Dektol staining of resin paper???

[PrairiePhotographer]

I am printing on Ilford Multigrade RC Warmtone paper. After working with Ilford Multigrade developer, I decided to experiment with Dektol. I like the results with Dektol except for the slightly tea-colored border it leaves (vs. the strong white border which results from the Multigrade developer). Any advice on how to avoid this or correct it would be appreciated.

Here is my process:

1. Split grade exposure using 00 and 5 new Ilford filters
2. Develop in Dektol for 1 minute at 68 degrees
3. Stop bath for about 10 seconds
4. Fixer for 45 seconds
5. Hypo for 45 seconds
6. Quick rinse in tap water
5. Second fixer bath for 45 seconds
6. Hypo for 30 seconds
7. Water bath for 45 minutes (in a print washing tank)

Note that I started with a fresh, unopened bag of Dektol bought this week from a reputable retailer. The bag contents had a yellow hue to it; perhaps that is a factor (?).

I prefer the coloration Dektol produces for the core print (a wedding picture of my son and daughter in law), but don't like the tea-colored border.

Thanks for any advice.

Howard

[paulbarden]

When you say "Hypo", what exactly do you mean? Hypo is one of the common names for Sodium thiosulfate, a fixer agent. I doubt you're using three fixers. If you're using a hypo clearing agent between fixers, that isn't standard practice and could be leading to staining of the prints. And you're killing your second fixer if you take a print straight from hypo clear into the fix.

[Duolab123]

Dektol is best for 2 minutes @68F

[Willie]

Sounds like your Dektol is bad. The dry chemicals should not be discolored.

[jnantz]

I am not sure if they fixed their dektol problem but for a while there when it was mixed up it was as dark as chocolate milk.
it was suggested there was nothing wrong with it, but it stained paper and didn't work right. the ilford developer is good stuff
if you like it's results stick with that, or it might be fun to get the stock ingredients and mix up dektol ( D72 ) from scratch, you probably won't have this same trouble.
if you mix it from scratch, don't bother getting lab grade sodium carbonate, just go to Walmart or your local grocery store and get a box of
arm and hammer super washing soda, it costs pennies compared to lab grade and it works fine. you can use it to sort of clean your darkroom trays too...

[Michael R]

Dektol in good working order should not discolour or stain anything. In fact it should function virtually identically to the Multigrade developer OP was using before.

There have been various issues over the past few years with some of the manufactured Kodak-branded powdered chemicals including Dektol. Perhaps one of these problems (or something else such as faulty storage at the retailer level etc.) is the reason for the staining - incidentally Dektol powder should basically be white or very slightly off-white at worst.

As an aside there are other potential problems as well as mistakes in OPs processing workflow. I suggest going back to Ilford’s straight forward processing directions.

[Robert Bowring]

It sounds to me that you are under developing and over fixing. Ilford Multigrade developer instructions say 1 to 3 minutes at a dilution of 1:9. Ilford Rapid Fixer instructions say 30 seconds at a dilution of 1:4. Why are you fixing so much? When all else fails follow the instructions.

[paulbarden]

For that matter, why are you washing the prints for 45 minutes after Hypo Clearing? Ten minutes would be more than enough for RC paper.

[Oren Grad]

Recommended fixing time for the Ilford RC papers is 30 seconds in film-strength fixer (if you're using Ilford products, it's either Hypam or Rapid Fixer at 1+4), and recommended wash is 2 minutes. Note the following warnings from the Ilford data sheet:

There is no benefit in extending fixation beyond the recommended time; some loss of print quality might be seen when long fixing times are given due to image etching. Also, long fixing times will affect the image colour of the paper.

Prolonged immersion in water can cause edge penetration and print curl with resin coated papers; for this reason, avoid wet times longer than 15 minutes.

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/MULTIGRADE-RC-Papers-J20.pdf

[nolindan]

Border staining can be due to active developer in the print emulsion reacting with the dissolved silver in the fixing bath.

If this is indeed the cause of the staining then using acid stop bath for 30 seconds should make the problem go away.

[Doremus Scudder]

I am printing on Ilford Multigrade RC Warmtone paper. After working with Ilford Multigrade developer, I decided to experiment with Dektol. I like the results with Dektol except for the slightly tea-colored border it leaves (vs. the strong white border which results from the Multigrade developer). Any advice on how to avoid this or correct it would be appreciated.

