Critique in the image-sharing subforums

[Tin Can]

I see many judgements made, AKA Critiques

Of ART posted in good faith

I thought that was done only when requested?

Bryan follows that rule

Perhaps I fail as cheerleader

I offer Atta a Person

if i like

[Michael R]

I think the general rule is no critique unless OP solicits it. I don’t think atta-person counts as a critique so you should be fine. It would be pretty funny if a person posted an image and then objected to someone saying they liked it. “I DON’T TAKE PRAISE VERY WELL!”

[Jim Jones]

"When everything else fails, follow the rules!"

[Oren Grad]

Michael is right about our guideline. We don't always have time to catch every post - if you think someone is repeatedly imposing unwanted critical remarks in the image-sharing subforums, please let the moderators know.

[wclark5179]

Toastmasters focus on evaluating a speech to get the presenter excited to do another after the evaluation.

The evaluation goes like this:

Start out by finding and saying something positive.

Then recommend in a positive way how it could be better the next time.

And, finally, give some more positive feedback.

I believe if this were applied to evaluating a photographers work you’d get some one who would want to submit more photos to be evaluated. And the photographer would improve making photographs.Shouldn’t that be the goal?

[darr]

Not everyone that posts an image is seeking a critique.
Sometimes, they post to share where they went, a technique, lens, etc.
Please do not critique my work or you will take the fun out of it for me! :)

[darr]

What I wish the forum had was like, thank you, etc. buttons.
Members may receive more positive feedback this way.
I enjoy looking at images, but I do not always have the time to write a post to congratulate the photographer.

[Vaughn]

There have been many comments about "like" buttons, and generally not positive.
Being semi-active on Facebook and having used the thumbs up system, I prefer not having it here. A thumbs up becomes a rather empty gesture...especially if one can not give a thumbs down. If we were to go down that wormhole, I'd rather have a 1 to 5 rating system (or 1 to 10).

[paulbarden]

"Like"buttons? No thank you. I don't think we need to reduce our interactions to the level of vacuous Facebook narcissism.

[darr]

Apologies, everyone. I'm not currently using Facebook, so I can't speak to the negativity associated with the like button there.
However, on the getDPI forum where I'm active, the like button is seen as a positive feature.

[Vaughn]

No need to apologize...it is a worthwhile consideration.

We are perhaps too diverse to have an open critique policy. Then there are the fragile male egos to deal with (raising my hand). :cool:

[Tin Can]

I LIKE women!

I wish we had more here

I know I am a weirdo, I dislike many men

I am so weird I wish I was woman

butt too late to change

the end is near

LOL




Apologies, everyone. I'm not currently using Facebook, so I can't speak to the negativity associated with the like button there.
However, on the getDPI forum where I'm active, the like button is seen as a positive feature.

[Alan Klein]

I think the general rule is no critique unless OP solicits it. I don’t think atta-person counts as a critique so you should be fine. It would be pretty funny if a person posted an image and then objected to someone saying they liked it. “I DON’T TAKE PRAISE VERY WELL!”

That's it? "Atta boy!"

[Alan Klein]

There have been many comments about "like" buttons, and generally not positive.
Being semi-active on Facebook and having used the thumbs up system, I prefer not having it here. A thumbs up becomes a rather empty gesture...especially if one can not give a thumbs down. If we were to go down that wormhole, I'd rather have a 1 to 5 rating system (or 1 to 10).

Here in NJ when we have photo contests, they use a 6 to 9 rating system where 9 is the highest. Have no clue who invented that system?

[Alan Klein]

Am I missing something? The topics are called Image Sharing and Discussion. How do you Discuss a photo without critiquing it?

[darr]

Am I missing something? The topics are called Image Sharing and Discussion. How do you Discuss a photo without critiquing it?

Discussing encompasses a broader range of conversations, including sharing thoughts, ideas, and opinions without necessarily focusing on assessment or improvement.
Critiquing involves a more analytical and evaluative approach to providing constructive feedback.

Here is a simple example between the two:

(1) Critiquing: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
Members provide critiques that highlight the composition, lighting, and color balance while suggesting improvements to enhance the overall quality.

(2) Discussion: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
The discussions may go like this:
"I love the natural setting you chose! It really adds to the overall feel of the portrait."
"The lighting is so soft and flattering. It gives the image a warm and inviting vibe."
"The model's expression is captivating, and you've captured a great connection with the viewer. It's a beautifully composed shot."

This discussion focuses on sharing positive thoughts, impressions, and appreciation for the portrait without delving into specific critiques or suggestions for improvement.
It highlights the aspects that the participants find appealing about the image and encourages a positive and supportive exchange among community members.

