Telephoto Compression and “Super Sun” / Potato Masher Effect in LF?

[Kerosene Hat]

Has anyone shot the setting Sun in B&W and pursued the “potato masher” or oversized appearance one can get with long telephotos in small format? What considerations to take for sun and sky / filtration? I’ve shot the skyline here in Atlanta at the autumnal equinox(? The one that’s coming in a couple weeks) with the skyline as a backdrop in digital / APS-C-good results with a 500mm tele in that format, but I shot and printed color.

I’d like to take this challenge in LF and shoot B&W and color. Color is a bit more straightforward, but I’m thinking ND grad filter (maybe) and a Nikkor T-600/800 in 5x7. Considering B&W filtration has me stuck…a yellow filter may turnt the rapidly setting sun white (not an awful thing), as might an orange or red filter…an ND Grad (3 stops) seems like not a bad choice.

Has anyone shot such a scene in LF and any practical guidance? I’ll use faster film as the sun sinks quickly, and the real window of opportunity is just a few minutes…

Thanks for ideas and inspiration-and being a great community.

[Mark Sampson]

Sunsets in b/w are a real challenge. So is long telephoto work in LF. 800mm on 5x7 is only 4x normal... so the giant sun image isn't going to happen.
You might look to Ansel Adams; in "Examples" he writes about the filtering for the skies and the subject in his famous image of Denali.
It's also worth noting that even in "Moonrise over Hernandez" the image of the moon is quite small, even though he used a long (24"?) lens on his 8x10. My copy of that book isn't handy so I can't copy details for you right now.
And the autumnal equinox was 9/23, so the sun will be setting further south.
All the said, it's certainly worth a try. Keep us posted!

[ic-racer]

This should give an idea of how large the sun will be on 4x5 format:

242955

[Vaughan]

Do you have the Nikkor T ED 600mm lens with 800mm rear cell yet? Do you have a camera and tripod sturdy enough for it? It’s a huge and heavy lens.

[Kerosene Hat]

Mark, Racer and Vaughan-thank you so much. I have the front and rear cells for the Nikkor T 600/800 (just mounted on Linhof board) and was planning to test it on my Wisner 5x7 field camera. I don’t know if that’s strong enough (yet), but I doubt that the standard on my Wista 4x5 is…

[Lachlan 717]

500mm on APS-C is equivalent to approximately 806mm on 35mm/FF. 1.6 crop factor; 765mm on Nikon).

Ergo, to get the same perspective/compression/magnification /et al. on 5x7”, you would need approximately 4040mm FL/3862mm Nikon.

800mm on 5x7 is about 160mm on 35mm or 99.2mm on APs-C/105mm Nikon.

Nowhere near what you’re after…

[Kerosene Hat]

500mm on APS-C is equivalent to approximately 806mm on 35mm/FF. 1.6 crop factor; 765mm on Nikon).

Ergo, to get the same perspective/compression/magnification /et al. on 5x7”, you would need approximately 4040mm FL/3862mm Nikon.

800mm on 5x7 is about 160mm on 35mm or 99.2mm on APs-C/105mm Nikon.

Nowhere near what you’re after…

Lachlan, I've been thinking about this. Focal length is focal length; crop factors are another matter. A 600mm lens, from the same vantage point, will compress scenery the same no matter the format, we just have a larger image circle in LF.

I can exaggerate the effect w/ a 4x5 back on the 5x7 (or 612 back on a 4x5, but don't have the bed / bellows stability on the smaller rig).

I will likely get out this weekend and hope to have an image to test. As for sunsets in B&W, I will post an example from a beach sunset (no sun in frame) that came out rather nicely. Network issues prevent me at the moment...

Thank you all for your input!

[Corran]

If you are going up to Stone Mountain to shoot the sun behind Atlanta let me know! I've always wanted to do that. Sadly October/November is usually my busiest time at work so hasn't happened.

I've been wanting to shoot it with my Pentax 67, 500mm, and 1.4x or 2x TC. I think on LF you'll need something crazy huge as Lachlan mentioned. Perhaps the 720mm on 6x12 would be something interesting.

[reddesert]

This should give an idea of how large the sun will be on 4x5 format:

242955

Something is wrong with this (simulated 35mm overlaid on 4x5) image. The image of the sun is improperly scaled for focal length. You can tell because the image of the sun should be 10x linearly smaller in the "200mm" image than in the "2000mm" image, but it looks only about 3x smaller.

