Sheet film not square

[JohnF]

I am using 5x4 sheet film in a Wista 45DX.
Occasional frames are not being exposed ‘squarely’ in that the exposed film is slightly oblique to the edges of the film.
I have yet to see whether it happens with only one particular film holder but can I ask as to what might lead this to happen?
I am thinking that I may have loaded the film poorly but the film holder has rails that should keep the film in the right position. Or perhaps I didn’t insert the film holder in the camera correctly but I always try to check it is properly seated.
What do you think?
Thanks

[Serge S]

I get that with Foma film, usually not an issue with Ilford or Kodak.
Also - sometimes it may shift in the film holder.
You can tap the holder to settle/right the film I think...

[ic-racer]

The film should be rectangular. You can check the two diagonals which should measure the exact same distance.

Contact the film manufacturer and see what they say if you send the defective film back to them.

[Fred L]

There's some play in the rails so uneven edges can happen. I try to tap my holders to seat the film better before loading into the back. But what ^ poster said above about measuring to see if film is squared.

[BrianShaw]

what ^ poster said above about play and tapping...

[Doremus Scudder]

If the image area is not aligned with the film rectangle (i.e., the image is skewed on the film and the rebate is not even), then you have likely mis-loaded your film. If one edge of the film is not under the retaining rail on one side, that is what happens. Work on your loading technique.

I always pull up gently on both sides of the film after loading a holder to make sure it is securely seated under both rails.

Best,

Doremus

[JohnF]

Thanks for the replies. I think Doremus is right - I need to take more care with loading. I always feel for the lugs on the rails and ensure that the film is passing correctly beneath them but will check more stringently that the sheet feels ‘set’ correctly before locking it in.

[Drew Wiley]

It is impossible for ordinary film holders to seat film completely right. There has to be some wiggle room in there. Only with something like a pin-registered vacuum back or special holder, along with an especially designed extra-rigid camera, or a graphics process camera, can this issue be consistently and totally avoided. Otherwise, one must correct for it during printing or digital editing.

But on a more conventional level, the issue is more noxious in the case of either uncharacteristically thin sheet film, or even thick films which tend to have more ragged or sharper edges and corners resisting completely smooth insertion (like I've encountered with Foma sheet film myself). Just requires a little more conscious care and double checking when inserting these in the first place.

[BrianShaw]

Thanks for the replies. I think Doremus is right - I need to take more care with loading. I always feel for the lugs on the rails and ensure that the film is passing correctly beneath them but will check more stringently that the sheet feels ‘set’ correctly before locking it in.

If you really want validation, post a picture of the negative in question.

[Vaughn]

I recommend to tap the holder on one's palm before inserting into the camera. The larger the format the more this becomes important (IMO -- although perhaps less of a problem with panoramic formats -- 8x20, etc). Of course, if one has sky in the image and IF there is dust in the holder, that tap sends it down to the sky!

But several times in the last 40 years I have made long exposures where the film starts out crooked in the holder, and falls into its proper place mid-way thru the exposure. One corner usually is still pretty sharp, though...:cool:

All my exposures are long under the redwoods, so tapping has become automatic.

I would also consider that the crooked film could have been loaded squarely -- the film in film holders is free to move around and get crooked while being transported (especially if stored flat) -- and moves in the holder when the holder is turned in one's hands. Tapping the holder is cheap insurance...but keep your holders clean!

[Drew Wiley]

If there's a risk of slipping or buckling or bowing during a long exposure, I resort to adhesive film holders. Or really, that's the style of 8X10 film holder I choose anytime I anticipate a big critical enlargement (mostly with reference to color photography, but sometimes b&w subjects too).

I generally load holders in the cleanest section of my darkroom complex, and individual wrap them in plastic bags. Still, it's hard to totally control things if out in an area with pollen flying around, or out in the desert, or near a dusty road. But if you don't start out with holders and film as clean as possible at first, the degree of necessary spotting will only become worse if things are dusty when you're out shooting. Don't forget to get any dust out of your bellows too, and off even the "darkcloth", which shouldn't be any kind of linty cloth at all !

[JohnF]

As requested:
241769

[Kevin Crisp]

Film at the top was not in the proper position in the track/slot. It was on top of the groove it was supposed to be in. After sliding the sheet in holder, feel for the edge of the opening to the slots to confirm the film isn't on top instead of inside. Most of us have done this at least once.

Double exposure?

[JohnF]

I always do try to make sure that I feel the film travelling beneath the guide lugs on the rails but accept I perhaps did not do so with this sheet.
I’m glad I posted this query because of the useful tips provided through the thread.
No double exposure, Kevin. The picture was a grab shot on my phone and I think there may have been reflections from a window close by. The negative does look a little odd but is fine and has produced a pleasing image.

241770

[Kevin Crisp]

After the sheet is fully inserted, I slip the tip of a fingernail under the edge of the front of the slot on each side. Just to make sure. The good news, as I've discovered from making the mistake a few times, is that the photo will be fine if you stop down a lot.

[Tin Can]

I always check by doing the same

Before that I found disappearing FILM

The 4X5 was inside the bellows sprung next to bellows side

[Vaughn]

Film at the top was not in the proper position in the track/slot. It was on top of the groove it was supposed to be in. After sliding the sheet in holder, feel for the edge of the opening to the slots to confirm the film isn't on top instead of inside. ...
I disagree, Kevin -- both sides of the film were definitely under the rails.

Edit to add:

1) film was flat in the holder -- no out-of-focus areas on the negative which would be caused by a buckled neg
2) rebate on all sides of the negative -- not just even -- so film was under all rails
3) it is near impossible to have one side of the film partly under and partly over a rail at the same time

[Kevin Crisp]

You are assuming that the "rebate" can only be left by film under the rails. I agree the film can't be buckled mid-holder.

