really want to help resolve this, they shld let you see it.

[paulbarden]

I'm with Fred on this - it has to be the way the lab uses clips to secure the film and the clips are preventing developer from getting to the film. If they're claiming they don't know why this is happening, then you need to find a new lab, or - better yet - DIY

[Deyoung]

243949
Seeing sheet film holders like this one I found for sale online makes me think its a lab problem. Perhaps someone isn't using the holders correctly?
Just a thought.

[sharktooth]

I've been using this camera and the holders for the better part of 10 years now, and never have seen this issue come up. That's why I thought it was the lab, but they said they do not know what part of their process could be causing that. They use dip and dunk method but don't do too much 4x5. The emulsion on the negative looks like it is missing in those spots. I'm attaching two more instances of this problem from the last batch I just got back. I used to develop my own but haven't for years. I'm going to start doing it at a local community darkroom here in Asheville, to at least eliminate that variable. 243936243940

Thanks for the feedback regarding your experience. Since you've been doing this for 10 years with the same equipment, you'd definitely recognize the common problems. This definitely isn't common, and very unusual. The most likely source is probably the lab, as seems the general consensus. Deyoung's picture of some dip n' dunk racks looks like a likely scenario.

One other thing that could be happening is an actual defect in the film. Normally, I would say this is extremely unlikely with Ilford products, but there's been an issue with Ilford HP5 light leaks for 35mm that's been talked about over at Photrio https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/strange-problem-with-my-developed-film.201108/. Ilford has admitted that it is potentially their fault, but have been "quiet" about addressing the issue publicly. To me, this indicates that their production quality can't be fully trusted.

[Doremus Scudder]

A backlit photo of the negative would be helpful. If you don't have a light table, just pull up a blank page on your computer screen and photograph the negative against that.

Doremus

[bmikiten]

A local lab switched to a dip-and-dunk system a few years ago and had this very same problem. Ask how they are processing and you'll find the answer.