Vignetting 4x5 300mm

[SergioSanta]

Hello everyone,

Long time reader, 1st time "writer".
I don't know if this is the correct "forum" or even if the question was already posted (I've made a quick search and didn't find anything).

I'm taking the 1st steps with a "new" lens on my 4x5 SINAR norma.
It's a beautiful Rodenstock 300mm f5.6 Sironar-N MC.
(I'm used to wider lenses, as I work manly with architecture)

I'v' already taken a few shots, but the last ones have an horrible vignetting.
242462

I'm guessing this has to do with the image circle and bellows distance but I'm not quite sure how to solve it/ avoid it.
I would like your expertise on the matter before doing a couple of tests, exploring the distance to subject en consequently bellows expansion.

Thank you very much for your advice.

[paulbarden]

This makes no sense, as this lens has a 407mm image circle - sufficient for at least 5x7 and probably 8x10.
So, I have to assume you've put a lens shade on the front that is occluding the view - IE: it's too small a shade for this lens. I can't imagine how else you'd get such heavy vignetting.

[Kevin Crisp]

Paul is right, you should have plenty of coverage. You have both front and back elements?

[Graham Patterson]

My bet is on a lens hood. The effect is least on the close-up. If the image is previewed at the taking aperture this should show up, though?

[Greg]

Paul is right, you should have plenty of coverage. You have both front and back elements?

The correct front and real elements... I once bid on and won a lens on eBay that had the correct front set of front elements but the rear set of elements were from another focal length lens. Same effect of severely limiting the coverage.

[Doremus Scudder]

... or you're stacking filters maybe?

[ic-racer]

Need pictures of the lens and how it is mounted on the camera.

[paulbarden]

The correct front and real elements... I once bid on and won a lens on eBay that had the correct front set of front elements but the rear set of elements were from another focal length lens. Same effect of severely limiting the coverage.

Worth looking into - I've seen this happen before. And earlier today I spotted a Kodak Retina IIIc with a front element from a 1a that had a f3.5 Xenar lens! People do strange things just to get an item sold. But some sellers have no idea what they have, or what has been done to it before they got it. These things aren't always intentionally malicious.

[Alan Klein]

Aren't there different types of telephoto lenses for large format?

[Vaughan]

Aren't there different types of telephoto lenses for large format?

A Rodenstock 300mm f5.6 Sironar-N MC is not a telephoto design, it's a plasmat.

[SimonMaddock]

Hello everyone,

Long time reader, 1st time "writer".
I don't know if this is the correct "forum" or even if the question was already posted (I've made a quick search and didn't find anything).

I'm taking the 1st steps with a "new" lens on my 4x5 SINAR norma.
It's a beautiful Rodenstock 300mm f5.6 Sironar-N MC.
(I'm used to wider lenses, as I work manly with architecture)

I'v' already taken a few shots, but the last ones have an horrible vignetting.
242462

I'm guessing this has to do with the image circle and bellows distance but I'm not quite sure how to solve it/ avoid it.
I would like your expertise on the matter before doing a couple of tests, exploring the distance to subject en consequently bellows expansion.

Thank you very much for your advice.

I think it would be helpful if you could share a photo of your lens. The results are not normal

[Huub]

Aren't there different types of telephoto lenses for large format?

In largeformat photography 'telephoto lens' has a slightly different meaning: it has nothing to do with the focal length in relation to the film format, but is used for lenses with a special constrution, making their focal flange distance much shorter then their focal length. This means they can be used on camera's that dont have enough bellows draw for the focal length. Well known examples are the Schneider tele-xenar and the Nikon tele-ed's.

[SergioSanta]

Hello and thanks for the replies,

I bought the lens at a physical store where I go often.
They work with all kind large format cameras and photographic procedures, collodion, film, super 8...
The lens seems to be in order (see pics attached) but it's a simple lens without shutter.
242503242504242505

Keeping your remarks in mind I maybe found the problem. And its a bit of a stupid thing...
This lens rear element is too wide for the SINAR copal DB shutter I work with (the 1st model, the green one).
I've discussed the problem when I bought it and we, me and the guy from the store, came up with a solution to avoid buying another shutter, specifically for this lens.
I've placed the shutter in between the two bellows...
If this is the problem, either I buy another shutter or I use the bag bellows in place of the normal one an keep it as closed as possible.
I don't have the camera with me, but here's a sketch.
242506

Could this be the problem?