Here is my process:

1. Split grade exposure using 00 and 5 new Ilford filters
2. Develop in Dektol for 1 minute at 68 degrees
3. Stop bath for about 10 seconds
4. Fixer for 45 seconds
5. Hypo for 45 seconds
6. Quick rinse in tap water
5. Second fixer bath for 45 seconds
6. Hypo for 30 seconds
7. Water bath for 45 minutes (in a print washing tank)

Note that I started with a fresh, unopened bag of Dektol bought this week from a reputable retailer. The bag contents had a yellow hue to it; perhaps that is a factor (?).

I prefer the coloration Dektol produces for the core print (a wedding picture of my son and daughter in law), but don't like the tea-colored border.

Thanks for any advice.

Howard

Lots of opinions here. most of which I concur with.

Firstly, but unrelated to your staining problem: You seem to have confused the fixing procedures needed for fiber-base paper with those needed for RC paper. You don't need a two-bath fixing regime with RC paper. If you follow the Ilford fixing method of using Rapid Fixer at the 1+4 dilution, 30 seconds is all that is really needed. However, since there is no chance of fixer soaking into the paper base, a bit longer won't hurt. I can't imagine that your 45 seconds would degrade the image appreciably, if at all. The second fix is simply not needed. Do follow the manufacturer's recommendations for capacity. Really, though, think of RC paper more like film; it's only the emulsion that absorbs any chemicals; the base is non-porous. For that reason, the processing of RC paper is more like film than paper.

Now, if you're not using a rapid fixer (you don't mention which fixer you use), but use a powdered fixer (sodium-thiosulfate based) then you will, indeed need to fix longer. Again, follow the manufacturer's recommendations for time and capacity. And, if you are using a different dilution for your fixer than the "film-strength" dilution of 1-4 (or whatever, if you're not using Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam), then you need to fix longer. How long will be in the instructions.

Dektol usually needs longer than one minute to do its job. If you like the tonalities you're getting at one minute it might be because you're "snatching" the print a bit early from the developer, i.e., before development reaches "completion," which results in a bit less contrast and a warmer image tone. If this is what you're liking, then you'd be better off with a warm-tone developer to start with. Do a bit of research on warm-tone developers and try one.

Personally, I'd stop for longer - at least 30 seconds. Not stopping the developer completely could be the cause of your staining. Active developer carried over into the fix often causes staining of the emulsion. This would be the first thing I'd try to eliminate the staining.

When you say "Hypo," I'm assuming you mean Hypo Clearing Agent or some other kind of wash aid. Again, these are not strictly necessary with RC paper, but they won't hurt and will reduce washing time a little. And, don't worry about carrying a wash-aid like Hypo Clearing Agent into the second fix; it's just sodium sulfite and won't hurt the fix in the small amounts that get carried over. Still, it's not needed before a second fix and a second fix isn't needed at all for RC papers. Save yourself some time and space and just use one fix at the proper dilution for the proper time (and capacity).

If extending the time in the stop bath (and do use an acid stop at the recommended dilution) does not cure the staining problem, then the problem is likely with your Dektol. There have been problems with Kodak chemistry lately. I've stopped using just about everything from them except Indicator Stop and Rapid Selenium Toner.

If you like the tonalities you get from Dektol, try Ilford Bromophen. It will last a bit longer, give a bit better shadow detail and similar image tone to Dektol.

If you really like Dektol better, then mix your own. D-72 is easy to mix and has just a few ingredients, which, once purchased, end up being lots cheaper in the long run. I mix D-72 and ID-62 from scratch with simple spoon recipes. I'd be happy to share them with you if you're interested.

Oh, one more thing just occurred to me: Maybe you like the highlights in the image just because they are stained? That would give them a warmth and a bit of a "glow" like old warm-base papers had. If so, try Foma papers; their emulsions are a bit warmer in the whites even though the paper base is still "white."

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[PrairiePhotographer]

Thank you for the advice and perspectives. I've enjoyed learning film photography and am captivated by its many details. The long history of film photography also fascinates me; I enjoy learning from the many people that share and add to the accumulated knowledge. I also enjoy working with equipment that first captured an image 75 years ago.

