Jobo Development and Drums

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

I have apparently one of the small CPE 2+ units and mostly use the 2500 series drums. Have been revisiting a lot of the docs recently after a two-year digital interlude and coming back to film for fun... and leaving the digital "for events" where it fits best. I've run hundreds of rolls and 4X5 sheets thru my Jobo, but the articles on those of us Jobo AND 4X5 users aren't as common as might be otherwise. So picked up a new-to-me Reveni meter and kind of excited again (always a good thing).

Couple of questions for those doing 4X5:

1) Are the Expert Drums really all that much "better" in results (consistent, streakless, less developer requirement, etc) than the 2500 series with the funky flapper 2509 reels? The prices are "mega" and while I've seen youtubes of handrollers and refit of a Uniroller motor to turn the whole thing, there also thee inconvenience of a newer and bigger piece of hardware (though I do have a Uniroller that could be converted).

2) Finley's book and Jobo admonish not to dilute Stock more than 1:1, but given the aeration of roller development 100% of the time, I've wondered whether in fact Stock might be closer to 1:1 than I'd assumed. My own failed experiments with replenished developers and Jobo usage resulted in Jobo's own comments that the effects of aeration in roller development made the combination unlikely to lead to the sorts of results intended with replenishment.... so that led me back to the dilution thought. Similarly, in some places (Jobo and Ilford) documentation suggests cutting development times in using a Jobo. I haven't done that.

3) Finley suggests that ID11 and Jobo development are a great combination. I have a lot of ID11 on hand, a bit of Perceptol, and then still quite a bit of chemistry to make D23, some fixer, and probably the ingredients for a simple Asorbic Acid Stop. I'd been using a water stop and I'm aware there are or were a number of folks who talked me into this on the basis that an acid stop would harm my films, but I've also seen plenty who recommended it for Jobo nonetheless. Much as I admire Pyro in all its varieties, I live in an environmetally sensitive area so that's not likely my first go to... but I'm also confident the recomposed "modern" chems coming out are fine enough to not be incompatible... and offer the sort of consistency I didn't manage to get in playing with Caffenol on the same eco friendly kick. That said, I'm always open to suggestions...

4) Alternative uses of the Jobo: Mostly I haven't tried: Mixing chems (inversions) during Stand or Semi-Stand development and then removing the tank for the "STAND" parts. Some don't use a Jobo for the inversion part either given a proclivity to want to keep that "gentle", but then use it for all the subsequent washes, stops, fixes and clears, etc. I see a lot more folks post pictures giving the equivalent of the EXIF data, but without much info on the actual process. I guess since only Ansel was Ansel.... the rest of us figure "nobody cares".... and while often true... well... less isn't always more.

Thanks for any insights shared. Best to all for a continued beautiful summer here and hopefully wherever you might be!

[Joshua Dunn]

I have been developing in Jobo expert drums forever. There probably are some technical benefits to the expert drums over the 2600 series, however those may be subjective, or only detectable with a good scanner. If your negatives (from a processing perspective) look and perform the way you want then there is no issue. The biggest benefit to the expert series is the number of negatives you can process at a time. Both drums will use similar amounts of chemistry, the Jobo 3010 can process 10 sheets of 4x5 at a time as opposed to six (I think) for the 2600. So if you shoot a fair amount of film at one time, the expert drum is well worth it. The expert drums are also (at least to me) easier to load.

As far as developing, that is different for everyone. If you want to get really technical about it, find someone who has a densitometer (or buy a used one) and start photographing grey cards, which may be more technically complicated that you think. Develop in any developer you choose, developing one sheet at a time. Adjust your development time until you get the the correct density for 18% grey. That will give you a standard development time for a "normal" negative. You can adjust for the Zone system based on that. It will be different for every developer/film combination. Use distilled water for all of your chemistry.

There are lots of different techniques for developing, again use what works for you. Be aware that stand developing is the opposite of processing with a Jobo. It will be have to be tested separate from your Jobo results.

-Joshua

[Michael R]

If at all possible find someone or a lab that will let you run some careful tests with a well maintained Expert drum on a Jobo machine. I know that’s a tall order but the thing is this stuff is very expensive (my opinion) and I know of zero objective evidence. It’s all anecdotal, even from otherwise good sources, and I’d really want to see the results for myself.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Thank you for the recommendations. I've tried 12 shots in the 2505 series - 2 2509 reels - and cut that rather quickly to 4 sheets per roll. I guess I'm getting more and more conservative in thinking that maybe undiluted, 1 reel and just see what happens before pushing too far. Looking at the details among my printed and available sources, I'm thinking I was too aggressive before and will work with a LOT less to see if it ups the quality. And yes, hesitant to spend for a $600 drum when the $180 already gives me a nose bleed. "One step at a time...." or "Two steps forward and one step back..." are kind of the same thing.