[MartyNL]

That's the problem.

I don't know how close the rear element is to the shutter, but I'm surprised the obstruction couldn't be seen either by looking back through the lens towards the ground glass or on the ground glass itself?

A modern 300mm lens on 4x5" should give very bright and even illumination.

[Alan Klein]

Hello and thanks for the replies,

I bought the lens at a physical store where I go often.
They work with all kind large format cameras and photographic procedures, collodion, film, super 8...
The lens seems to be in order (see pics attached) but it's a simple lens without shutter.
242503242504242505

Keeping your remarks in mind I maybe found the problem. And its a bit of a stupid thing...
This lens rear element is too wide for the SINAR copal DB shutter I work with (the 1st model, the green one).
I've discussed the problem when I bought it and we, me and the guy from the store, came up with a solution to avoid buying another shutter, specifically for this lens.
I've placed the shutter in between the two bellows...
If this is the problem, either I buy another shutter or I use the bag bellows in place of the normal one an keep it as closed as possible.
I don't have the camera with me, but here's a sketch.
242506

Could this be the problem?

Doesn't this lens taken #3 shutter?

[rfesk]

Yes, it takes a #3 shutter - between the element groups not at the rear. Behind the lens the opening must be much larger than a #3 to avoid vignetting.

[Greg]

One solution would be to find a "top hat" lensboard that would extend foward the lens enough for it to clear the Sinar shutter mounted on the back of the front standard. I would have thought that your Rodenstock 300mm f5.6 Sironar-N MC would have come that way for use with a Sinar shutter. Maybe the original lensboard was replaced with flat Sinar board???

[SergioSanta]

I’m not sure, but it seems that lens board is already a kind of “top hat”?
242507

The SINAR shutter that I have has the same diameter as the rear element of the lens, so vignetting will always happen I suppose?
I'm going to try with bag bellows an see if it works nonetheless.

The alternative is to buy another shutter, but it seems to me that any other SINAR DB shutter will have the same problem... or the new models have bigger diameters?
Can someone advise the best solution?
These type of lenses sold without shutters must be paired with a specific SINAR DB.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm a newbie trying to swim in open waters...

[Greg]

I’m not sure, but it seems that lens board is already a kind of “top hat”?

Correct but not "top hat" enough for the lens to clear the Sinar shutter when the shutter is mounted on the back of the front standard. I once owned a projection lens with the same problem and had to mount that lens in its "top hat" in the front of a "top hat" Sinar lensboard.

[Neal Chaves]

This is the lensboard you need. I recently bought one from him and it is excellent. I am going to make a monocular viewer out of it with the right lens.

https://customcamerabuilding.com/en-us/products/185271583212

[Daniel Unkefer]

Why not trade your DB lens for an older Sinar 300mm Symmar, one made specifically to work with your Norma (green) shutter?

Sinar states that the rear cell should be within 1mm of the shutter blades. Old barrel mounted Sinar Symmars are not usually expensive. I paid $150 for this second one from Igor Reznik a few years ago.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51919961265_f2db917a07_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2n6ZnBX)5x7 TLR Norma 300mm Symmar matched pair (https://flic.kr/p/2n6ZnBX) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Matched Pair Sinar Norma 300mm f5.6 chrome Symmars 5x7 TLR Norma camera great for portraiture. 4x5 Reducing Backs and Reflex Viewfinder make it true TLR. I'm leaving this camera set up in the studio.

[Alan Klein]

A Rodenstock 300mm f5.6 Sironar-N MC is not a telephoto design, it's a plasmat.

What does that mean? What's the difference?

[djdister]

You should be able to clearly see the vignetting effect - are you looking at the extreme corners of the groundglass?

Also, are you sure the rear lens element is matched to the front element?