[darr]

I LIKE women!

I wish we had more here

I know I am a weirdo, I dislike many men

I am so weird I wish I was woman

butt too late to change

the end is near

LOL

I am happy to be a woman, Randy.
My best friend is a guy, as I really like hanging out with guys. :)

[Alan Klein]

Discussing encompasses a broader range of conversations, including sharing thoughts, ideas, and opinions without necessarily focusing on assessment or improvement.
Critiquing involves a more analytical and evaluative approach to providing constructive feedback.

Here is a simple example between the two:

(1) Critiquing: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
Members provide critiques that highlight the composition, lighting, and color balance while suggesting improvements to enhance the overall quality.

(2) Discussion: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
The discussions may go like this:
"I love the natural setting you chose! It really adds to the overall feel of the portrait."
"The lighting is so soft and flattering. It gives the image a warm and inviting vibe."
"The model's expression is captivating, and you've captured a great connection with the viewer. It's a beautifully composed shot."

This discussion focuses on sharing positive thoughts, impressions, and appreciation for the portrait without delving into specific critiques or suggestions for improvement.
It highlights the aspects that the participants find appealing about the image and encourages a positive and supportive exchange among community members.

A distinction without a difference. What you're suggesting is that positive critiques are fine but not negative critiques. A critique is a critique. Here's some edits of your critiques. Why are mine in bold not acceptable?

"I love the natural setting you chose! It really adds to the overall feel of the portrait." but the lighting is too dark in that area if it's the subject.
"The lighting is so soft and flattering. It gives the image a warm and inviting vibe." but adding contrast would draw the eye to it quicker.
"The model's expression is captivating, and you've captured a great connection with the viewer. It's a beautifully composed shot." but her eyes are out of focus.

[Alan Klein]

What you've done, Darr, is call a positive comment a Discussion. It's only a discussion if someone can return their views and disagree with you.

[Tin Can]

quibble


What you've done, Darr, is call a positive comment a Discussion. It's only a discussion if someone can return their views and disagree with you.

[darr]

What you've done, Darr, is call a positive comment a Discussion. It's only a discussion if someone can return their views and disagree with you.

I respectfully disagree with your perspective.
While it's true that discussions can involve differing viewpoints and constructive criticism, a discussion about an image doesn't necessarily have to include negative opinions or comments.

For me, engaging with images can be a profoundly positive experience.
There are countless artworks that bring joy, inspiration, and a sense of wonder.
When I look at these images, my goal is to appreciate and understand what makes them captivating.
It's not always about finding flaws or things to criticize.

Art, in its various forms, is a means of self-expression and communication.
It can evoke emotions, tell stories, or be aesthetically pleasing.
As someone who enjoys art, I focus on the connection I establish with the artwork, whether through the artist's technique, the emotions it evokes, or the beauty it conveys.

Of course, constructive criticism and differing opinions have their place in the art world, fostering growth and learning for both artists and viewers.
However, they shouldn't be the sole criteria for labeling a conversation as a 'discussion.'
Sometimes, celebrating the positive aspects of an image and sharing what we love about it can be just as enriching and meaningful.

[Jim Jones]

There have been many comments about "like" buttons, and generally not positive.
Being semi-active on Facebook and having used the thumbs up system, I prefer not having it here. A thumbs up becomes a rather empty gesture...especially if one can not give a thumbs down. If we were to go down that wormhole, I'd rather have a 1 to 5 rating system (or 1 to 10).

A rating system sounds reasonable. Honest and well-informed critiques are far better if the photographer welcomes them. An important function of a site like LFPP is education, and critiques do that well. Perhaps the number of critiques on each photograph should be limited to prevent a prolonged discussion that strays off topic.

[Oren Grad]

I think some may be trying to read too much into our guideline. Just don't go around telling posters what you think is wrong with their pictures unless they ask for a critique. That's all.

Also: we will not implement any system that involves rating and/or ranking Forum members' pictures, directly or indirectly.

[Vaughn]

...Why are mine in bold not acceptable?

"I love the natural setting you chose! It really adds to the overall feel of the portrait." but the lighting is too dark in that area if it's the subject.
...

Not a positive statement because you are expressing a negative opinion...not facts.

Perhaps something like this would be a great improvement, "I like the way that dark area allows one's eyes to stay on the figure. Was it intentional?"