[Vaughn]

Considering their resale value, Expert Drums are not expensive.

[Graham Patterson]

Jobo 1500/2500/2800 tanks/drums have minimum and maximum solution levels for rotary processing. Developers have a stated capacity (1 roll 35mm or 120 equates to 8x10 inches of area). How much dilution you can do depends on which limit you hit first - capacity or active ingredients. If you load 6 sheets of 4x5 in a 2509 reel, use the minimum volume (270ml) in a single reel tank and then dilute _a lot_, expect problems. That's doing 1 1/2 rolls equivalent of film in under 300ml of solution. It's a constraint of rotary processing. A CPE2+ might be able to accept more than 600ml in a tank/drum, but that's the limit for the motor.

Running less than 6 sheets in a 2509 reel is not uncommon with some developers.

[Alan9940]

I've used the Jobo Expert Drums to develop 4x5 and 8x10 on my CPP 2, since the mid-90's. Never used the 2509 reel so no idea if the Expert Drums are better, etc. I can tell you for fact that the Expert Drums provide much more consistent and even development vs tray processing (my developing method for sheet film until I got the Jobo.) As for dilutions, I've only ever made sure that I had whatever minimum of stock developer was necessary for whatever total square inches of film being developed. That said, I can't remember using any formula beyond a 1:1 dilution so, perhaps, inadvertently I was within guidelines. My only "special" developing treatment is when using PMK Pyro. I mix twice what would normally be needed (normal dilution) and change the solution at the mid-point of development to minimize the effects of oxidation.

[Fred L]

I have the 25xx tanks and the 4x5 reel with 'wings'. I also have Expert drums for 4x5 (5x7 and 8x10 as well) and much prefer the Expert over the 25xx. Strangely, everyone recommends a slight decrease in dev time because of constant agitation but I found regular times worked for me. Maybe it's the oxidation factor but film processed in Pyrocat HD looks fine with no decrease in time. This is all visual and not measured with densitometer readings.

As Vaughn advises, the price of the Expert drums may be intimidating initially but the resale should temper that shock. Just make sure you have the foot pump to release the lid ;)


Also, I don't believe you can spin Expert drums with the CPE, you'll need a CPP-2, ideally with the upgraded motor.

[ic-racer]

Comparing B&W 8x10 film between the Expert drum and the 2500 'Paper' drum, the 2500 drum does not wet the entire back surface of the film. This may or may not cause a problem.

The Expert drum is pretty amazing. I have loaded B&W 8x10 film backwards (emulsion outward) in the cylinders and achieved complete normal development.

In terms of developer and dilution, if the developer exhausts during the process, one manifestation is less development in the center of the negative. So, if the edges are coming out too dense, consider the center may be under-developed and try to increase the amount of active developer in the tank.

[Larry Gebhardt]

It’s been a while since I ran any sheets with the 2509 reels, but I remember the film came out fine. But I prefer the expert drums for ease of loading and the ability to handle larger than 4x5 sizes.

The CPE won’t accept the expert drums so you will also be looking at a new processor or roller setup as well.

I’m surprised some company in China isn’t making knock offs of the expert drums. They are very simple and I’d expect it wouldn’t be that hard to design.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Thank you again.

Another item in John Finch’s book that i guess slipped by me earlier is the idea that development for scanning (i.e. hybrid for ink printing) should be done from negatives under developed to hold the density back almost 30%. Wow! Really? Just as mentioned the oft recommended shorter rotary development times are in practice subjective, i guess i can’t say i’ve really seen this given… though that i haven’t tested it either. Thoughts? I’ve listened to comments that we want lower contrast for scanning… but hmmm.

[Alan9940]

I’ve listened to comments that we want lower contrast for scanning… but hmmm.

Been scanning all formats of film from 35mm to 8x10 for 20+ years on flatbed and dedicated film scanners and I've never modified my development times for scanning. I use the same tested development times whether scanning or printing in the wet darkroom.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Would love the idea of a knock-off smaller 3000 series / style drum that would fit on the same machine. The 2509 reels even with the loader seem more reliable with 4 sheets… and plenty have confirmed this as it is just easy for 2 sheets to inadvertently touch and ruin the process. Once is one time too many… changing the idea behind exposure bracketing into “a dupe in case i screw up the 2509 reel.” Who needs that?