[LabRat]

It's a hard line at the edge of the IC, so probably an obstruction by shutter... With lens coverage, usually it starts to blob a little near edge of IC...

Coverage should be listed on spec sheets of that lens, but I think I used that lens in pro studio on Sinar 8X10 P with shutter and it worked fine... But check the specs...

Steve K

[Mark J]

What does that mean? What's the difference?

A plasmat is a 6-element more-or-less symmetrical lens with positive powers either side of the stop.
All Symmars, Sironars, Nikkor-W and Fuji W/WS/NW lenses are Plasmats. They are specifically characterised by having outer doublet elements with thin positive elements on the inside.

A telephoto deliberately uses a positive powered group at the front, then a separation, and a negative powered group at the rear, to increase the effective focal length ( image scale ) while reducing the overall length. The aperture stop can also be more towards the rear of the lens rather than central.

[Alan Klein]

A plasmat is a 6-element more-or-less symmetrical lens with positive powers either side of the stop.
All Symmars, Sironars, Nikkor-W and Fuji W/WS/NW lenses are Plasmats. They are specifically characterised by having outer doublet elements with thin positive elements on the inside.

A telephoto deliberately uses a positive powered group at the front, then a separation, and a negative powered group at the rear, to increase the effective focal length ( image scale ) while reducing the overall length. The aperture stop can also be more towards the rear of the lens rather than central.

Thanks, Mark, for a technical explanation of the designs. What does that mean to a layman from a practical point of view in the selection of lenses and their applicability?

[Alan Klein]

In other words, when would someone pick a telephoto or a Plasmat?

[LabRat]

A true telephoto requires less bellows draw than the normal FL, so cameras (like field) can accommodate a longer lens without running out of bellows extension... But the drawback is that the lens Nodal points are not internal (normally) and tilts/swings get screwy and difficult to add correction evenly...

Steve K

[Mark J]

Telephotos have trouble covering a large field angle, so they will have much less image circle than a Plasmat of the same focal length.
Their advantage is the reduced bellows draw , as LabRat says. For instance, a Fujinon T 300mm will just cover 5x7" without movements, whereas a 300mm Apo-Symmar will cover 8x10" with generous movements and i think 10x12" if needed. However the Fuji needs around 100mm less bellows.

[Alan Klein]

I have a Nikon Nikkor M 300mm F9 Copal 1 Shutter Large Format Lens for my Chamonix 45H-1 field camera that has a max bellows draw of 350mm. What type of lens is this a telephoto or plasmat? Is this lens OK for me? It seems to work at long distances near infinity, but I only used it once or twice.

[Mark J]

The Nikkor M is a Tessar-type. It's a modern variant of the very excellent 4-element design by Paul Rudolph at Zeiss from 1902. It doesn't have as much angle coverage as a Plasmat, but this doesn't matter since the 300mm Nikkor will cover 8x10" at infinity. Its performance close up will be slightly inferior to a plasmat eg. Apo-Symmar, but still pretty good down to 1:5 or so.

[Lachlan 717]

To bring this back onto topic:

Open the aperture up and project an outside image onto a darkened inside wall.

At least this will either rule in or out an image circle issue, as this lens should easily cover 8x10”, let alone 4x5”…

[B.S.Kumar]

Hello and thanks for the replies,

I bought the lens at a physical store where I go often.
They work with all kind large format cameras and photographic procedures, collodion, film, super 8...
The lens seems to be in order (see pics attached) but it's a simple lens without shutter.
242503242504242505

Keeping your remarks in mind I maybe found the problem. And its a bit of a stupid thing...
This lens rear element is too wide for the SINAR copal DB shutter I work with (the 1st model, the green one).
I've discussed the problem when I bought it and we, me and the guy from the store, came up with a solution to avoid buying another shutter, specifically for this lens.
I've placed the shutter in between the two bellows...
If this is the problem, either I buy another shutter or I use the bag bellows in place of the normal one an keep it as closed as possible.
I don't have the camera with me, but here's a sketch.
242506

Could this be the problem?