The sun's disk is about half a degree diameter or 1/110 radian. That means the diameter on film will be about 1/110 of the focal length. So for a 2000mm lens, you get about an 18mm diameter disk on film. The simulated 2000mm image shows the sun nearly filling the 24mm dimension - about 21mm image diameter. So that is maybe 10% exaggerated. For the 200mm image, the sun will be only about 1.8mm diameter on film, but the image shown is about 8-9mm diameter, so simulated 4 - 5 times too large.

As people say, perspective is a property of your viewpoint - "telephoto compression" comes from standing far away and excluding a lot of the foreground/sideground. For which you need to either use a long focal length lens, or crop a lot.

[Mal Paso]

With the 600-1200mm Nikkor T the bellows draw is 409mm for the 600mm rear element, 527mm for 800mm and 755mm for 1200mm. I started with a Cambo SF and adapted a SC bellows connector so I could use 2, 21 inch bellows. I recently found a rail extension to bring the monorail to 42". It will focus the 1200mm to about 25 feet. After the first outing I built 2 stabilizers for wind/vibration. Waiting on good atmospherics now.

243235

[Kerosene Hat]

If you are going up to Stone Mountain to shoot the sun behind Atlanta let me know! I've always wanted to do that. Sadly October/November is usually my busiest time at work so hasn't happened.

I've been wanting to shoot it with my Pentax 67, 500mm, and 1.4x or 2x TC. I think on LF you'll need something crazy huge as Lachlan mentioned. Perhaps the 720mm on 6x12 would be something interesting.

@Bryan, I'm looking at Friday or Saturday afternoon - let's go together, if possible! M: 404.747.0097. It's a once-in-6-months thing, and I figure might as well try in LF after doing it in digital APS-C long ago.

[Kerosene Hat]

Something is wrong with this (simulated 35mm overlaid on 4x5) image. The image of the sun is improperly scaled for focal length. You can tell because the image of the sun should be 10x linearly smaller in the "200mm" image than in the "2000mm" image, but it looks only about 3x smaller.

The sun's disk is about half a degree diameter or 1/110 radian. That means the diameter on film will be about 1/110 of the focal length. So for a 2000mm lens, you get about an 18mm diameter disk on film. The simulated 2000mm image shows the sun nearly filling the 24mm dimension - about 21mm image diameter. So that is maybe 10% exaggerated. For the 200mm image, the sun will be only about 1.8mm diameter on film, but the image shown is about 8-9mm diameter, so simulated 4 - 5 times too large.

As people say, perspective is a property of your viewpoint - "telephoto compression" comes from standing far away and excluding a lot of the foreground/sideground. For which you need to either use a long focal length lens, or crop a lot.

Fair. I whave a 450MM Nikkor and/or 19" Artar that can go on a 5x7 Wisner (formerly Steve Simmons', mojo = interesting, desert dust = moderate), with a 4x5" reducing back. No need to print full frame, just a challenge to do this shot w/ LF vs. APS-C and baby format. Plus, an excuse to hike a mile straight up a granite rock, as @Corran knows...

[Mark Sampson]

If you do this and have success, share the result with us, please!

[hasim495]

With the 600-1200mm Nikkor T the bellows draw is 409mm for the 600mm rear element, 527mm for 800mm and 755mm for 1200mm. I started with a Cambo SF and adapted a SC bellows connector so I could use 2, 21 inch bellows. I recently found a rail extension to bring the monorail to 42". It will focus the 1200mm to about 25 feet. After the first outing I built 2 stabilizers for wind/vibration. Waiting on good atmospherics now.

243235


I have the Nikkor T 600/800 and plan to test it on my Wisner 5x7. Your setup with the extended bellows and stabilizers is impressive! I'm considering using an ND Grad filter for better exposure balance with the setting sun. Any tips on minimizing vibration with such long focal lengths?

[Mal Paso]

I have the Nikkor T 600/800 and plan to test it on my Wisner 5x7. Your setup with the extended bellows and stabilizers is impressive! I'm considering using an ND Grad filter for better exposure balance with the setting sun. Any tips on minimizing vibration with such long focal lengths?

Other than bracing, sandbags, stand on the windward side and use a reasonably long cable release. This is the best deal I've ever had on sandbags. https://www.ebay.com/itm/161676170199 These are saddlebag style with a handle on top. Hang from the tripod or over a leg.

[Mark Sampson]

A golf umbrella, held just upwind by an assistant, has been a great help to me in similar situations.

[Mal Paso]

Eliminating the pan/tilt head would stiffen things up if all you did was landscapes. The centerpost doesn't rotate and the screw is fixed on my Manfroto so I went with cross bracing from the legs.