Last thought: I’m increasingly convinced the larger tanks in the 2500 series may just be too much for the machine and 2 reels of 4x5 - even with only 8 sheets - might under developer the effort. Will have to check this when i get back from out of town. C41 with 3 rolls of 120 works fine, but that’s a different issue suggesting i redo / recheck the math. Just thinking out loud.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Thank you again.

Another item in John Finch’s book that i guess slipped by me earlier is the idea that development for scanning (i.e. hybrid for ink printing) should be done from negatives under developed to hold the density back almost 30%. Wow! Really? Just as mentioned the oft recommended shorter rotary development times are in practice subjective, i guess i can’t say i’ve really seen this given… though that i haven’t tested it either. Thoughts? I’ve listened to comments that we want lower contrast for scanning… but hmmm.

I can’t see the benefit for sheet film. I believe the idea is you get smaller grain with less development. However you lose film speed and the ability to print with an enlarger. You also are stretching the data more from the scanner to get a full range of tones. Any good scanner should be able to handle the limited density of a normally developed negative, and even one developed for alternative processes. After all velvia blacks are denser than any negative you are likely to produce and most scanners can almost handle those.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Would love the idea of a knock-off smaller 3000 series / style drum that would fit on the same machine. The 2509 reels even with the loader seem more reliable with 4 sheets… and plenty have confirmed this as it is just easy for 2 sheets to inadvertently touch and ruin the process. Once is one time too many… changing the idea behind exposure bracketing into “a dupe in case i screw up the 2509 reel.” Who needs that?

Last thought: I’m increasingly convinced the larger tanks in the 2500 series may just be too much for the machine and 2 reels of 4x5 - even with only 8 sheets - might under developer the effort. Will have to check this when i get back from out of town. C41 with 3 rolls of 120 works fine, but that’s a different issue suggesting i redo / recheck the math. Just thinking out loud.

For 4x5 in an expert drum you normally have plenty of room for developer, assuming your machine can handle the weight. For example the 3010 will process 10 sheets, which is equivalent to 2.5 rolls of film. The tank can hold a full liter, which is about the limit for most Jobo processors. The 3005 is another story. It holds 5 8x10 sheets, which is only 200ml per roll/sheet assuming you limit volumes to a liter. Most diluted developers need more than that even before you add in extra oxidation from rotation.

[Vaughn]

...The 3005 is another story. It holds 5 8x10 sheets, which is only 200ml per roll/sheet assuming you limit volumes to a liter. Most diluted developers need more than that even before you add in extra oxidation from rotation.

One easy way of handling that is to do two developer runs.

[Larry Gebhardt]

One easy way of handling that is to do two developer runs.

Do you just swap out the developer part way through for fresh? Are the times the same that way?

[Vaughn]

There will be slight differences (time to drain out the first batch, 2nd dev might be a little more active, etc), so some slight adjusts might need to be made -- I did not worry about it. Unless you are doing incredibly tight work such as masking, color separations and such, you might not see any difference.

[ic-racer]

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?23322-Rotary-Processing-Rodinal

[Peter De Smidt]

I use Jobo Expert drums for LF development. They work great, and they are very easy to load. I haven't used the reels for LF..... If they are way cheaper, then I recommend buying one and giving it a try. If your results are good, then you're all set. Check for evenness of development and extra edge density. One sheet expose to say an even Zone V should tell you a lot. I used to use Xtol at up to 1+3, as Kodak had development times for that. I never noticed a problem. I mainly developed 5-4x5 of TMX sheets in 1 liter of developer.

[tgtaylor]

If you are processing multiple sheets at a time, consider carefully Kodak's recommendation for processing time:

Using Full-Strength Developer
Choose the appropriate table for development times and
temperatures for using fresh, full-strength XTOL
Developer. The capacity of the full-strength developer with
normal, unreplenished processing is approximately 15 rolls
of 135-36 or 120 film (or the equivalent of 80 square inches
[516 square centimetres]) per litre, with time
compensation.
To process the maximum number of rolls of film per litre
of full-strength XTOL Developer, use time compensation
according to the table below. Discard the developer after
you process 15 rolls of film per litre.
*80 square inches = one 135-36 or 120 roll, four 4 x 5-inch sheets, or one 8 x
10-inch sheet; 160 square inches = one 220 roll.
STORAGE LIFE OF UNUSED SOLUTIONS
In Full, Tightly
Closed
Container
In Partially Filled,
Tightly Closed
Container
In Replenisher Tank
with Floating Lid
6 months At least 2 months
Indefinitely if new
solution is added to
replaced that used by
the processor
Time Compensation
for KODAK PROFESSIONAL XTOL Developer
Film Size Number of Rolls
(per litre)
Development-Time
Increase
135-36
or 120 rolls
(80 square
inches* or
equivalent)
1 to 5 Use normal
development time
6 to 10
Increase normal
development time by 15
percent
11 to 15
Increase adjusted
development time by 15
percen

I use both expert drums and the 2509N reels for 4x5 and both deliver the same results. However, it takes a little practice to load the 2509N with 6 sheets. What I did was to use 6 discarded negatives and practiced loading the reel in the light paying close attention to how the reel was loaded and how to check that it was inserted correctly. Then in the darkness to verify that I had the procedure down. I found that you must start from the inside slot and work your way out verifying that each sheet was spaced correctly and firmly before proceeding to the next sheet. Also, pay close attention to how to place the wings for circulation correctly and how to check.

