Nagaoka or Tachihara

[Matus Kalisky]

Hello,

excuse me for bothering you about these cameras again, but here : http://cgi.ebay.de/Nagaoka-extrem-handliche-leichte-4x5-Laufbodenkamera_W0QQitemZ120000171754QQcategoryZ8277QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
is a Nagaoka 4x5 camera just being sold that seems to have also the front swing. I contacted the seller and he told me that it has both front AND rear swing. Up to now I have not seen any Nagaoka camera with this capability. I asked the seller for more pictures that would show the standards better.
What is you opinion?

I was already decided to go for a new Tachihara from BadgerGraphic or mpex as used Tachiharas are usually sold for not much less than new ones, but this one is tempting if the swings are really there.

My anybody comment on the rigidity of these two cameras (please, do not start to comapre them with metal field cameras or monorails or cameras that cost 4 times as much which are of course more rigid)

thanks

MAtus

[Bill_1856]

Go for it! I've used a non-swinging Nagaoka for over 30 years, and am quite happy with it. Unlike my Technika it is NOT a workhouse to be used with big, heavy, long lenses. Use it gently, with small, light lenses no longer than 240mm (front gets wobbely when extended more than half the length of the track).

[steve simmons]

The important movements are front and rear swing and tilt. With these you can crate rise and fall and shift. If the camera has the swing and tilt movements you will be fine.

steve simmons
www.viewcamera.com

[Matus Kalisky]

- Bill-

well, the question is how high will it go. I can get brand new Tachi for $600 what may be after shipping to Germany a bit less than 600 euro (with a little luck with the customs).
From your commnent I deduce that the Nagaoka is not only lighter but also somewhat less rigid than Tachi. I actually would like to be (later, maybe?) to use 300mm lens (nikkor or fuji), but maybe 240mm (fujinon a) is not such I big difference. Of course I can not judge now. I want to start with some 120 - 135 (super symmar 120 HM is a holly grail here, just too expensive) mm lens as I prefere 35mm lesnes with smal format. I want to shoot landscapes and some cityscapes and a bit of everything.

[Geert]

Don't bid on it, I'm watching that one for canibalisation.

G

[Scott Davis]

Skip them both and get a Shen Hao. It is beefier (a little heavier, but not too much so). You can use a 240 with it, or a 300 telephoto. I have a Fuji 300 T f8 telephoto that works great. The Shen does not get wobbly even at full bellows extension. You'll be able to get a new one on Ebay for about $600 US, shipped to you from China.

[Oren Grad]

Matus, I'm a huge fan of the Nagaoka, but the main reason to get one is if you want to absolutely minimize the weight. As a secondary benefit, it also opens and closes really quickly and easily - because of the folding design and the way they set up the detents, you can do it blindfolded. At least I can... ;) But it's definitely on the delicate side - it can last a long time, but you do need to handle it carefully. Also, it wouldn't be my first choice if you intend to make extensive use of a 300.

If a Nagaoka weren't available at a good price, I'd probably just get a new Tachihara. IMO the Shen-Hao is too heavy for a 4x5 wood-field, but that's purely a matter of personal taste.

[Joseph O'Neil]

I just bought myself a new Tachihara about 2 weeks ago from Badger, and I very happy with that choice. A few reason I went that way:

1) Condition - you never are 100% sure of what you are getting off Ebay, and exactly as you pointed out, the price of used Tachiharas on Ebay is so close to a new one from Badger or MPEX, why bother?

2) Weight - I looked real closely at Shen-Hao,a nd came real close to buying a used Toyo a couple of times (until the car broke down and ...grrr..), but in hindsight, the Tachihara won out for me because of weight. I did a 5 mile hike the other day, and at the end of the hike, every pound, every ounce counts.

Unless that camera goes real cheap, I would stay the course with a new Tachihara. Wood field cameras, if properly looked after, can last a long time, but ones I have seen in person for sale often look a little shop worn and beat on, something you cannot always tell from Ebay photos.

