I need an extra wide lens

[PatrickMarq]

I have been walking past a building for years, beautiful building. Belongs in the past to a bank, and is now transformed into students apartments.
It has beautiful stairs and a chandelier. When there was a email on the outside I took a chance and asked if I could photograph it from the inside.
And yes it was possible.
But as the the building belongs to the city they are asking if its possible to create large prints of the images (lots of stress now)
After some scouting inside my 90mm is not large enough.

So I have found this 65mm lens. I don’t have another lensboards. The camera is a chamonix 45F-2. I can place the back closer to the lens if needed.
Time here is crucial if I order the lens this weekend, it will be arriving one week before I go shooting this building.

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/354816359615?hash=item529cb3fcbf:g:P2AAAOSwZElkZoH1&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8EwdYmT7OXt5XiYuw0C4ztS7vYbgMkGcxbR7dwyTdQICbvFG7fudA5Qn%2BFId0sAMgWzfYVAqOnL0oIacXL666zxZJZ6bXHEMlq6SAcoMiLURiCqXvlk2Rmro9SKPs8E6LAEt89%2B%2F70ZjxuY5%2FYdw9TR1AbggDCNP4gRZZ13fRFWkKtrKdoGtpBgJTbin5yV4QSRLCq8RVrz%2Bu4%2FwCIHWiiobeVP6xzsQfWGCqX2hfCnmpzKxI6babTDHjkbmyBlCo8Ew33lFNiUKb0%2F99osuKMQA9hDcWh7zt0R08deTLk3Ekc%2FBVmcqNdC0sbafgGLDSw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6CgmbTXYg

[PatrickMarq]

bit the bullet, to nervously now. I hope the lens arrives on time so I have a few day’s to test it.

[Tin Can]

Use larger format

I have shot inside bank vaults

[MartyNL]

Do you have the Chamonix bag bellows?
https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/accessories/bellows

[jnantz]

you might need a recessed lens board ...

[PatrickMarq]

I have the universal bellows, until now it works fine with the 90mm

[PatrickMarq]

Got a friend with a 3D printer, perhaps time to start designing a lensboards.

[MartyNL]

I have the universal bellows, until now it works fine with the 90mm

You've probably read that Chamonix recommends a wide angle bag bellows for lenses from 75mm and wider.
Let me assure you, this isn't a marketing ploy, you can't beat a good set of wide angle bellows for shorter focal lengths. I believe it's money well spent, a good investment for now and in the future. I wouldn't want to be without mine especially from +/- 90mm and below.
And certainly in the abscence of a recessed lensboard a bag bellows might be a necessity rather than a luxury.
You would think, Chamonix would have them in stock.

[xkaes]

Your Chamonix might use Technica boards, but if not, a replacement is inexpensive. In either case, make sure the hole for the shutter is correctly placed -- Chamonix holes might need to be centered or off-centered a certain amount.

As to focusing, your existing bellows might collapse enough to focus that lens to infinity. If not, you need a recessed board. Check your user manual for the minimum bellows distance and the FLANGE focal length of the lens.

The other issue is front standard movement. For that you may or may not need a bag bellows, but I don't think that will be of much help because I think that lens has a very small image circle. You should check it out. If the image circle barely covers 4x5, the lens will work for you, but a bag bellows won't help -- you will run outside of the image circle with any movement.

Check these out BEFORE buying a recessed board and/or bag bellows. You could end up throwing away your money. Well-meaning FORUM members can be very lose with other people's money.

[Mark J]

On paper, there's a few mm of movement available with that lens on 4x5, but it's pretty tight.

[Oren Grad]

Following up on the points made by xkaes:

The Chamonix 45F-2 specifications say minimum bellows draw of 52mm, so you should be OK without a recessed board. At maximum compression the standard bellows will probably allow little or no movement, but the 65/5.6 SA does not have an image circle large enough for much movement on 4x5 anyway. The question then becomes whether you require substantial movements in order to render the interior scenes the way you want them to look, or whether pointing the camera up and down where needed will produce an acceptable rendering.

If you really do need substantial movement to get the job done, you probably need the 72/5.6 SA-XL along with a bag bellows, which unfortunately will be much more expensive than the 65/5.6 that you linked.

One other question is whether you are photographing on negative or transparency film. If the latter, you might need to think about a center filter.

Good luck!

[MartyNL]

The point I wish to make is that a universal bellows is not a substitute for bag bellows. Both the over compression of the universal bellows and the consequent forces exerted upon the front and rear standards has the potential of damage to the bellows and / or camera and misalignment of the uprights. I would prefer to SAVE the o.p. from costly repair or replacement.