Edit to add: I had an interesting introduction to this forum. I offered up my first image and it immediately was cropped by other members 20 ways to paradise. No improvements (my biased opinion), but a challenging way to be introduced to the forum. But I learned photography in a university setting where critiques are the norm, participated and assisted at workshops where my work was critiqued by knowledgeable and talented people, and have approached galleries for shows. Many of these were not 'fun', none were harmful, most were helpful...some surprisingly so years later. So I do not mind being critiqued -- but be ready to have your critique critiqued. It is a two-way exchange...be ready to defend your opinions with quite a bit more than "It does not look good to me." :cool:

[Pieter]

Discussing encompasses a broader range of conversations, including sharing thoughts, ideas, and opinions without necessarily focusing on assessment or improvement.
Critiquing involves a more analytical and evaluative approach to providing constructive feedback.

Here is a simple example between the two:

(1) Critiquing: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
Members provide critiques that highlight the composition, lighting, and color balance while suggesting improvements to enhance the overall quality.

(2) Discussion: A photographer shares a portrait photograph in an online photography community.
The discussions may go like this:
"I love the natural setting you chose! It really adds to the overall feel of the portrait."
"The lighting is so soft and flattering. It gives the image a warm and inviting vibe."
"The model's expression is captivating, and you've captured a great connection with the viewer. It's a beautifully composed shot."

This discussion focuses on sharing positive thoughts, impressions, and appreciation for the portrait without delving into specific critiques or suggestions for improvement.
It highlights the aspects that the participants find appealing about the image and encourages a positive and supportive exchange among community members.
Not all critiques are negative. Positive comments are also part of a critique. Portfolio reviews are essentially critiques that might point out weaknesses as well as encouragement.

[darr]

Not all critiques are negative. Positive comments are also part of a critique. Portfolio reviews are essentially critiques that might point out weaknesses as well as encouragement.

I completely agree with your point.

Critiques aren't solely about pointing out flaws; they encompass both constructive feedback and positive reinforcement.
I always aimed to strike a balance when giving portfolio reviews for student commercial photographers' portfolios.
While I provided insights into areas where improvements can be made, I also highlighted their strengths and offered encouragement.
This balanced approach helps students identify areas for growth and boosts their confidence and motivation to continue developing their skills.
So, you're absolutely right; critiques encompass a holistic evaluation that includes both positive and constructive elements.

[Vaughn]

I have seen people add "Critiques welcome" to their posts with images. I'd just leave it at that...simple, and only people who want them might get them.
And if one sees something about an image that one really likes, they might say so.

[Merg Ross]

Also: we will not implement any system that involves rating and/or ranking Forum members' pictures, directly or indirectly.

Thank you for that!

Best,
Merg

[Tin Can]

As old man I completed and earned MFA at ARTIC 2001

I took the Live Art track, as I engaged Performance since child

As Shaman, impromptu on street, stage and my specialty dive bars decades before...

My highly paid Professor got a free ride as many did in Europe

My final street performance, MFA ARTIC engaged 100's still unanswered?????

How Will You Pay Your Student Loans?

Everybody wanted to get inside my TIN CAN

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792314582_19b673c7c6_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/1y63g9v769)1-TIN CAN COLLEGE BiZ card (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/1y63g9v769) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50791469453_e44d96d321_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/1C6887k6t9)1-1-TIN CAN COLLEGEweb (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/1C6887k6t9) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Alan Klein]

I respectfully disagree with your perspective.
While it's true that discussions can involve differing viewpoints and constructive criticism, a discussion about an image doesn't necessarily have to include negative opinions or comments.

For me, engaging with images can be a profoundly positive experience.
There are countless artworks that bring joy, inspiration, and a sense of wonder.
When I look at these images, my goal is to appreciate and understand what makes them captivating.
It's not always about finding flaws or things to criticize.

Art, in its various forms, is a means of self-expression and communication.
It can evoke emotions, tell stories, or be aesthetically pleasing.
As someone who enjoys art, I focus on the connection I establish with the artwork, whether through the artist's technique, the emotions it evokes, or the beauty it conveys.

Of course, constructive criticism and differing opinions have their place in the art world, fostering growth and learning for both artists and viewers.
However, they shouldn't be the sole criteria for labeling a conversation as a 'discussion.'
Sometimes, celebrating the positive aspects of an image and sharing what we love about it can be just as enriching and meaningful.

So you would limit all comments to positive comments? What kind of discussion is that? What if one of the viewers disagrees with another's positive comment and sees it opposite? Are they to remain silent? Should they just slink away in shame for having such negative thoughts? Should the photographer believe that everyone in the world thinks his picture is superb, that there are no mistakes, no room for improvement? Should we all just fool ourselves? What value would the discussion be? Do we want an image site where everyone gets a medal?

[Alan Klein]

I think some may be trying to read too much into our guideline. Just don't go around telling posters what you think is wrong with their pictures unless they ask for a critique. That's all.