Thomas

[wooserco]

One thing that I noticed: you're using a JOBO CPE2+ and asked about expert drums. The CPE2 series can't use the expert drums. You have to go up to the larger CPA or CPP processors to use the expert drums. The expert drums won't even connect to the lift (if you're using the lift on your CPE2+).

Also, I don't see where you mentioned what developer that you are using.

I just kind of skimmed over all of the posts, but these two items stood out to me.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

wooserco: Thanks for close reading. I'm using the 2500 series of drums - both the 2 and the 5 series currently, but have wondered about the 3000 series and it's benefits. Yes, they don't fit my current machine so that's probably a non-starter. For developers, I'm using D23 and ID-11 mostly. And I was using them 1:1. Folks love Pyro but I've shied away on the handling requirements... and now that 510Pyro is a real "product".... maybe it will turn out I've been too concerned with the toxicity and environmental stuff, too and should just get over my heebie geebies. But I'm trying to resist the magic bullet approach and just refine the process.... and/or get it right before trying something else... as if user error weren't the problem but some inadequate material choice. There's always room to review my process to make sure I'm doing it "right".

For film I'm running mostly FP4 and HP5 but have some wild cards, too - all in the fridge.

Mostly, after some time off film shooting digital again, I'm returning and wanting to double cross my t's and dot my i's and see whether I need to button down a few things, and as you do so, your mind kind of gets jogged by a few thing I might have glossed over some time back, and wondering...."Was I doing that right?" and what not. And part of me is also wondering what and how I want to shoot.... whether I can dump some of my underused gear. And I'm remembering what pain to get 120 film on a Jobo reel.... and how easy by comparison the 2509 reels can be without the backing paper issues or sense that tracks on the Jobo reels just seem "too skinny". So much as I oderered a Horseman back for my 4X5 camera and I've been shooting some 120 in a beloved TLR, I'm just thinking as I'm doing this and this discussion is helping to sort out some details and cross check next steps.

Someone said we should all probably run C41 BEFORE B&W.... and I'll admit to agreeing with them that C41 is easier than B&W that seems to allow too many choices. C41 also clearly screams error when you blow it somewhere along the way. B&W.... your tone interpretation of the scene can kind lf make this harder. So that's what I'm about.... return to B&W and nail it. I've other questions about things like notching frame holders.... but asked Tim Layton about who's a fan of notching.... whether he notched his Chamonix holders and he admitted he didn't. I think their refined look and wood material choice makes that a daunting task to do just kind of willy nilly. Yet I'm still thinking some carefully drilled (by hand at slow speed) could work. But I haven't gone there.

[wooserco]

wooserco: Thanks for close reading. I'm using the 2500 series of drums - both the 2 and the 5 series currently, but have wondered about the 3000 series and it's benefits. Yes, they don't fit my current machine so that's probably a non-starter. For developers, I'm using D23 and ID-11 mostly. And I was using them 1:1. Folks love Pyro but I've shied away on the handling requirements... and now that 510Pyro is a real "product".... maybe it will turn out I've been too concerned with the toxicity and environmental stuff, too and should just get over my heebie geebies. But I'm trying to resist the magic bullet approach and just refine the process.... and/or get it right before trying something else... as if user error weren't the problem but some inadequate material choice. There's always room to review my process to make sure I'm doing it "right".

For film I'm running mostly FP4 and HP5 but have some wild cards, too - all in the fridge.

Mostly, after some time off film shooting digital again, I'm returning and wanting to double cross my t's and dot my i's and see whether I need to button down a few things, and as you do so, your mind kind of gets jogged by a few thing I might have glossed over some time back, and wondering...."Was I doing that right?" and what not. And part of me is also wondering what and how I want to shoot.... whether I can dump some of my underused gear. And I'm remembering what pain to get 120 film on a Jobo reel.... and how easy by comparison the 2509 reels can be without the backing paper issues or sense that tracks on the Jobo reels just seem "too skinny". So much as I oderered a Horseman back for my 4X5 camera and I've been shooting some 120 in a beloved TLR, I'm just thinking as I'm doing this and this discussion is helping to sort out some details and cross check next steps.

