Questions about two G-Claron's and a mystery (process?) lens

[nitroplait]

I picked up below lenses for a little pocket change - so little that I didn't put much thought into how to utilise them at the moment of purchase.
The seller didn't know anything other than he speculated that they likely was used for repro work, which sounds plausible.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53081222491_45ae8b6e0d_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53081426299_cc57478ff4_b.jpg

Back at home; the internet was not as informative on the Schneider G-Claron lenses as I had expected.
It seems like Schneider-Kreuznach have deleted much of their legacy lens information from their website.

I wonder if anyone here can supplement with some knowledge on the following:


1. Right: Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 150/9, f/9-64. Front filter diameter 35.5 mm. Serial number 13 473 980. I found the following information: https://kamerastore.com/products/schneider-kreuznach-150mm-f9-g-claron-enlarger

It doesn't say much on potential use, but as near field optimised, I thought this perhaps could be used as an 4X5 enlarger lens?


2. Left: Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 240/9, f/9-64. Front filter diameter 52mm. Serial number: 13 426 145.

Based on this: https://kamerastore.com/products/schneider-kreuznach-240mm-f9-g-claron-enlarger-13
The lens seems to be useable as a taking lens and possibly even allows mounting of a Copal #1 shutter. The lens in the link is said to be "glued" to an enlarger board. It is possible my lens is "glued" as well because when I apply medium force I cannot separate the front and rear.
I have never experienced "glued" in this manner before, though.

I imagine to use this as a taking lens on my 4X5 - I would be fine just mounting it to a lens board without shutter and use long "cap-exposures" with an ND filter if necessary.
I am guessing normal distance work will be OK even if the lens is optimised for near-field? (I don't do infinity landscape stuff).

Is there a way I could/should test if the distance between the front and rear parts of the lens are correctly spaced?
Visually it doesn't look to me like there is enough space for a Copal #1 shutter in the little space occupied by the enlarger board, so I am unsure what to make of that?


3. Center (more details in the photo below): Non branded single coated lens with font coated mirror behind the last element. 
I have no idea what this could have been used for.
If I screw it apart, there is a front group that can be separated from the rear element. A flashlight seems to indicate 3-4 elements altogether - 2-3 in the front and 1 in the rear. 
To my eyes it looks like half-a-lens which is terminated with the surface coated mirror,( which is held close to the rear element with a aluminium retaining ring). 

The front group seems very carefully aligned from the rear lens element with several paper-thin metal spacers.

Any idea what this lens could have been used for, and if there could be any practical application for general photographic purposes?

Anything that can shed a little light on these is much appreciated - thanks :)

I'd love to put these nicely made objects to good use.

[Mark J]

Both of the G-Clarons were available in shutter, and work very well from Infinity to 1:1 if stopped down. The 150 doesn't quite cover 4x5 at infinity, but does at closer distances.
Let me see if I can attach some datasheets, i recently received an extensive 'pack' of data on Schneider, which filled in some gaps in my collection.

Oops, looks like I only have the 150 and 270mm datasheets, not the 240.
I reckon you could get it via Internet Archive.
I will attach the 270 anyway.

241025241026

[jnantz]

hi nitroplait

this link has what you are looking for
https://web.archive.org/web/20040730090355/http://schneideroptics.com/

[Kevin Crisp]

They are both excellent lenses that should fit in Copal or Compur shutters. And not just for close ups. There is a ton of information on both on this website.

I beg to differ with Mark on coverage. The 150 mm version WILL cover 4X5 with much room to spare. I have used mine on 5X7 many times, including with quite a bit of front rise, and it covers fine when stopped down to f:22. After asking here if it would cover 4X10 and getting no answers I tried it and it did, barely.

The 240 will cover 8X10 with considerable room for movement. Internet lore has it that in the later production models, Schneider optimized them for infinity, but in truth they were always excellent at infinity when stopped down. Fred Picker of Zone VI did much to popularize them as general purpose lenses.

[Kevin Crisp]

The great camera eccentric site is still up and running. According to this Schneider brochure, the 150 g claron was considered an 8x10 lens: https://cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/schneider_5.pdf

[Mark J]

I beg to differ with Mark on coverage. The 150 mm version WILL cover 4X5 with much room to spare. I have used mine on 5X7 many times, including with quite a bit of front rise, and it covers fine when stopped down to f:22. After asking here if it would cover 4X10 and getting no answers I tried it and it did, barely.

Sorry, you are dead right. I've been looking at so much in the context of 5x7" lately, i have 105mm ingrained in my brain !
So the 150 will almost cover 5x7 at infinity, and will at closer distances.
You'd have to go towards 1:1 to get it to cover 8x10 though ? The G-Claron's coverage is often quoted at 1:1 in the datasheets.

[Dan Fromm]

OP, G-Clarons were sold for use in process cameras. As has already been mentioned in this discussion, they were optimized for near distances -- that's where process cameras work -- but are very usable at all distances.