Reading this community's responses to my original post, I see that I a) probably changed too many details simultaneously and b) confused important details (such as what processes work with fiber paper vs. resin).

Looking back on my journey, my problems started when my prints had a pink cast to them. They didn't turn pink immediately, but that occurred only a few days after drying. After reading this forum and the Ansel Adams books (yes, I am at that level of the basics -- not to speak disrespectfully of his books, which I think highly of; more to say that those books are probably an obvious starting point for many), I figured I had a fixer problem. I took a few steps at the same time:

1) Switched out my powder-form Kodak fixer for liquid Ilford Rapid Fixer
2) Got serious about washing my prints. I found a second hand print washer on eBay which I think works well
3) Studied Ansel Adams' instructions in The Print (page 85 of my edition) that called for the Hypo Clearing Agent and repeat fixing

I thought I had worked through those steps to the point that the process was under control (i.e., achieving acceptable results) with Ilford Multigrade Developer, although now I realize this procedure probably applies to fiber paper, not resin.

While I felt the process was reasonably under control, I wasn't completely happy with the print, which led me to experiment with Dektol. Perhaps this gets closer to my root challenge: I am creating a photo album of my son and daughter-in-law's wedding. I am trying to eek the most out of "muddy" negatives (I probably made some mistakes in either or both of the photo taking and development stages). So I (sort of) learned split grade printing, which has helped a lot. I was hoping that Dektol would get me one step closer to a print that really glows. Things seem to be heading in the right direction accept for the "tea stain borders" that I described.

Based on the advice provide in this forum, I intend to try a few things:

1) Longer development in Dektol, longer stop bath, 30 second fix in Ilford Rapid Fixer, skip the hypo and second bath, shorter final wash
2) Try Ilford Bromophen
3) Hopefully one of the above steps will enable me to deliver a nice wedding album (don't worry; they hired a real photographer. My album is a personal gift (one that I enjoy immensely). If not, I may try Foma paper (and will down the road regardless)
4) If I stick with Dektol, I may try to mix my own (this is consistent with what I find fascinating about this craft).

Thanks again for all the advice. I won't be able to get back into the darkroom for a few days. I'll report back after I do.

Howard

[LabRat]

I think most of the comments here are from those who print from a "fiber", not RC process... RC is a different animal species that require a different approach/timing in process...

First, printing on RC is like cooking food in a microwave, works fast, very little latitude without much control when in the wet step... Fibre is like slow cooking where wet step variations can alter values slightly... (Short or long development on fiber can coax different values (highlight/shadow) on print...)

First important point is a RC paper is like a playing card with a thin emulsion that need an exact exposure to balance highlight and shadow exposure to just expose enough highlight detail for the developer to develop something on, and low values not excessive to just print the shadows uniformly dark... The balance point is moved by altering contrast filtration slightly...

Developing/

Print is developed to barely short of where Dmax occurs, and excess development dosen't push highlights, just starts to blob the Dmax areas up the scale (mushy)... And excessive development starts to penetrate into the print base causing staining sooner or later with oxidized developer possibly staining... Most developers/dilutions full develop in about a minute...

Stop bath/

Is short enough to neutralize the developer for the fixing step, as to not "damage" the fixer and cease all developing action...

Fixer/

Enough to remove excess halides from super thin emulsion leaving just the exposed image...

Washing/

Too long washing starts to penetrate paper base, trapping moisture within that can cause swelling/blistering under extreme conditions, or permanent waves on sheet in display...

Discoloration problem probably due to packaged developer oxidation during mixing that is starting to penetrate paper base... Fresh home mixed developers tend to mix into an almost clear solution that tends to not stain papers (fibre or RC)... You can prevent some mixing oxidation with commercial liquid or powder developers by dissolving a pinch of sodium sulfite in your mix solution to dissolve excess oxygen before mixing starts... Or try different developers like PQ formulas that the oxidation is partly invisible, producing cleaner base results...

And read the paper's developing/wet step instructions again carefully, especially for max timing in every wet step & wash...

Steve K

[Rod Klukas]

As Oren mentioned above, over fixing creates the issue of removing the residual fixer in the wash.
30 seconds with continuous agitation especially with RC paers and 1 minute with Fibre seem quite sufficient.

Rod