Someone said we should all probably run C41 BEFORE B&W.... and I'll admit to agreeing with them that C41 is easier than B&W that seems to allow too many choices. C41 also clearly screams error when you blow it somewhere along the way. B&W.... your tone interpretation of the scene can kind lf make this harder. So that's what I'm about.... return to B&W and nail it. I've other questions about things like notching frame holders.... but asked Tim Layton about who's a fan of notching.... whether he notched his Chamonix holders and he admitted he didn't. I think their refined look and wood material choice makes that a daunting task to do just kind of willy nilly. Yet I'm still thinking some carefully drilled (by hand at slow speed) could work. But I haven't gone there.

Wow, I've all but given up shooting color film. Just too costly for film. I am set up quite well to shoot and print in house digital color. Until COVID, I second shot weddings and did a few on my own. I found that I had more control keeping and printing everything in house.

Regarding the darkroom, I've fulfilled a childhood dream of having my own darkroom. I have a CPE2+ that I use to develop not only my 4x5 using the same equipment that you use, but also roll film and small format. I have three enlargers set up: one for each format. I could print RA4 if I chose to, but I'm not there yet. I have always used XTOL for my developer, and after my last batch of Kodak is gone, I'll probably switch to XT3.

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

C41 is easier than you think and saves a ton for color doing it yourself. I have a fridge full from some years back. But you're right that the prices are a bit daunting... likely because the relative cost today vs. the relative cost of old is harder to gauge than we think. Film was never cheap... and part of the reason we think of film as "slowing down" relates to how relatively expensive it was back in the day. As a 16-year-old, I shot an entire trip to England on three or four rolls of 35mm Kodachrome (which were lost when my folks moved). Five years ago I took my Rollieflex to France and shot a LOT of Portra 400. No regrets: the camera introduced me to a lot of former TLR shooters who introduced themselves over and over. Great camera! Today, I am realizing that the admonition to "just put film in the fridge" is a good one. Whether it's color or B&W, you won't regret it.

But FWIW, I got back into this hobby years ago to shoot B&W... my first love. I shoot film, but print with ink after scanning. So something suffers there. Much as I'd run through digital cameras one after another and sold them all off when I came back to film, like you, I realized digital comes in handy and picked up some Fuji's for the event photography I get roped into for my church. Family is mostly iPhone 13' series as the camera tends to intimidate them more than it should. If you have one, I highly recommend the ViewFinder app as really a good tool.

[wooserco]

MY problem shooting color and printing in the DR is this: I'm stone color blind. When shooting digital, I can rely on software to color correct. Printing color in the darkroom, I'm not sure. I have a color head for my Beseler 23CII and a JOBO, so processing isn't an issue. I was gifted a set of the Kodak color correction viewing filters, but I'd have to rely on my wife to judge.

Regarding the stone color blind statement: My opthilmologist did the test on me on my first visit. He stated that I was "textbook" color blind. My next appointment a year later, he had a collegue there to witness as he performed the test again. Same result.

So, probably no color darkroom printing for me, unless I can come across someone cleaning out a darkroom with chemicals and paper like I did with my B&W darkroom.

[Bormental]

I am using the 2500 series tanks with 2509n reels for B&W and C-41. Never had any problems with uneven development and I find them quick and easy to load. I cannot comment on the expert drums because I never used them.

The reason I selected the 2500-series instead of the larger drums is compactness. I didn't want yet another tank to occupy even more space in my laundry room. Being able to reuse the tank for 35mm, 120 and 4x5" (and mix formats in the same tank when developing) is valuable for me.

I've also struggled a bit with the minimum recommended volume of developer per area unit of film. So instead of my usual Xtol / ID-11, I've standardized on Ilfotec HC (HC-110 clone) because it offers wider range of working dilutions to control the amount of compensation / highlight compression. The additional bonus of extremely long shelf life doesn't hurt.

[EDIT] Here's a recent image (https://d3ue2m1ika9dfn.cloudfront.net/4x5/bw-boat.jpg) developed using this method. I can't see how a larger drum could have made a difference.

[younghoon Kil]

[EDIT] Here's a recent image (https://d3ue2m1ika9dfn.cloudfront.net/4x5/bw-boat.jpg) developed using this method. I can't see how a larger drum could have made a difference.

What an impressive result!
I'm curious about your B&W development process. :rolleyes:

[roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau]

Had just seen that shot on an HP5 thread... and it is absolutely stunning. Love it. Thanks!