There were two design types. Early, 6 elements in 2 groups, dagor types. Later, six elements in four groups, plasmat types. Both of yours are plasmat types. There's an entry in "the list" that explains this and tells how to recognize the two types. If you don't know what the list is, please ask.

I've shot a 150/9 plasmat type G-Claron against two 150/9 Apo-Ronars on 2x3. Same emulsion, same subjects, same apertures, same exposure times (same shutter). The Apo-Ronars were better for my purposes on 2x3. A G-Claron, either type, covers a larger circle than an Apo-Ronar of the same focal length.

Process lenses typically open no wider than f/9. There are faster better lenses for enlarging.

[arri]

A few days ago I tested my 9/150mm G-CLaron lens in 18x24cm film size, this a little bit smaller than 8x10" (20x25cm)
The lens were focused to oo. I used f/45
No shift of swings.
The lens shows small dark corners but it shows that it has nearly 90° angle of view.
It is the Dagor typ G-Claron but the newer Plasmat style lens has a similar performance, I guess.
I used a xray film Fuji UM-MA

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53008089396_c881d72727_k.jpg

[Kevin Crisp]

The 150 g claron will cover 5X7 with a lot of room to spare. As in 1.5 to 2" of rise room to spare. There is nothing "almost" about it.

[Mark J]

Interesting - I see what you mean, in that the resolution fall-off is not really happening at the quoted 94.5mm radial at f/22 is it ? - it still looks good.
... although the datasheet only shows 3, 6 and 12 lp/mm.
Are you talking about 'cover' for contact prints or enlargements ?
I can see a purchase coming up at some point on this .....

[Mark Sampson]

My employers bought a 150/9 G-Claron (in Compur shutter) in about 1988. We used it for close-up work on 4x5, at which it excelled. There was never any question of coverage under those circumstances, of course. @nitroplait, you've found a bargain.

[nitroplait]

Thanks all, great information and leads!

Coming from medium and smaller formats and being new to large format, I wasn't really familiar with lenses that can be used both for process and regular photography and much of the associated terminology.

The Internet Archive didn't capture far enough back to have data for the G-Claron 240/9 on the schneiderkreuznach.com site, but Schneideroptics.com was captured back to 1997 (https://web.archive.org/web/19970408053744/http://www.schneideroptics.com/large/G-Claron/claron.html) where there is data for many more G-Claron versions - and US list prices (wow- I did good - but I guess the quoted prices were including shutter not just aperture like mine).

It seems like they were sold in either "Barrel" or with shutter. Unfamiliar with the term "Barrel" in this context; I assume it means only-with-aperture and that is how my samples are configured.

Should I be able to separate the front and rear groups from the "barrel" and place them in a shutter - or are they fixed? As noted in my original post, they are not coming apart with medium force.




There's an entry in "the list" that explains this and tells how to recognize the two types. If you don't know what the list is, please ask.

Thanks Dan, I better take you up on that and ask what "the list" is then :)


A few days ago I tested my 9/150mm G-CLaron lens in 18x24cm film size, this a little bit smaller than 8x10" (20x25cm)
The lens were focused to oo. I used f/45

That is amazing coverage for such a tiny lens.


I guess I should make a separate thread for the mystery lens. It probably have no application in a large format context.

[Kevin Crisp]

The front and rear elements should unscrew from the barrel mount and screw into a Copal 0 (150mm) and Copal 1 shutter (240mm), respectively. You can check the spacing with calipers if you want but 99% of the time things will match perfectly.

If the front or rear is stuck, try grasping it and turning with one of those rubber things people use for stuck jars in the kitchen.

[Dan Fromm]

The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion has a link to an annotated list of links to web pages/sites of interest to (mainly) LF photographers. The list uses bookmarks as an index. The bookmarks don't work in browsers or, as far as I know, on cell phones. To get best and easiest use of the list, download it to a PC/Mac and read it with the pdf reader of your choice.

Cells of G-Clarons delivered in barrel are direct fits to the appropriate sized shutter. The barrels' tubes match those of Compur/Copal standard shutters.

About the mystery lens. Does it has a diaphragm or a slot for inserting Waterhouse stops?

[nitroplait]

...
If the front or rear is stuck, try grasping it and turning with one of those rubber things people use for stuck jars in the kitchen.

Thanks Kevin.

The front group edge of the 150/9 is set below the edge of the "barrel" and is difficult to grab with anything. The rear group seems stuck, but it is not a big deal with that lens, as I already own a Symmar 150/5.6 and don't see the big benefit of playing around with the 150/9 although it could be fun.
If I get a 4x5 enlarger I will try it out as an enlarging lens, perhaps.

I have just succeed unscrewing the rear group from the 240/9, and if the front is supposed to unscrew from the barrel as well, your suggestion could very well be the solution.
There is not much space to grip the edge of the front group above the "barrel", but I'll give it a go.

[nitroplait]

The first post in this https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138978-Where-to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion has a link to an annotated list of links to web pages/sites of interest to (mainly) LF photographers. The list uses bookmarks as an index. The bookmarks don't work in browsers or, as far as I know, on cell phones. To get best and easiest use of the list, download it to a PC/Mac and read it with the pdf reader of your choice.