Also: we will not implement any system that involves rating and/or ranking Forum members' pictures, directly or indirectly.

If you don't want any negative comments posted than you shouldn't allow any positive comments. See my last post.

[Vaughn]

Alan, do you critique your wife's housework...offer unasked-for helpful advice on how to improve her work?

If you do, she deserves a medal. :cool:

[Alan Klein]

Not a positive statement because you are expressing a negative opinion...not facts.

Perhaps something like this would be a great improvement, "I like the way that dark area allows one's eyes to stay on the figure. Was it intentional?"

Edit to add: I had an interesting introduction to this forum. I offered up my first image and it immediately was cropped by other members 20 ways to paradise. No improvements (my biased opinion), but a challenging way to be introduced to the forum. But I learned photography in a university setting where critiques are the norm, participated and assisted at workshops where my work was critiqued by knowledgeable and talented people, and have approached galleries for shows. Many of these were not 'fun', none were harmful, most were helpful...some surprisingly so years later. So I do not mind being critiqued -- but be ready to have your critique critiqued. It is a two-way exchange...be ready to defend your opinions with quite a bit more than "It does not look good to me." :cool:

Vaughn, I understand you're trying to be kind to the photographer. I don't disagree with you that we shouldn't be harsh, as we're all friends or at least fellow photographers. But not everyone has the tack to be so eloquent as you. Honest and forthright comments, yes even negative ones, have to be allowed if you allow positive comments. Otherwise, we become a mutual admiration society where we all just tap each other on the back telling each other how great we all are. That's dishonesty and a waste of time. Either ban all comments or open it up for everyone's comments good and bad. Reminder that the title of the threads are Images and Comments. Then change the title to Images (no comments).

[Alan Klein]

Alan, do you critique your wife's housework...offer unasked-for helpful advice on how to improve her work?

If you do, she deserves a medal. :cool:

She deserves three medals. :)

[Alan Klein]

Why not set up two threads, one called Images (no comments) and the other Images, Comments and Discussion welcomed. Then the contributor can decide how they want it handled.

[Tin Can]

NO

This forum is complicated enough

[PatrickMarq]

Not everyone that posts an image is seeking a critique.
Sometimes, they post to share where they went, a technique, lens, etc.
Please do not critique my work or you will take the fun out of it for me! :)

Indeed, the last weeks I go out with a friend that does not takes photo’s but I do. We have fun, and i’m not alone.
And if there is an image that I like, I post it here. Most of the time there is only a memory of having a good time behind the image. And sometimes it’s also a great composition ( I hope)
Also don’t ask me why my image is to light/dark/blurry or that composition, it may be my state of mind at that time.

[Oren Grad]

If you don't want any negative comments posted than you shouldn't allow any positive comments.

*Unsolicited* negative comments.


Honest and forthright comments, yes even negative ones, have to be allowed if you allow positive comments. Otherwise, we become a mutual admiration society where we all just tap each other on the back telling each other how great we all are. That's dishonesty and a waste of time. Either ban all comments or open it up for everyone's comments good and bad. Reminder that the title of the threads are Images and Comments. Then change the title to Images (no comments).

We don't "have to" allow anything. We set our rules according to our best judgment of what will most effectively further our purpose. If we wanted to run a venue for no-holds-barred critical discussion of participants' work, we would announce that and specify guidelines accordingly. We have chosen not to do so.

So once again: if a member hasn't requested critique, then it doesn't matter how strongly you feel that they got something wrong. Please be considerate, bite your tongue and move on.

[Oren Grad]

Not everyone that posts an image is seeking a critique.
Sometimes, they post to share where they went, a technique, lens, etc.
Please do not critique my work or you will take the fun out of it for me! :)


Indeed, the last weeks I go out with a friend that does not takes photo’s but I do. We have fun, and i’m not alone.
And if there is an image that I like, I post it here. Most of the time there is only a memory of having a good time behind the image. And sometimes it’s also a great composition ( I hope)
Also don’t ask me why my image is to light/dark/blurry or that composition, it may be my state of mind at that time.

What darr and PatrickMarq said. There are valid purposes for sharing work other than seeking dissection and criticism. Please respect that.

[Vaughn]

She deserves three medals. :)

Without a doubt!

Yes, being kind is important. Time and time again I have held back my opinion on images presented here that (in my opinion) have serious compositional flaws and/or technical issues...because the person did not ask for my input. And in many cases, their image/print met their or exceeded their goals and should be celebrated. Improvements will come with time and experience. My personal standards are quite high...for both the image and the print. Beside personal drive, having work in galleries requires that of me. But why should I place my standards on someone new to the art who is in the exploration mode, or someone with their own vision of what a good photograph is?

