40 or 42 inch rolls of silver fibre paper

[bob carnie]

Hello out there

I am trying to purchase Ilford Warmtone Glossy in 100ft rolls not 32ft rolls, either 30 inch , 40 inch or 42inch width.

Right now I am stumped with my suppliers , Ilford only makes 100ft rolls in 50 inch and 56 inch .. I can only see 42 inch roll in 32 ft lengths and I find this way of packaging produces very curly paper when at the
printing stages even with good humidification.

So I am wondering if anyone has seen this problem , or can you recommend a longer length roll that will give me good results . thanks Bob

[xkaes]

I can't imagine using fiber-based mural paper without an assistant or two. It would be impossible to avoid kinks. Curling would be the least of your problems.

[domaz]

Pretty sure Bob has probably the most experience of anyone here on dealing with big Silver paper, look up his YouTube channel.

[Duolab123]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1017785-REG/ilford_1172160_mgfb1k_classic_42_x98_ei.html

B&H has 42" x 98 foot.

[Duolab123]

Whoops not warmtone sorry

[bob carnie]

I can't imagine using fiber-based mural paper without an assistant or two. It would be impossible to avoid kinks. Curling would be the least of your problems.

Ok I have done a few thousand murals by hand , I am just looking for paper

[bob carnie]

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1017785-REG/ilford_1172160_mgfb1k_classic_42_x98_ei.html

B&H has 42" x 98 foot.

Interesting.. I am looking for Warmtone but his may be my only fall back option

[Mark Sampson]

Just imagine the amount of Nelson's Gold Toner you're going to need to warm that paper up... and the cost... at 100F to boot.
Bob, I wish you all the best!

[bob carnie]

Hi Mark

That actually is my main concern as I mainly use Ilford Warmtone and using this nuetral paper will cause colour issues . The project I am working on requires 20 x 24 warmtone editionns. and then some 24 x 36 editions going to the same places . I may just have to buy the smaller length warmtone rolls , raise the humidity in my room and cut under safelight to the required size and put in an over size paper safe for printing use. Its a PIA right now for me to manage. also I have to wait up to 8 weeks for the Distributer in Canada to get the paper into the country.

[bob carnie]

To the above point I know that there are 30 x 40 paper safes, is anyone aware of a larger paper safe ?

[esearing]

Bob, if you buy the 50 inch roll , do you have access to a band saw that could cut the roll down the entire roll to the 40 inch or what ever size you need. Then you have the left over for test prints and smaller print sizes of the same paper.

I have seen plans for large paper sizes using a dresser drawer with internal light baffles that remain closed until lifted. Clamshell style box with oversized hinged lid. Might work with roll paper.
Finding a drawer that is 30in deep would be the challenge as most furniture is only 24in deep or less.

[bob carnie]

Bob, if you buy the 50 inch roll , do you have access to a band saw that could cut the roll down the entire roll to the 40 inch or what ever size you need. Then you have the left over for test prints and smaller print sizes of the same paper.

I have seen plans for large paper sizes using a dresser drawer with internal light baffles that remain closed until lifted. Clamshell style box with oversized hinged lid. Might work with roll paper.
Finding a drawer that is 30in deep would be the challenge as most furniture is only 24in deep or less.

Funny you mention this , I did it once using a table top saw , it was the most scary thing in my life (well almost) I am petrified of saws but I do have assistants availabel.. I would then think about 56 inch roll cut to 40 inch which would leave me 100ft of 16 inch, Not a bad idea
just need to figure out which saw is the best.

I knew if I asked enough questions I would get a suitable answer. now I just need to find the right portable saw I can bring into the darkroom, I have tons of experience cutting from the roll, its how we did murals in the 80's thanks esearing

[xkaes]

The motors on my electric saws give off very bright blue sparks -- something to check out.

[John Layton]

....and loads of little paper-crumbs!