I have a 65mm schneider sa and there is as good as no room for movements on 4x5". And as mentioned, it's critical for the lens to be centred otherwise there will be vignetting due to the small image circle.

[Neal Chaves]

Following up on the points made by xkaes:

The Chamonix 45F-2 specifications say minimum bellows draw of 52mm, so you should be OK without a recessed board. At maximum compression the standard bellows will probably allow little or no movement, but the 65/5.6 SA does not have an image circle large enough for much movement on 4x5 anyway. The question then becomes whether you require substantial movements in order to render the interior scenes the way you want them to look, or whether pointing the camera up and down where needed will produce an acceptable rendering.

If you really do need substantial movement to get the job done, you probably need the 72/5.6 SA-XL along with a bag bellows, which unfortunately will be much more expensive than the 65/5.6 that you linked.

One other question is whether you are photographing on negative or transparency film. If the latter, you might need to think about a center filter.

Good luck!

Swing and tilt of the back place no demand on covering power and can be used effectively in architecture and interiors.

[Alan Klein]

You've probably read that Chamonix recommends a wide angle bag bellows for lenses from 75mm and wider.
Let me assure you, this isn't a marketing ploy, you can't beat a good set of wide angle bellows for shorter focal lengths. I believe it's money well spent, a good investment for now and in the future. I wouldn't want to be without mine especially from +/- 90mm and below.
And certainly in the abscence of a recessed lensboard a bag bellows might be a necessity rather than a luxury.
You would think, Chamonix would have them in stock.

I have a Chamonix 45H-1 4x5 with modified bag bellows that allows some more room over the standard bellows but not as much as the full bellows. My modifed gets a little tight with my Nikkor 90mm f/4.5 which is a big lens due to the 4.5 My 75mm Fujinon f/5.6 fits better. They both work just a little tight.

[Alan Klein]

Both my 75mm and 90mm lenses are center mounted on Chamonix wooden 4x5 boards.

[Alan Klein]

Just a reminder that your Chamonix 45F-2 has asymmetrical tilt on the rear standard if tilting the front becomes an issue.

[Oren Grad]

The point I wish to make is that a universal bellows is not a substitute for bag bellows. Both the over compression of the universal bellows and the consequent forces exerted upon the front and rear standards has the potential of damage to the bellows and / or camera and misalignment of the uprights. I would prefer to SAVE the o.p. from costly repair or replacement.

When his lens arrives, it will be easy enough for Patrick to determine whether the universal bellows on his camera causes that kind of strain on the standards when compressed to the FFD of his 65 SA, which is probably somewhat longer than the focal length. If so, then a bag bellows would certainly be wise.


Swing and tilt of the back place no demand on covering power and can be used effectively in architecture and interiors.

Good point. Patrick will need to figure out whether the scenes he wants to record will require parallel movements.

[Greg]

For what's it's worth... Years ago I had and used a 4x5 Chamonix with their Universal bellows and my 65mm SW Nikkor. The bellows never prevented me for making front standard movements (almost always rise).

[PatrickMarq]

Following up on the points made by xkaes:

The Chamonix 45F-2 specifications say minimum bellows draw of 52mm, so you should be OK without a recessed board. At maximum compression the standard bellows will probably allow little or no movement, but the 65/5.6 SA does not have an image circle large enough for much movement on 4x5 anyway. The question then becomes whether you require substantial movements in order to render the interior scenes the way you want them to look, or whether pointing the camera up and down where needed will produce an acceptable rendering.

If you really do need substantial movement to get the job done, you probably need the 72/5.6 SA-XL along with a bag bellows, which unfortunately will be much more expensive than the 65/5.6 that you linked.

One other question is whether you are photographing on negative or transparency film. If the latter, you might need to think about a center filter.

Good luck!

I completely did not think about a center filter. I have one for the 90mm

[PatrickMarq]

I’m going to take the images with HP5+ / Foma creative 200.

[PatrickMarq]

Just a reminder that your Chamonix 45F-2 has asymmetrical tilt on the rear standard if tilting the front becomes an issue.

Thank you for the reminder Alan, sometimes I forget this. Don’t use a lot of wide lenses.

[Mark J]

I completely did not think about a center filter. I have one for the 90mm
The one for your 90 will still help, try it with a step-up ring.

[PatrickMarq]

The one for your 90 will still help, try it with a step-up ring.

Thanks Mark

[Alan Klein]

The one for your 90 will still help, try it with a step-up ring.

I have a center filter for my 90mm. Will it help with my 75mm?

[xkaes]

I have a center filter for my 90mm. Will it help with my 75mm?

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/center.htm

[CatSplat]

Speaking from experience with the 65/5.6 Super Angulon on a 45F-2, it will focus just fine and is entirely usable with the universal bellows - bag bellows or a recessed lens board are by no means mandatory. At infinity focus it's pretty tight, but if you're shooting indoors you may be focused a bit closer than infinity and will gain yourself some extra wiggle room.