Cells of G-Clarons delivered in barrel are direct fits to the appropriate sized shutter. The barrels' tubes match those of Compur/Copal standard shutters.

About the mystery lens. Does it has a diaphragm or a slot for inserting Waterhouse stops?

Thanks Dan. Very useful information.

The mystery lens does not have a diaphragm or other ways to control light transmission.
As noted in my original post, is has a surface coated mirror placed against the rear element.
If I shine a light (like a Lume Cube) into the lens, the details of the LED reflector is reflected back in focus from a distance of circa 50 cm. (does that make sense?)

The enclosed image shows the Lume Cube shine into the lens and the lens reflecting the image of the LED back onto the paper from a distance of 50cm.

241040

[Mark J]

This is starting to ring a bell for me, I think it might be for copying applications, we may have such lenses in our archive from the 70's and early 80's. The mirror is most likely at the aperture plane of a conventional plasmat, and so the beam sees the second passage, through the lenses in reverse, like the rear part of a conventional symmetrical lens. In fact, thinking a bit more while writing this, it could have been the economical solution to lenses around 1:1 magnification, in Xerox machines.

[Jim Andrada]

I've been happily using a 305mm Repro Claron for everything from 1970 on. Works fine on 5 x 7 - haven't tried it on 8 x 10 (yet). And I haven't developed radiation sickness from it either.

[Kevin Crisp]

If you want to take a walk on the radiation wild side, explore R Clarons.

[Drew Wiley]

It's been discussed many times before, but since the G-Claron line stems from process lenses, the spec sheets are geared to those very strict reproduction standards rather than less stringent general photographic needs, and factor far more conservative image circles.

Some of these obviously doubled as enlarging lenses. They aren't bad, but aren't the best in that respect either. And f/9 is not a detriment unless you need brighter easel viewing. My very best enlarging lenses are f/9 Apo Nikkors.

[Tin Can]

That reminds me Drew

I need to try my EL NIKKOR 240 mm f5.6 on my Deardorff

now need anther 8" lens board

Good idea!

Thank you

[John Layton]

I've had great luck using a 150 G-Claron (most recent design) as a wide angle enlarging lens for the 5x7 format - enabling really nice quality 30x40 prints done vertically on my Zone VI series II enlarger. Seems to be a "sweet-spot" for this lens when put to such a use.

[nitroplait]

I've had great luck using a 150 G-Claron (most recent design) as a wide angle enlarging lens for the 5x7 format - enabling really nice quality 30x40 prints done vertically on my Zone VI series II enlarger. Seems to be a "sweet-spot" for this lens when put to such a use.
Great to know.
My housing situation doesn’t allow a permanent darkroom, so my darkroom work is limited to medium format, 35mm and contact prints 3-5 times a year. But one can hope for a near future with a large format enlarger which doesn’t have to be put away :)

[nitroplait]

The front and rear elements should unscrew from the barrel mount and screw into a Copal 0 (150mm) and Copal 1 shutter (240mm), respectively. You can check the spacing with calipers if you want but 99% of the time things will match perfectly.

If the front or rear is stuck, try grasping it and turning with one of those rubber things people use for stuck jars in the kitchen.

I separated all now.
Your suggestion came in handy in combination with a sheet of rubber.
I can’t seem to separate the “aperture barrel” from the large circular plate.
It doesn’t matter too much now, but would be nice if it were to be used as an enlarger lens in the future.

[notorius]

I've had great luck using a 150 G-Claron (most recent design) as a wide angle enlarging lens for the 5x7 format - enabling really nice quality 30x40 prints done vertically on my Zone VI series II enlarger. Seems to be a "sweet-spot" for this lens when put to such a use.

Interesting! Does the relatively small aperture make focusing troublesome? What was the working aperture you were using for 30x40 prints?

[John Layton]

While I typically try for an enlarging lens aperture range of between 8 and 16, the fact that my Heiland LED VC light source is so very bright allows me to use the 150 G-Claron at what has been referred to by several knowledgeable folks as its "optimal" aperture of f/22.

What's interesting is that the 150 G-Claron (or at least my two examples) seems also to work optimally at around 4 to 6X (linear) magnification, and when pressed into service on my (DIY) horizontal enlarger, its performance falls apart somewhat when compared to my 180mm Companon-S lens. The Companon-S is also visibly sharper printing to sizes smaller than about 20 x 28.

But for anything from about 20 x 28 to 30 x 40 (from 5x7 negatives), that little G-Claron really excels!

While this lens is also a decent performer as a "taking" lens for the 5x7 format, it does not exactly knock my socks off - so in the field I tend to use a 150mm Apo-Symmar L, which performs a bit better (at least to my eye and methods of employment) but in truth I've always lusted after the ever-elusive, ultra pricy 150 Apo Sironar W.

[Mark J]

I do have some concerns about focusing around the picture on a 150/9 on 5x7" for mid-to-distant objects, the sharpness is pretty poor off-axis at f/9. May be OK in the desert in the US, maybe not so good in the UK....