[John Layton]

Here’s my DIY setup for big (40x60 inch) prints. In the foreground is the paper roll holder on a temporary work table. The large easel on the wall, while positioned very precisely with a bracket and rotatable hold-downs, allows for accurate placement, focus, and the creating of test strips, after which the easel is removed, its leading paper hold-down removed, and placed with its now “open” end against the bottom edge of the paper roll holder platform, at which time I’ll feed paper into the easel and cut it with a razor knife and replace that leading edge hold down and remount the easel to the wall, after which I’ll expose it, using my DIY horizontal enlarger:

243806

After making the exposure, I’ll then remove the easel’s leading edge hold-down once more, but leave the easel in place on the wall while I carefully slide the exposed paper out and carry it into the print darkroom, and slide it into the large single processing tank/tray (here set up for 30 x 40, but the 40 x 60 tank, visible in the first photo leaning against the wall, also fits over the sink). Note that this view is of the “feed-end” where chemicals get dumped from their tubs into the tray, with agitation being accomplished by rocking the whole thing side to side and back to front:

243807

At the end of each chemical step, the left hand side of the tray is lifted slightly and held up by an extra 2x4, after which I’ll open the waste gate on the opposite end and allow each chemical to pour back into their original tubs, which are themselves slid back and forth underneath the processing tray. After each solution is poured out, I very carefully squeegee off the print to allow for maximum solution recovery as well as minimal carryover to the next chemical. Pretty nifty I think!:

243808

Finally, after a thorough washing of the print, I’ll again gently squeegee the print with the tray tilted and waste gate open, and roll the whole print around a “pool noodle” as I wipe of excess moisture on the prints backside with a clean microfiber cloth. Finally, I carry the rolled print back into the studio and carefully hang it to dry. The great thing about this setup is that once the exposed paper is placed into the tray for processing, it never gets handled in any way until I wrap it around that noodle…almost entirely mitigating the risk of those horrible creases!

Oh…and here’s a better view of my DIY horizontal enlarger, consisting of a motorized carrier which many will recognize as the rear (usually vertical) frame from a Beseler 4x5 enlarger, which has been carefully positioned and taped to the work table, ensuring that the “enlarger” part of this setup, which itself has been fastened to the moving part of the carrier in a way that allows no lateral movement as it rolls closer or further from the easel (on wheels) using the motor, remains absolutely square with the easel. The enlarger features a glass negative carrier, held in place in contact with the lower flange of my Heiland LED VC head which I’ve removed from my Zone VI enlarger. This head is wonderful in that the wavelengths it emits are very precise and therefore very efficient, keeping expose times very reasonable. Oh…and the fine focus mechanism is cobbled from the focus bed of an ancient 5x7 Linhof:

243809

[Jim Andrada]

Once upon a time I decided I'd like to build a 28 foot wooden sailboat. Nice sturdy one at that. I'd already built a couple of small boats (and they didn't sink!) but this one was going to be quite a different story. The keel was to be cut from 9 inch thick oak. Now, 9 inch thick oak is not something one tosses around the workshop casually. So I started by buying a humongous bandsaw that stood 7 feet high weighed 1000 pounds, and had a cutting height limit of 19 inches.

The point of all this is that there are bandsaws around that will cut a roll of pretty much any diameter and there is probably one in a woodworker's shop not too far from you. Far safer than using a table saw, cuts cleaner, less waste, etc etc.

But maybe even better than vertical bandsaw would be an angled metal cutting saw. Like these.

https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Bandsaw/s?k=Metal+Bandsaw

If the roll is under 5 - 6 inches thick you can probably get one with base for not so mucho dinero and sell it on ebay when you're done - or keep it for next time. If you haven't worked with one of these, they're very safe, cut a thin kerf, and work by twisting the bandsaw blade so the length of the cutoff isn't limited. If the roll is thicker, any decent metal fabricator in the area will have one with greater capacity.

[bob carnie]

Once upon a time I decided I'd like to build a 28 foot wooden sailboat. Nice sturdy one at that. I'd already built a couple of small boats (and they didn't sink!) but this one was going to be quite a different story. The keel was to be cut from 9 inch thick oak. Now, 9 inch thick oak is not something one tosses around the workshop casually. So I started by buying a humongous bandsaw that stood 7 feet high weighed 1000 pounds, and had a cutting height limit of 19 inches.

The point of all this is that there are bandsaws around that will cut a roll of pretty much any diameter and there is probably one in a woodworker's shop not too far from you. Far safer than using a table saw, cuts cleaner, less waste, etc etc.