The other thing too about a new camera fomr Badger or MPEX, you get the thing right away,a nd you are up and running right form the start. No testing or worrying if the bellows has pinhole light leaks, no worry aobu ta stripped or too tight bear or knob, etc, etc. Unless you get the camera cheap, or you can inspect the thing in person, it's not worth it unless you get a good deal.

joe

[Brian Ellis]

You haven't explained what it is about the Nagaoka with front and rear swings that causes you to be interested in it rather than the Tachihara that also has front and rear swings. If you're a serious backpacker - i.e. you hike all day and longer - I guess saving a pound and a half or so of weight could be important. However, based only on hearsay since I've never even a Nagaoka, the Tachihara (which I have owned) will be better built, more solid, and more precise than the Nagaoka, plus it will be usable with lenses ranging from 65mm (maybe even shorter) to 300mm normal and 400mm telephoto (all of which I used with my Tachihara). To me it's an easy decision, especially when one is used and the other is new and one is bought from a known reputable dealer and the other is bought on ebay.

[sanking]

Matus, I'm a huge fan of the Nagaoka, but the main reason to get one is if you want to absolutely minimize the weight. As a secondary benefit, it also opens and closes really quickly and easily - because of the folding design and the way they set up the detents, you can do it blindfolded. At least I can... ;) But it's definitely on the delicate side - it can last a long time, but you do need to handle it carefully. Also, it wouldn't be my first choice if you intend to make extensive use of a 300.

If a Nagaoka weren't available at a good price, I'd probably just get a new Tachihara. IMO the Shen-Hao is too heavy for a 4x5 wood-field, but that's purely a matter of personal taste.

I too am a huge fan of the Nagaoka. I have had a 5X7 Nagaoka, with both 5X7 and 4X5 backs, since about 1982. I would have to say that it is my favorite camera of all time. It is remarkably light (less than three lbs) and folds into a package about 7.5"X7.5"X2.75", making it an ideal piece of equipment for backpacking and for traveling by air. I carry it in a Tenba backpack with four or five lenses, 8-10 holders, exposure meter, etc. and the whole package is remarkably light and compact.

You might get the idea that the Nagoka is flimsy, but if treated well it will last a long time, as has mine. On the tripod it sets up with good rigidity. As for movements, there are plenty for landscape photography, and adequate for some architectural work. It has rear tilt and swing, front tilt and swing, and front rise and fall. The 5X7 model that I have will focus a lens down to 90mm, but of course you don't have much use of the bellows for rise or fall with a lens this short. Bellows draw is somewhat limited, as the longest lens I can use on the 5X7 is 300mm.

I would be concerned about the bellows because it was built with very light material and after a decade or two may develop pin-holes at the corners. Mine did, and I repaired it by running a piece of bookbinders tape 3" wide down each of the sides of the bellows. It should be good for another 10-15 years before I would need to replace the bellows.

If you are looking for something very light and compact with a good range of movmeents it is really hard to beat the Nagaoka. And BTW, Ikedas appear to have come from the same shop as the features are almost identical.

Sandy

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I have used both cameras and each has its ups and downs, like any of them. I prefer the Tachihara as it while take a bit more abuse ( I have used and abused one for 12 years with no problems) than the Nagaoka (IMO). I have used lenses from 75mm to 300mm on the Tachi with no problems and can highly recommend the camera. I enjoyed using the Nagaoka which I borrowed from a friend for a week and while I liked the compact size and weight it seemed a bit more delicate in construction. I used only a 150mm and 210mm lens on the Nagaoka which it handled with no problems.

Good luck and I hoped this helps.

[Kevin Klazek]

Matus, I bought a Tachihara about a year ago. I am VERY pleased with the camera. I do not find it flimsy at all and is quite rigid (for a wood field). I am sure over time and use things will loosen up but that is normal. I looked at a used Nagaoka at that time in a local shop but did not buy it as it was flimsy and the bellows was questionable. Go with the new Tachi and you will not be disappointed.

Kevin

[Matus Kalisky]

- all -

First of all, I got wrong the seller (very kind person) and we made it clear that this camera does not have any swings.
I do not wont to jump in time, but it seems that I will have a good chance to get nearly brand new - I have already seen the pictures and it really looks new - Tachihara and I would spare myself from the troubles connected to shipping overseas and hoping not to pay the taxes. I will let you know as soon as this clears out. Than I grab some nice Fujinon 125 or 135 W and the necessary accesories and can finaly start out. Steve Simmons book is already too long in the drawer.

- Geert -

What do you want to do with that poor thing ?

MAtus..