Having been involved with photographic education on the university level for 40 years, and teaching photography to grade-school kids up to seniors even older than me, negative comments about their work do not help them succeed and maintain their passion for photography. Instead, one congratulates them for getting where they are, find out where they want to go, and then help them to get there. When they get there, then they see they are just on a level spot and there is still a lot of climbing to do.

And that can not happen in a format such as this forum -- egos get involved, and the written word can't carry the required load that a face-to-face discussion can. There is often little effort to understand what the photographer is trying to achieve (and the photographer may have trouble articulating it) that comments given are often just advice on how to make the photo look more like the ones the commenters make...instead of moving the photographer's vision forward.

[Pieter]

Anyone who decides to share an image is exposing themselves to whatever public commentary or discussion that might arise. If they are posting to share the moment, an experiment or an accomplishment, then it would behoove them to add a caption clarifying the reason for sharing. And not everyone will like everything. It's not like those "everyone gets a trophy" things.

[Alan Klein]

Without a doubt!

Yes, being kind is important. Time and time again I have held back my opinion on images presented here that (in my opinion) have serious compositional flaws and/or technical issues...because the person did not ask for my input. And in many cases, their image/print met their or exceeded their goals and should be celebrated. Improvements will come with time and experience. My personal standards are quite high...for both the image and the print. Beside personal drive, having work in galleries requires that of me. But why should I place my standards on someone new to the art who is in the exploration mode, or someone with their own vision of what a good photograph is?

Having been involved with photographic education on the university level for 40 years, and teaching photography to grade-school kids up to seniors even older than me, negative comments about their work do not help them succeed and maintain their passion for photography. Instead, one congratulates them for getting where they are, find out where they want to go, and then help them to get there. When they get there, then they see they are just on a level spot and there is still a lot of climbing to do.

And that can not happen in a format such as this forum -- egos get involved, and the written word can't carry the required load that a face-to-face discussion can. There is often little effort to understand what the photographer is trying to achieve (and the photographer may have trouble articulating it) that comments given are often just advice I think it's great that you continually for students especially young ones. However everyone makes mistakes. What if a student continually under exposes his photos? Don't you tell him? how to make the photo look more like the ones the commenters make...instead of moving the photographer's vision forward.

I think it's wonderful that you positively reinforce students especially young ones. But we all make mistakes and errors. Certainly Improvement is required. What if a student continuously underexposes his photos? Don't you tell him?

[Alan Klein]

*Unsolicited* negative comments.



We don't "have to" allow anything. We set our rules according to our best judgment of what will most effectively further our purpose. If we wanted to run a venue for no-holds-barred critical discussion of participants' work, we would announce that and specify guidelines accordingly. We have chosen not to do so.

So once again: if a member hasn't requested critique, then it doesn't matter how strongly you feel that they got something wrong. Please be considerate, bite your tongue and move on.

Oren, I have no problem with your rules. The problem is the topic is titled: Images and Comments. Take the word Comments out of the title. Otherwise we don't know what's allowed.

[darr]

So you would limit all comments to positive comments?

When I comment on a photo, whether it's in this forum or elsewhere, I've always chosen to provide positive feedback.
It's a personal choice, and I respect that it may not align with everyone's preferences.
BTW, who appointed you as the authority on photography critique? :confused:


What kind of discussion is that? What if one of the viewers disagrees with another's positive comment and sees it opposite? Are they to remain silent? Should they just slink away in shame for having such negative thoughts? Should the photographer believe that everyone in the world thinks his picture is superb, that there are no mistakes, no room for improvement? Should we all just fool ourselves? What value would the discussion be? Do we want an image site where everyone gets a medal?

I've had a long and fulfilling career in art and photography, having achieved my personal goals and reaped the rewards.
When it comes to critiquing others' work, a more detailed understanding of the context beyond the image and technical details is necessary, and honestly, I don't want to engage in that process.
Instead, I prefer to express my appreciation by simply liking an image without providing an explanation.
It's a way for me to acknowledge and respect another photographer's perspective with a simple "Hey, I like it!"

Please respect my choice in this matter and refrain from pursuing it any further.
Thank you.

[paulbarden]

When it comes to critiquing others' work, a more detailed understanding of the context beyond the image and technical details is necessary, and honestly, I don't want to engage in that process.
Instead, I prefer to express my appreciation by simply liking an image without providing an explanation.

I agree.
One thing I have learned from this (and other photography forums) is that the majority of participants have never engaged in a genuine critique and don't know how to constructively engage on that level. A meaningful critique is best left to someone who has experience doing it and understands the context for performing a critique. A forum such as this isn't well suited to that process, IMO. Too many participants would walk away sore the moment the first slightly negative thing was said. Who needs that?!