But maybe even better than vertical bandsaw would be an angled metal cutting saw. Like these.

https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Bandsaw/s?k=Metal+Bandsaw

If the roll is under 5 - 6 inches thick you can probably get one with base for not so mucho dinero and sell it on ebay when you're done - or keep it for next time. If you haven't worked with one of these, they're very safe, cut a thin kerf, and work by twisting the bandsaw blade so the length of the cutoff isn't limited. If the roll is thicker, and decent metal fabricator in the area will have one with greater capacity.

Thanks a bunch Jim for this and the link I will definately look seriously at this as We are moving into another stage of our operation where 30 x40 murals will be important and wanted.

[bob carnie]

Thanks a bunch Jim for this and the link I will definately look seriously at this as We are moving into another stage of our operation where 30 x40 murals will be important and wanted.

Looks like 30 x 40 paper safes are no longer available, anyone know where I may find one for purchase.

[willwilson]

John, that is one hell of a setup. Do you have plans on that single tray processor or could you post more photos?

Jim, vertical bandsaw would work well I think. You would probably want new to not contaminate things with metal shavings from previous use. Bob, the vertical bandsaw have a feature that allows you to set the speed of the cut automatically. You could test on some wrapping paper of wallpaper or similar.

Bob, your posts always inspire me to get out a role of paper and print big. Thanks for hanging around here and contributing so much to the community.

[Jim Andrada]

Given the tight wrap on a new roll from the factory I dont think you'd have much problem with crud getting very far into the paper. One reason I suggested the metal cutting saw on a stand is that the roll stays stationary and the only thing that moves in a constrained arc is the handle of the saw (and the cutting blade of course,) but one hand is only on the handle and hopefully the other hand is holding the roll far enough away from the cutting area.

By the way, I was working for IBM at the time and they asked me to go to Japan for three months to mange a new product announcement for Asia - Pacific. Announcement schedule kept slipping and net was I stayed in Japan six years, learned the language, and got married (Still together 34 years later.) Never built the boat, but I still have the saw. Life happens.

[Richard Wasserman]

Might it not be simpler to cut down rolls of paper with a handsaw? Maybe something like this with relatively fine teeth? https://garrettwade.com/product/11-rip-crosscut-ryoba-saw

No sparks from a motor and you can work slowly and carefully—safer in dim light,

[bob carnie]

Might it not be simpler to cut down rolls of paper with a handsaw? Maybe something like this with relatively fine teeth? https://garrettwade.com/product/11-rip-crosscut-ryoba-saw

No sparks from a motor and you can work slowly and carefully—safer in dim light,

Not a bad idea as well make a jig for it so it cuts. I have some really good young McGyuivers around me who would be up to try this, I remember when I first did this on a table saw we wrapped with paper and tape the are we cut, the fibres were not problematic. Like I said
I am afraid of saws so this type of solution has always been a kind of last resort. Years ago there were companies in my industry that would cut down rolls to specific sizes.
I may also be looking for a Roll easel to handle this problem..

Bob

[Doremus Scudder]

Just a random thought, Bob, but have you asked Ilford if they would cut a roll down for you? Who knows?

Doremus

[bob carnie]

Just a random thought, Bob, but have you asked Ilford if they would cut a roll down for you? Who knows?

Doremus

The Canadian distributer asked them apparently and they said no.

[jnantz]

photo warehouse in Oxnard California might have suggestions for you or give you a good way to cut a long roll down to size. they used to cut and sell master rolls back in the day ..

[Jim Andrada]

Might it not be simpler to cut down rolls of paper with a handsaw? Maybe something like this with relatively fine teeth? https://garrettwade.com/product/11-rip-crosscut-ryoba-saw

No sparks from a motor and you can work slowly and carefully—safer in dim light,

Problem I see with a hand saw is keeping a right angle to the cut to avoid a wavy edge on the roll. It can be done but it takes a lot of practice. Now if one builds a miter box to use as a guide it should work. I'd use a fine tooth saw, maybe even one of the Japanese saws - very thin kerf and fine tooth. Cuts on the pull stroke.