There is something else going on. I have a Norma shutter listed for sale on the forum, and I measured the shutter diameter to be 75mm - the same as a later DB shutter. https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/02096/02096.pdf where it says on page 2: "The 75 mm clearance diameter of the shutter takes lenses with rear mounts up to 82 mm."

Kumar

[Alan Klein]

The Nikkor M is a Tessar-type. It's a modern variant of the very excellent 4-element design by Paul Rudolph at Zeiss from 1902. It doesn't have as much angle coverage as a Plasmat, but this doesn't matter since the 300mm Nikkor will cover 8x10" at infinity. Its performance close up will be slightly inferior to a plasmat eg. Apo-Symmar, but still pretty good down to 1:5 or so.

Now you have me really confused. So my lens is a third variant not yet discussed. It's neither a telephoto nor a plasmat, but a Tessar. What's a Tessar? (My lens is a Nikon Nikkor M 300mm F9 Copal 1 Shutter Large Format Lens on a 4x5 Chamonix 45H-1 field camera that has a max bellows draw of 350mm. ) The tables say it has a 325mm circle. Isn;t that that enough to prevent vignetting on a 4x5 field camera using minimum field tilting?

What do you mean that its slightly inferior to a apo-symmar. In what way? What does 1:5 mean?

[Daniel Unkefer]

I'm not familiar with modern Sinar Shutters. I do have six Olde Green Norma Shutters, so quite familiar with those.

How close is the rear mount of the lens to the blades of the shutter? As you pull the lens forward of the shutter, it will cause BARREL VIGNETTING. Sinar clearly stated that the shutter opening will vignette, the optimum setups is -1mm- from back of the lens to the shutter blades. Can modern DB lenses even be used properly with Norma Shutters? How would you set the aperture on the lens?? I know there is a knob on the modern shutter to set the f/stop. My guess is that you have a total mismatch between Olde Norma and Newer Sinar. Not everything was compatible.

I suppose the DB lens could be cannibalized and remounted to work with the Norma Shutter. That would be a lot of work.

Another good option would be a 300 F9 Apo Ronar on a flat Norma board. Not expensive in barrel.

[Mark J]

Alan, I'll start another thread for your questions. Give me 2-3 hours, busy right now.

[B.S.Kumar]

I'm not familiar with modern Sinar Shutters. I do have six Olde Green Norma Shutters, so quite familiar with those.

How close is the rear mount of the lens to the blades of the shutter? As you pull the lens forward of the shutter, it will cause BARREL VIGNETTING. Sinar clearly stated that the shutter opening will vignette, the optimum setups is -1mm- from back of the lens to the shutter blades. Can modern DB lenses even be used properly with Norma Shutters? How would you set the aperture on the lens?? I know there is a knob on the modern shutter to set the f/stop. My guess is that you have a total mismatch between Olde Norma and Newer Sinar. Not everything was compatible.

I suppose the DB lens could be cannibalized and remounted to work with the Norma Shutter. That would be a lot of work.

The OP's lens is in a DBM mount, which allows setting the aperture on the lens. There is a red button on the protrusion on the lens barrel that permits setting the aperture.

Kumar

[Daniel Unkefer]

The OP's lens is in a DBM mount, which allows setting the aperture on the lens. There is a red button on the protrusion on the lens barrel that permits setting the aperture.

Kumar

Thanks Kumar!

Can you attach that DB lens directly to a Norma with Norma Shutter attached? I would guess not, because he added the bag bellows in front of the shutter., moving the rear cell forward caused barrel vignetting?? Sure looks like it to me. Incompatible vintages of Sinar?

[B.S.Kumar]

All lenses in DB and DBM mounts can be physically mounted on any Sinar camera, including the Norma. DB lenses can be used only fully wide open with a Norma shutter because the shutter lacks the pin that engages with the aperture coupler on the back of the DB lens board. DBM lenses can be used by setting the aperture manually.

My guess is that the lens may not be mounted in the correct lens board. I can't think of any other reason for the vignetting. Rodenstock's data says the rear lens barrel has an 80mm diameter, which is below the 82mm limit given in the shutter manual.

Kumar