[Pieter]

When I comment on a photo, whether it's in this forum or elsewhere, I've always chosen to provide positive feedback.
It's a personal choice, and I respect that it may not align with everyone's preferences.
BTW, who appointed you as the authority on photography critique? :confused:



I've had a long and fulfilling career in art and photography, having achieved my personal goals and reaped the rewards.
When it comes to critiquing others' work, a more detailed understanding of the context beyond the image and technical details is necessary, and honestly, I don't want to engage in that process.
Instead, I prefer to express my appreciation by simply liking an image without providing an explanation.
It's a way for me to acknowledge and respect another photographer's perspective with a simple "Hey, I like it!"

Please respect my choice in this matter and refrain from pursuing it any further.
Thank you.
No one says "your baby is ugly" but there are ugly babies.

Surprisingly, there are no "so what?" or "meh" buttons on social media.

While liking a photo is nice, if one does not like it maybe a bit of explanation would help clarify why. It could come down to subject matter, composition or taste or something else.

[Vaughn]

I think it's wonderful that you positively reinforce students especially young ones. But we all make mistakes and errors. Certainly Improvement is required. What if a student continuously underexposes his photos? Don't you tell him?

Apples and oranges, Alan. Teaching technique is a straight forward 1+1=2. Success is usually a yes/no sort of thing. Problems with negatives and/or prints are examined in terms of light hitting the film/paper in a controlled manner and the processing controls, either during or soon after printing so that the students can make changes in the variables and see the differences in the appearance of the print. The question always asked of the student is, "What do you want the print to look like?" Beginners often do not know, so one lays out some of the options and have them go at it.

Critique is about what they do with the above information and experience to produce their images, and how the photographer communicates with the viewer through their print(s). If there is a technical issue that is keeping the photographer from achieving their goals, then that issue is looked at and solutions found.

Students, generally, are students because they want to be told when they are messing up...they are there for the critiques. Not exactly the same for people on this forum.

And students are graded...that's one heck of a critique!

I find that the biggest problem with online critiques of any kind is that we are not looking at the prints (if a print is the final form the artist chooses). Only a fairly gross representation of the print is possible and we must rely strictly on the image and not the physical object which is the photograph. Paper surface, fine gradations of tonality, print size, and other qualities are stripped from the work.

[Michael R]

That's it? "Atta boy!"

In my experience here when someone is looking for help or a “critique” the posted image is usually accompanied with some wording to that effect. Not everyone posting images here is looking for suggestions. They might just be showing their work. What is the problem?

[darr]

No one says "your baby is ugly" but there are ugly babies.

Surprisingly, there are no "so what?" or "meh" buttons on social media.

While liking a photo is nice, if one does not like it maybe a bit of explanation would help clarify why. It could come down to subject matter, composition or taste or something else.

Not everyone who joins a photo community is necessarily looking to provide or receive critiques.
It's important to respect each individual's preferences and approach to sharing and appreciating photography.
Please respect my preferences.

[darr]

I agree.
One thing I have learned from this (and other photography forums) is that the majority of participants have never engaged in a genuine critique and don't know how to constructively engage on that level. A meaningful critique is best left to someone who has experience doing it and understands the context for performing a critique. A forum such as this isn't well suited to that process, IMO. Too many participants would walk away sore the moment the first slightly negative thing was said. Who needs that?!

Thank you, Paul.

[Pieter]

In my experience here when someone is looking for help or a “critique” the posted image is usually accompanied with some wording to that effect. Not everyone posting images here is looking for suggestions. They might just be showing their work. What is the problem?
Some images I see posted here and elsewhere knock me flat on my ass. I am truly impressed. On the other hand, some images leave me hoping the photographer is enjoying themselves because the end product sucks. It can be especially true for some reason with folks who shoot with high-end, big bucks gear and end up with something that looks like my myopic aunt shot with her Instamatic (yes, I know there are myopic aunts who shoot masterpieces with box cameras, just not mine).

I'm sure I am repeating myself, but if you want to witness a ruthless, cutthroat critique, go to an art school. It is common that at least someone leaves one of those in tears. An anecdote (second-hand, so take it for what that's worth): a photography teacher at a local school would take a sharpie to students' final assignment prints and mark them up with comments (not on an overlay, but right on the fiber prints). Another was rumored to take a lighter to work that did not meet the class criteria (before smoke detectors and sprinklers of course!).