Despite disparaging table saws I have one that would do the job safely because it has an auxiliary table that attaches to the sliding table and has adjustable stops up to about 9 feet. Machine weighs over 3000 pounds so it won't fall over. I've had that happen when cutting heavy stock with other saws.

[Gary Beasley]

I agree a miter box is the way to go, and a fine tooth saw to cut with. Easy to pack away when not needed. How big is the the roll? Might need a good sized saw to get a decent stroke length. Miter box should probably have a closed end for the roll to butt against to keep the cut consistent.

[LabRat]

Sawing is the worst idea... Will throw a cloud of paper dust over everything and the roll...

Cutting with a razor knife, large cutter, or just working with the oversize some way is needed... And too much pre-handling will create dimples and creases beforehand...

Steve K

[Jim Andrada]

https://www.yys-machinery.com/product/roll-paper-cutting-machine/

There are circular saw blades made specifically for cutting roll paper by the way - actually more of a circular knife.

[bob carnie]

Sawing is the worst idea... Will throw a cloud of paper dust over everything and the roll...

Cutting with a razor knife, large cutter, or just working with the oversize some way is needed... And too much pre-handling will create dimples and creases beforehand...

Steve K

I have already done this in the past and it worked very well, I am just afraid of saws but I have friends who are not and very skilled.

[bob carnie]

https://www.yys-machinery.com/product/roll-paper-cutting-machine/

There are circular saw blades made specifically for cutting roll paper by the way - actually more of a circular knife.

Ok now we are talking thanks Jim I will look into this.

[Drew Wiley]

I've sold (and seriously tested) a variety of portable roll good cutters - some with round rotating knives, some with octagonal rotating ones, others with reciprocal wavy bread knives. I wouldn't take that route. A more stationary roll cutter holder would make way more sense in this case, like the one Jim linked. You could also check a general packaging source like ULine to see if they have a selection of these. Or used graphics equipment suppliers might have discounted versions.

[bob carnie]

I've sold (and seriously tested) a variety of portable roll good cutters - some with round rotating knives, some with octagonal rotating ones, others with reciprocal wavy bread knives. I wouldn't take that route. A more stationary roll cutter holder would make way more sense in this case, like the one Jim linked. You could also check a general packaging source like ULine to see if they have a selection of these. Or used graphics equipment suppliers might have discounted versions.

I think this is the route I am going, I may have to make a custom light box as its really hard to find a oversize one. Doran is no longer making them.

[Drew Wiley]

Hmm. Are you referring to a 30X40 inch paper safe? Should be easy to make. I have an old Doran one still in use, with about a mile of thickness of black bookbinding tape atop the width hinge to keep it still totally dark. They aren't all that rugged over time.

[bob carnie]

Hmm. Are you referring to a 30X40 inch paper safe? Should be easy to make. I have an old Doran one still in use, with about a mile of thickness of black bookbinding tape atop the width hinge to keep it still totally dark. They aren't all that rugged over time.

Yes I think we are going to have our bookbinding friends make a big lighttight box, 32 x 44 inside

[John Layton]

Yup...my 30x40 paper safe is also starting to leak - time to get out the black tape!

[Drew Wiley]

One of these days I should just get some more 1/4 inch thick black Sintra sheeting and be done with it. It would be a simple afternoon project. But the only thing I did with scrap Sintra this past month was to make another nice waterproof cat house for the porch.

[Tin Can]

glad I bought 36" Doran NOS and smaller

paper safes

Free shipping!

almost a decade ago

[MartinP]

The Canadian distributer asked them apparently and they said no.

Fotoimpex have finishing tools available for their own products, and are an Ilford reseller. Might it be worth asking them if they could do the trimming job?

[Mal Paso]

Fotoimpex have finishing tools available for their own products, and are an Ilford reseller. Might it be worth asking them if they could do the trimming job?

At some level there have to be roll to roll paper slitters.

[Drew Wiley]

All kinds of automated machinery is available for the right price. But that price, along with the space such equip takes up, and the needed maintenance, might be a bit too much.

[Mal Paso]

Ilford's manufacturing has to have slitters and sheeters, that would be the place to do it. Find out what the minimum order is for a custom cut. Maybe get their PR department involved.