But if one side is loaded not in the rails (as must be the case since there is no clear area corresponding with the lip of the channel) then it can ride up and pick up a shadow from the long edge of the plastic on the film holder. One side rides just under the darkslide when inserted.

[Vaughn]

No...shadow line too sharp to be caused by anything but the rails. Spent several decades helping students ID such issues.

A warning about tapping one's holders, mostly with larger wooden ones. If you are making a vertical image and you tap the taped end (hinge) of the holder, there is the possibility of the film sliding into the light-trap area of the hinge. This part of the film will not get exposed, and of course the other end will have no rebate and not cover all the intended image. I had this happen a couple times with my older 11x14 holders...I now hold the hinge area a little tighter to prevent this.

PS -- A thought...I imagine issues like the OP's might increase if the film was cut a little too narrow.

PS#2 -- wild thought. It might be nice if film manufacturers would slightly round the corners of the sheet film (as done with x-ray film). Reduces the chance of film misalignment in the holders, as the rounded edges would let the film slide easier. Makes it easier to load film, especially into wood holders where the sharp film corners tend to dig into the wood if not slid in perfectly straight. Less damage in processing without pointy film corners to scratch other sheets.

[BrianShaw]

I’m not very good at reading notch codes. What film are we looking at here?

[Michael R]

I’m not very good at reading notch codes. What film are we looking at here?

Looks like FP4+

[BrianShaw]

Looks like FP4+

Thanks. I was thinking that I might not be shocked about possible miscutting of "off brands". I have a hard time thinking that FP4+ would be poorly cut. Have we seen anything lie that in the past?

[Michael R]

Not that I recall offhand but I could easily be wrong. This case just looks to me like the film somehow wasn’t properly seated in the holder


Thanks. I was thinking that I might not be shocked about possible miscutting of "off brands". I have a hard time thinking that FP4+ would be poorly cut. Have we seen anything lie that in the past?

[Fred L]

as Kevin suggests ^, I also lift the film at the hinge end to make sure the film is seated under the rails properly. The rare times I don't load the film under the rails, the dark slide will often be problematic pulling out and pushing back in.

[JohnF]

It’s Ilford FP4+

[Dugan]

A couple of years ago, I had a box of Rollei Infrared 4x5 that had 3 or 4 sheets that were cut undersized...I gave them away here to someone who was shooting 3x4 and could cut them down to useful size.
Stuff happens. <shrug>

[sharktooth]

I recommend to tap the holder on one's palm before inserting into the camera. The larger the format the more this becomes important (IMO -- although perhaps less of a problem with panoramic formats -- 8x20, etc). Of course, if one has sky in the image and IF there is dust in the holder, that tap sends it down to the sky!

But several times in the last 40 years I have made long exposures where the film starts out crooked in the holder, and falls into its proper place mid-way thru the exposure. One corner usually is still pretty sharp, though...:cool:

All my exposures are long under the redwoods, so tapping has become automatic.

I would also consider that the crooked film could have been loaded squarely -- the film in film holders is free to move around and get crooked while being transported (especially if stored flat) -- and moves in the holder when the holder is turned in one's hands. Tapping the holder is cheap insurance...but keep your holders clean!

That's a very nice explanation. I'd never heard about this issue before, but it makes perfect sense. I'll have to add the tap dance to my repertoire.

[Vaughn]

as Kevin suggests ^, I also lift the film at the hinge end to make sure the film is seated under the rails properly. The rare times I don't load the film under the rails, the dark slide will often be problematic pulling out and pushing back in.

After lifting as Kevin suggests, I slide my finger over to the notches and use them to wiggle the film back and forth to make sure it is well-seated at the opposite end of the holder. If the film has been loaded at an angle, it won't wiggle easily.

It is so automatic, I had forgotten I do it. I also do it to double check that I loaded emulsion outwards!

How many of us here have ended up with a piece of film 'mysteriously' ending up in the bellows?! :cool:

[Doremus Scudder]

I’m going to disagree with Vaughn this time. This exactly the result I’ve got when I’ve misloaded a holder and one side of the film is not under the retaining rail. The edges of the holder and the opening in the camera back account for the “rebate” clear areas. Sometimes the neg is still sharp enough to make a good print. Sometimes the film falls out of the holder enough when the dark slide is pulled that reinserting the slide pops the film into the bellows or jams on the way in.

Best,

Doremus

[Tin Can]

Thank you

I was 'baffled'


I’m going to disagree with Vaughn this time. This exactly the result I’ve got when I’ve misloaded a holder and one side of the film is not under the retaining rail. The edges of the holder and the opening in the camera back account for the “rebate” clear areas. Sometimes the neg is still sharp enough to make a good print. Sometimes the film falls out of the holder enough when the dark slide is pulled that reinserting the slide pops the film into the bellows or jams on the way in.

Best,

Doremus

[Vaughn]

I’m going to disagree with Vaughn this time....

Doremus

Excellent! I'll hold to my opinion at this point...the negative in-hand would be of help.

[wooserco]

I always check by doing the same

Before that I found disappearing FILM

The 4X5 was inside the bellows sprung next to bellows side

How many of us have never had THAT happen:)

[wooserco]

I always check by doing the same

Before that I found disappearing FILM

The 4X5 was inside the bellows sprung next to bellows side

see post #35

[BrianShaw]

see post #35

Anxiously waiting; are we there yet?

[esearing]

for 4x5 film loading I pull the film back to the ridge or raised area (on Riteway holders) . This seems to straighten the film better and center everything. I also find if I only pull out the slides to the edge of the top slots I can load the film more accurately in the bottom slots.