[Alan Klein]

I agree.
One thing I have learned from this (and other photography forums) is that the majority of participants have never engaged in a genuine critique and don't know how to constructively engage on that level. A meaningful critique is best left to someone who has experience doing it and understands the context for performing a critique. A forum such as this isn't well suited to that process, IMO. Too many participants would walk away sore the moment the first slightly negative thing was said. Who needs that?!

What's a genuine critique? Do you have to be an epicure to give your opinion after eating at a restaurant? Have you recommended doctors, lawyers, accountants and other professionals to friends and family? Are you an expert in these fields? what's so hard about having an opinion about a photo? Most people here are photographers for long periods of time. If anyone should have a knowledgeable opinion, shouldn't it be us?

[Alan Klein]

No one says "your baby is ugly" but there are ugly babies.

Surprisingly, there are no "so what?" or "meh" buttons on social media.

While liking a photo is nice, if one does not like it maybe a bit of explanation would help clarify why. It could come down to subject matter, composition or taste or something else.

Let's keep it simple with three buttons: "Nice shot" "Ugly shot" "Sell your camera" :)

[Pieter]

What's a genuine critique? Do you have to be an epicure to give your opinion after eating at a restaurant? Have you recommended doctors, lawyers, accountants and other professionals to friends and family? Are you an expert in these fields? what's so hard about having an opinion about a photo? Most people here are photographers for long periods of time. If anyone should have a knowledgeable opinion, shouldn't it be us?

Not necessarily. Experience does not equate to expertise.

[Alan Klein]

Not necessarily. Experience does not equate to expertise.

Exactly the point of my post. But people give opinions anyway. In the case of photos, critiques should be taken with a grain of salt.

But the issue I have is has to do with the forum title which is "Image Sharing and Discussion" Drop the word Discussion or create another thread called Image Sharing (no critiques allowed). That's all I'm saying. Then the contributor can post their image in the appropriate thread and the rest of us will know how to handle them from a discussion and critiquing point.

[Michael R]

In my own experience I haven’t found (or noticed) a correlation between suckiness and big money gear. However I have noticed - generally speaking - the quality goes down as the format increases in size. Definitely not a popular opinion on a large format photo forum…:)

As for art critiques, my own approach to this was to seek out feedback from photographers/printers I considered to be at the top of the field. Of course, you’re not typically going to get a light your prints on fire kind of evisceration that way, but honestly I think a lot of that is garbage anyway.

In any case I really don’t understand what the problem is here. Is the name of the image sharing subforum really that confusing?


Some images I see posted here and elsewhere knock me flat on my ass. I am truly impressed. On the other hand, some images leave me hoping the photographer is enjoying themselves because the end product sucks. It can be especially true for some reason with folks who shoot with high-end, big bucks gear and end up with something that looks like my myopic aunt shot with her Instamatic (yes, I know there are myopic aunts who shoot masterpieces with box cameras, just not mine).

I'm sure I am repeating myself, but if you want to witness a ruthless, cutthroat critique, go to an art school. It is common that at least someone leaves one of those in tears. An anecdote (second-hand, so take it for what that's worth): a photography teacher at a local school would take a sharpie to students' final assignment prints and mark them up with comments (not on an overlay, but right on the fiber prints). Another was rumored to take a lighter to work that did not meet the class criteria (before smoke detectors and sprinklers of course!).

[paulbarden]

What's a genuine critique? Do you have to be an epicure to give your opinion after eating at a restaurant? Have you recommended doctors, lawyers, accountants and other professionals to friends and family? Are you an expert in these fields? what's so hard about having an opinion about a photo? Most people here are photographers for long periods of time. If anyone should have a knowledgeable opinion, shouldn't it be us?

A meaningful critique requires a heck of a lot more than simply having an opinion. So, you're proving my point, Alan.

[Alan Klein]

A meaningful critique requires a heck of a lot more than simply having an opinion. So, you're proving my point, Alan.

Don't you think the people here have that? Do you have such a low opinion of us? :confused:

[Pieter]

Don't you think the people here have that? Do you have such a low opinion of us? :confused:

Don’t ask.

[darr]

To become a great photographer - study art.
Cameras are easy once you learn good technique, but producing good art consistently is not.

Becoming a good artist doesn't typically happen by asking questions about your photos on a forum.
Instead, actual growth often comes from a more immersive approach.

To truly learn, consider studying art extensively, examining what captures your attention, and delving into it deeply.
Break down those captivating images into their constituent parts.
Dissect the composition, deconstruct the lighting, and scrutinize the way it interacts with the subjects.
Explore the nuances of the quality of light.

By studying art in this manner, you can learn how to reconstruct it, gaining a deeper understanding of the creative process.
It's akin to understanding the construction of a building; once you grasp how it's built, you can create something similar on your own.