If you plan to use significant movements the bag bellows would be ideal, but if you only plan for minor adjustments the stock setup should be just fine.

[Robert Opheim]

I have photographed a number of buildings with wide angle lenses. I use a 90mm, 75mm,and a 135mm, mostly. Often for interior views, and for situations where there is only enough space to get the image from a certain angle. For tall buildings I most often use - front rise. The wider the wide angle lens the more distortion there can be toward the edges - especially noticeable with rounded shapes.

[xkaes]

If you plan to use significant movements the bag bellows would be ideal, but if you only plan for minor adjustments the stock setup should be just fine.

Not a problem with that lens, since the image circle limits movement to next to nothing -- as other responders and I have already mentioned.

[Mark J]

I have a center filter for my 90mm. Will it help with my 75mm?

Yes, as long as the pupil tracks across the filter as you go off-axis, there will be correction. Depending on how much bigger the filter is than standard, you might get 1.5 stops, or even 1 stop correction, from a 2-stop filter. The exposure compensation will be as stated for the CF because the attenuation in the centre is still the same. My guess is that you'd get around 1.5 stops from a 2-stop CF, from this combination.

[jnantz]

I've found it to be almost mandatory with anything wider than 90, I've never used one on a 90.

[xkaes]

The best approach is to test your lens before buying a CND filter -- because it depends on the lens and your taste, and they are not inexpensive. I provided a link (above) on how to run a simple test.

Somehow, Forum members are always loose with other people's money.

[Dan Fromm]

Yes, as long as the pupil tracks across the filter as you go off-axis, there will be correction. Depending on how much bigger the filter is than standard, you might get 1.5 stops, or even 1 stop correction, from a 2-stop filter. The exposure compensation will be as stated for the CF because the attenuation in the centre is still the same. My guess is that you'd get around 1.5 stops from a 2-stop CF, from this combination.

Fine answer, Mark, but incomplete. AFAIK all of the modern 75 and 90 mm lenses for 4x5 on the market cover 105 degrees. Schneider and Rodenstock recommend 1.5 stop CFs for theirs. The person whose question you answered has a 75 and a 90. There's no guarantee that the two have the same filter threads, so there's no guarantee that a CF that fits the person's 90 will fit its 75. A step up/down adapter might be possible but odds are it will vignette on the 75.

[Mark J]

Thank you for your appreciation of my fine answer, Dan !
I didn't say that all CF's are 2-stop ; I just said that if you have a 2-stop one for a 90 , then it could deliver about 1.5 stops when fitted to a 75. Obviously if it starts at 1.5 stops then the effect will be less.
Next point : of course they will be different filter threads - typically a 75mm SA is 67mm and a 90 is 82mm. The Schneider CF is a III for the 75 and a IV for the 90. You are correct about them being 1.5 stops.
I don't agree that a step-up ring will vignette, they normally open-up quite quickly from where they screw in, so they won't clip any more ( or perhaps as much ) as a single filter. I assume all 75's are able to take at least one filter - mine certainly is.

[Alan Klein]

I've found it to be almost mandatory with anything wider than 90, I've never used one on a 90.

Is your experience with BW and/or chromes and what difference if any?

[Alan Klein]

Fine answer, Mark, but incomplete. AFAIK all of the modern 75 and 90 mm lenses for 4x5 on the market cover 105 degrees. Schneider and Rodenstock recommend 1.5 stop CFs for theirs. The person whose question you answered has a 75 and a 90. There's no guarantee that the two have the same filter threads, so there's no guarantee that a CF that fits the person's 90 will fit its 75. A step up/down adapter might be possible but odds are it will vignette on the 75.

Dan, I have a Nikkor 90mm f/4.5 taking 82mm filters. I also have its center filter, a Schneider IV with 82mm inside thread and 105mm outside thread. Recommended stops is 1 1/2 per your charts. See link and picture. The 75mm is a Fujinon f/5.6 that takes a 67mm filter. You recommend a Schneider III with 1 1/2 stops. So would the IV work on the 75mm with an 67mm to 82mm step-up adapter with no vignetting? What about proper falloffs when the Schneider IV CF is use with the 75mm?

Also, what does the 105 degrees represent? Thanks.

[Mark J]

The III will be best and give you the 1.5 stop correction, but these are expensive items.
My advice on adapting larger ones was mainly aimed at the OP, Patrick , who looks like he has a fairly urgent job to do in a week or two.