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Skip them both and get a Shen Hao. It is beefier (a little heavier, but not too much so).

Nothing against the She-Hao, it's a great value and has additional features (Grafloc back, interchangeable bellows, etc.) not found on the other wooden cameras in the same price range, however, It's substanitially heavier than the Nagaoka - over twice as heavy, in fact. If lightweight is your goal, go with the Nagaoka (or an Anba, Toho or Gowland). If you want a full-featured, affordable camera and don't mind the weight, the Shen-Hao would be a better choice.

Concerning camera weights, I always take the manufacturers' weight specs with a grain of salt. Some manufacturers' specs are accurate and some are very optimistic. I prefer actual weights over specs. For example, the actual weight of the Shen-Hao HZX-45AII I tested was 5 lb. 7¾oz. I no longer have my Nagaoka (same model as the one shown in the linked auction listing), but I know it was approximately 2 lb. 10 oz. I also had, for several years, a very similar Anba Ikeda (gold plating, red bellows and geared rear swing). The geared rear swing added about 4 oz. (actual camera weight 2 lb. 14¼ oz.).

In addition to the light weight, another plus for backpackers is the Nagaoka (and similar Anba Ikeda) fold down smaller than any other 4x5 camera I have seen - much thinner than the Tachihara or Shen-Hao. The Nagaoka takes up less room in the pack even than my Toho.

I regularly used a lightweight 300mm lens (Nikkor M) with my Anba with no problems. No, it's not the most rigid combo around, but is certainly usable with reasonable caution. The final inch or so of extension gets real wobbly, but since the Anba had 325mm of extension and the Nikkor only needed needed 290mm of extension for infinity focus, I usually had a bit to spare before reaching that last wobbly inch. Better yet, use the 300mm M (or 300mm Fujinon C) with a top-hat style lens board and you should be fine in all but extreme conditions.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

First of all, I got wrong the seller (very kind person) and we made it clear that this camera does not have any swings.

Obviously, you and Geert are looking at two different cameras. The one you linked to in your original post does have front and rear swings - at least the Nagaoka version of "swings". On this camera (and on the Nagaoka and Anba I owned) swing is not accomplished in the traditional way - a single pivot point that the standards rotate about. On the Nagaoka, swing is accomplised by moving the two sides of the standard in opposite directions (or holding one side stationary and moving the other side forward or backward). The same mechanisms used for front and rear swings are also used to get the standards closer together for wide angle use. You can see these controls in the photos that accompany the auction listing. On the front standard, there are four little knobs (two on ecah side) mounted near wear the front standard attaches to the focusing bed. The knobs for the rear swing are located on the sides of the camera (one on each side). There is a long slot in the metal work that allows the rear standard to move forward (either both sides in unison to reduce bellows extension, or independently to achieve rear swing).

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Since the photos on the eBay listing will eventually disappear, here's a photo of my former Anba Ikeda that shows the controls I described above.

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/images/anba1.jpg

Note, on this particular model the rear "swings" are geared. So, it has two additional knobs (one on each side). One set locks/unlocks the movement. The other is the knob is the one that drives the gear.

Kerry

[Colin Robertson]

Sorry to hi-jack a thread, BUT- Scott Davis- I see you are using a Fujinon 300 T on a Shen Hao. I am currently agonising over this purchase. As I undrestand it, this lens will focus to infinity with about 200mm of bellows. On my Shen that would leave about 100mm to play with. How close does that take you. Head and shoulders portrait close?? Thanks.

[Bill_1856]

A good, clean Nagaoka should go for no more than $400 maximum. IMO you may save even more weight because you can use a somewhat lighter tripod, (as well as the mere 2.5# camera). I use a 10" (250mm) Tele-Raptar with no problem.

[sanking]

In addition to the light weight, another plus for backpackers is the Nagaoka (and similar Anba Ikeda) fold down smaller than any other 4x5 camera I have seen - much thinner than the Tachihara or Shen-Hao. The Nagaoka takes up less room in the pack even than my Toho.

Kerry

This is even more true for the 5X7 version of the Ikeda/Nagaoka. The Tachihara 5X7 and Shen-Hao are about three times as heavy as the Nagaoka and fold down to about 10"X10"X5", and weigh from 8-9 lbs, in contrast to the 7.5"X7.5"X2.75" and three lbs of the Nagaoka. If you are really into backpacking or reducing weight to a minimum for trips flying in the US or abroad there is really nothing that beats the Nagaoka in 4X5 or 5X7 size as the start of a really compact and light weight system.