You will never excel at developing an eye if you do not enjoy looking at art (paintings, graphics, and photographs).
You will get lucky now and then, but you will not be consistently good.
It takes a lot of work to learn how to create good art, and you must make a lot of bad art before you get there.

If you need guidance, seek out a teacher who can provide direction.
If you have the passion, spend countless hours poring over art books.
Commit to a class and stick with it, even when it feels challenging, or the instructor's methods don't align with your expectations.
This dedicated approach is more likely to yield substantial growth as an artist.
If you lack discipline, you will not grow as an artist, and that is okay, but do not expect a forum to change that.

I think this forum is more about sharing images for fun and learning techniques for darkroom and camera.
To improve as a photographer, shoot more and talk about it less!

[Corran]

to improve as a photographer, shoot more and talk about it less!

Amen!

[Vaughn]

Don’t ask.

:D

[paulbarden]

I think this forum is more about sharing images for fun and learning techniques for darkroom and camera.
To improve as a photographer, shoot more and talk about it less!

Or don't talk about it at all. Just DO THE WORK.

[Vaughn]

Or talk a lot and do the work. No need for it to be one or the other.

[PatrickMarq]

And that can not happen in a format such as this forum -- egos get involved, and the written word can't carry the required load that a face-to-face discussion can. There is often little effort to understand what the photographer is trying to achieve (and the photographer may have trouble articulating it) that comments given are often just advice on how to make the photo look more like the ones the commenters make...instead of moving the photographer's vision forward.

I think this is the most important piece of this conversation !
Not all people are native English and putting something on email or this forums is much difficult then face tot face and pointing out on the print what could be better

[Tin Can]

Few women feel welcome here

I made forum female friends

Years ago on forum PM

ALL TOLD me when they quit!

I hate boys clubs

[paulbarden]

Few women feel welcome here

I made forum female friends

Years ago on forum PM

ALL TOLD me when they quit!

I hate boys clubs

And this is certainly a boys club, to its detriment.

[Jim Jones]

The first photo forum I followed had plenty of women. For the male chauvinists here, maybe that's why it folded. They may have been more interested in photography than in all the other work that maintaining a forum demands. I still follow a few of them on other "boy's club" forums.

[Michael R]

The lack of self awareness here. Yeesh.

[Chuck Pere]

I thought there was already a procedure for people wanting a critique. Like this one: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?172166-Photo-Critique-Truman-Cove-New-Zealand-1987

You need a separate thread for every critique. You just can't stick a bunch of critique comments in a general picture subject thread. So, nothing stopping anyone wanting a clique from doing it.

[Pieter]

The first photo forum I followed had plenty of women. For the male chauvinists here, maybe that's why it folded. They may have been more interested in photography than in all the other work that maintaining a forum demands. I still follow a few of them on other "boy's club" forums.
Maybe so with forums, but classes and workshops I have attended usually had a female majority.

[rdenney]

The point of image sharing is so that people can see what other people are up to and also because expression is the point of photography.

The point of discussion is to ask questions and get answers in good faith (meaning, asking a question because you want to know not because you want someone else to know.)

The point of teaching is to attain specific learning outcomes by students. I don’t see that in “sharing and discussion” even though more general learning will surely result. Discussion may involve learning but it does not involve teachers seeing it as their duty to de-ignorize others. Unsolicited teaching ends up being a lot like the retired wannabe tradesmen at Home Depot who feel it their calling to give people (often bad) advice about how to fix or build something. Yet I appreciate their answers when I ask. The addition of the often smugly implied “little lady” or “young’un”or “grasshopper” exposes it for what it is, and that is often heard even when it is not stated or intended.

The image sharing forums are for sharing, not teaching. If I see a photo that impresses me for whatever reason, I may ask the person how they did it, or how they saw it or thought of it. If so, it will be because I want to know. And they may tell me. Others might then say how they approach the same thing. That is discussion in the context of sharing.

“Why didn’t you…” or “You could have…” or “I would have…” or “that picture needs…” are not discussion. They are declamations. A person may want them, and if so they can ask for them.

I think we all know the distinction here.

Rick “with a long history of unsolicited declamation” Denney

[Pieter]

There was a gentleman who would post tack-sharp, foreground-to-background in focus, pleasantly composed photos. Straight-on, no dynamic angles--not even really interesting subjects. The lighting was always even, no deep shadows, no bright highlights. Maybe that's the way he liked his photos. Maybe he didn't know any better. Maybe that was how he was taught. Should someone have commented? I sure didn't. If he's happy and was posting to share because he was proud of the images, so be it.

[Tin Can]

"Maybe he didn't know any better."