[PatrickMarq]

For the shneider super-angulon 90mm I don’t feel the need for a CF for 4x5, just look at my images at : https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?62398-Cemeteries&p=1692250&viewfull=1#post1692250
But for my panorama’s with the ShenHao 6x17 it’s really nessesary.

[PatrickMarq]

The III will be best and give you the 1.5 stop correction, but these are expensive items.
My advice on adapting larger ones was mainly aimed at the OP, Patrick , who looks like he has a fairly urgent job to do in a week or two.

Mark, indeed lots of testing on a few days.

[Dan Fromm]

Alan, 105 degrees is the lens' angle of view.

[jnantz]

Is your experience with BW and/or chromes and what difference if any?

bw/chromes/c41. no issues ever, no vignetting even with VC movements (architectural, not pretzel) ..

[Alan Klein]

Fine answer, Mark, but incomplete. AFAIK all of the modern 75 and 90 mm lenses for 4x5 on the market cover 105 degrees. Schneider and Rodenstock recommend 1.5 stop CFs for theirs. The person whose question you answered has a 75 and a 90. There's no guarantee that the two have the same filter threads, so there's no guarantee that a CF that fits the person's 90 will fit its 75. A step up/down adapter might be possible but odds are it will vignette on the 75.

Alan, 105 degrees is the lens' angle of view.
Dan: How can a 75mm and 90mm cover the same degrees? I must be missing something.

[Alan Klein]

Dan: I see the 105 degrees here in your helpful chart that I store in my computer. Is the circled 105 degrees have to do with your point and what does it mean?

By the way, I can't find the link for it on line. Do you have it handy or is it here on the Home page?

[Dan Fromm]

Dan: I see the 105 degrees here in your helpful chart that I store in my computer. Is the circled 105 degrees have to do with your point and what does it mean?

By the way, I can't find the link for it on line. Do you have it handy or is it here on the Home page?

https://www.google.com/search?as_q=&as_epq=center+filter&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&as_filetype=&tbs=

fifth hit

[Dan Fromm]

Dan: How can a 75mm and 90mm cover the same degrees? I must be missing something.

Angular coverage is, given focal length, equivalent to circle covered. A 75 mm lens whose angle of view is 105 degrees covers a smaller circle than a 90 mm lens with the same angle of view.

[Mal Paso]

Each center filter is designed for a specific lens. The density and gradation needed is different from lens to lens. A filter made for one lens will probably be less than perfect on another lens.

I had a 65mm f8 Schneider and later a 65mm f4 Nikkor lens for 4x5 and never used a center filter for chromes or B&W. I never thought it necessary, no complaints from clients. A slight falloff in light toward the edges looks natural, uneven exposure from the wrong filter could look worse.

[xkaes]

Each center filter is designed for a specific lens. The density and gradation needed is different from lens to lens.

Many CND filters were designed for specific lens, but many were not. Hoya, Cosina, Marumi, for example, made CND filters for general use/application.

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/center5.htm

That doesn't mean they will work well -- or well-enough -- for any lens that has fall-off, but they work. You just need to run a simple test -- as I mentioned previously -- to determine if it works for a particular lens.

So any CND filter might work with any lens -- with or without a step-up/down adapter. It just needs to be checked out.

[xkaes]

How can a 75mm and 90mm cover the same degrees? I must be missing something.

Angle of coverage is completely different from angle of view. Here's a graphic explanation:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/indexfuji.htm

[Mark J]

The diagram 'Relationship between the image circle and the picture angle' has a very incorrect method to calculate the image circle.
Lens coverage is always worked out by using the Tan of the semi-angle of the FOV coverage , to get the radial image mm dimension.
For your example there for the Fuji SWD 65, try calculating the Tan of 105° and let me know how you get on ......

[Alan Klein]

Angular coverage is, given focal length, equivalent to circle covered. A 75 mm lens whose angle of view is 105 degrees covers a smaller circle than a 90 mm lens with the same angle of view.

Why would they make both lenses with angle of coverage the same at 105 degrees?

[Alan Klein]

Angle of coverage is completely different from angle of view. Here's a graphic explanation:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/indexfuji.htm

Thanks for the drawing. See my last post.

[Mark J]

Why would they make both lenses with angle of coverage the same at 105 degrees?

In large format there are several image formats available, from 6x9cm up to 8x10" and the many larger ULF formats. The convention has been for the lens manufacturers just to make a few classes of lenses, each class with a defined field angle, in various focal lengths, and let the user decide how to use them. For instance a 65 can be used on 6x9cm as a standard wide angle with lots of movement available, for focus and perspective control , or it can be used as a super-wide on 4x5". If you want a standard wide with loads of movement for 4x5", then you go up to the 90mm equivalent. The extra image coverage and wide angle rays just get absorbed by the bellows etc on the smaller camera format.