Sandy

[Matus Kalisky]

- all-

thanks to all of you. The only question about Nagaoka is - how m uch will I miss the swing option. Yes, I can flip the camera, but then there is not shift. I would probably rather have it then later feel pity because I don't. I am not considering 5x7 mostly because of price of the film and delvelopement (already 4x5 slide will cost me 5 euro here in Germany) and also availability of the film.

- Kerry - Thanks for the photo and very nice explanation. I was really wondering what are those knobs for. Some of the Nagaoka cameras I have seen do not have this.

Matus

[Ralph Barker]

. . . how much will I miss the swing option. . . .

I think a lot depends on the style of work one does, Matus. Personally, I couldn't imagine doing without swings, as I often find I want to rotate the plane of focus on the horizontal axis as well as the vertical. That's mostly for "tighter" compositions or smaller scenes, however, not for "grand" landscapes.

All of these things are trade-offs between size, weight, and expense. Hence, they are really quite personal. What works for me, for example, might not be the best choice for you or anyone else.

[sanking]

- all-

thanks to all of you. The only question about Nagaoka is - how m uch will I miss the swing option. Yes, I can flip the camera, but then there is not shift. I would probably rather have it then later feel pity because I don't. I am not considering 5x7 mostly because of price of the film and delvelopement (already 4x5 slide will cost me 5 euro here in Germany) and also availability of the film.

- Kerry - Thanks for the photo and very nice explanation. I was really wondering what are those knobs for. Some of the Nagaoka cameras I have seen do not have this.

Matus

Matus,

Just to clarify, and Kerry mentioned this earlier, the Nagaoka camera you are looking at *has* both back and front swings. On the front you simply loosen the two knobs on the side of the camera you want to swing, and move the front standard back and forth. On the back, you loosen the knob on the side of the camera and do the same.

Obviously if you are doing work that requires very extensive movements and longer bellows draw the Nagaoka won't get the job done. But for most landscape work I find it ideal because of the premium I place on weight and size.

A couple of years ago I purchased a 5X7 Shen-Hao. It was a great piece of equipment, very rigid, lots of bellows draw, and extensive movements, including shift on both the front and back. However, after using it for a few months I realized that it it was just too large and heavy for my specific needs. It is a great camera and one of the best values around in a new 5X7, but it just did not suit my needs. Fortunately there are many choices for different needs
.

Sandy

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

- all-

thanks to all of you. The only question about Nagaoka is - how m uch will I miss the swing option. Yes, I can flip the camera, but then there is not shift.

- Kerry - Thanks for the photo and very nice explanation. I was really wondering what are those knobs for. Some of the Nagaoka cameras I have seen do not have this.

Matus,

The Nagaoka in the link you provided in your original post DOES have the swing feature I described above. There is another one currently on the US eBay that has rear swing capability, but no front swings.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Matus,

The Camera Eccentric web site (a TREMENDOUS resource) has scans of a brochure for the 4x5 Nagaoka View Camera Model II posted on their site. This is the same model I originally had (before I replaced it with the Anba) and looks like the same one shown in that auction listing you linked.

You can find the Nagaoka brochure here (http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/nagaoka/nagaoka.html).

This page (http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/nagaoka/p2.html) has pictures and descriptions of all the movements, including the front and rear swing I tried to describe above.

Kerry

[Matus Kalisky]

- all -

So, I will soon become an owner of as-new (1 year old) Tchihara 45 GF.

:) I am happy :) .
Now I have to start to think about some lens, a few filmholders, loupe - and - film. I do not know yet wheter B&W or some scolor slide. I do not have any devices to develope at home so first I would have to check how much would that cost. I will also buy a darkcloath - probably BlackJacket as it seems to be reasonable to start out with a good solution. Oh well - tripod will be Benro M127 (we could not afford Gitzo) and head Novoflex Magicball 50 - et least for the beginning.

I want to thank you all for you help. But I will probably open a new thread about some nice 120 - 135 mm lens.

Matus..

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Congrats Matus!!!

I know you will be happy with your camera.