Spotmeter for Zone System

[Fungus]

I’d like to get a spotmeter for Zone System work.

In the used market, the three models that pop up are the Pentax Digital Spot, the Minolta Spotmeter F, and the Gossen Ultra Spot.

Any reason to choose one of these over the others? Price-wise, the Minolta seems to be the least expensive and the Pentax typically goes for 2x the Minolta.

[xkaes]

The pond is much bigger than these three. For example, Minolta made FIVE different spot meters -- in addition to regular meters that accepted SPOT attachments.

http://www.subclub.org/minman/meters.htm

There are other spot meters that are just as good -- and some are exactly the same under a different label.

Where did you get the idea that you need a spot meter in order to use the Zone System? You don't.

And what do you consider a spot meter -- 10°, 5°, 1°???

[Alan9940]

IMO, you couldn't go wrong with a Sekonic L-558. But, as commented above you don't need a spot meter to practice the Zone System.

[Fungus]

Where did you get the idea that you need a spot meter in order to use the Zone System? You don't.

I never said that you did.

I’m specifically looking for a 1 degree meter.

[cgratham]

Hi Fungus,
I have the Pentax (Zone VI modified), Minolta FlashMeter III with spot attachment, and a Gossen Luna six that is supposed to do somewhat spot (can't remember the angle). I love the look of the Gossen but have never managed to get it calibrated right, so it's basically decoration now.

Functionally the Minolta and Pentax both seem to work just fine (the Pentax has a smaller angle/finer spot though) and are mostly in agreement (as is the spot meter mode on my digital camera). However, I prefer the workflow with the Pentax as it uses the EV values that I then just transfer to exposures. I end up really just using the Minolta for flash work or the rare time I need incident readings elsewhere. For most of my photography work - where I'm trying to apply zone system principles - it's the Pentax.

Can't comment of the price/value proposition as that varies from one person to the next.

Chris


I’d like to get a spotmeter for Zone System work.

In the used market, the three models that pop up are the Pentax Digital Spot, the Minolta Spotmeter F, and the Gossen Ultra Spot.

Any reason to choose one of these over the others? Price-wise, the Minolta seems to be the least expensive and the Pentax typically goes for 2x the Minolta.

[Mark Woods]

I've used the Minolta Spot Meter F for decades. The reason I chose it is, when the A (average button) is depressed, the meter gives a reading in 1/10's of a stop above the stop set when the A was pressed. I set the stop on the lens I want to use by reading the back of my hand. Press the A. Then I see stops above and below the stop on the lens. One could you a gray card to get an average of the light in the frame, then press A to see the above and below. I humbly disagree about using a spot meter for the zone system. I used to be able to take a reading in the field and be able to tell you the density. (I do own a densitometer). Good luck!

[MartyNL]

Until now, I've used my faithful Gossen Profisix with and without the spot meter attachment. And while bulky, it's very much an analogue experience with a needle and dials and it suits very much the way I like to work.

However, I've just picked up a Gossen spotmaster (aka ultra-spot) and I hope to give it a try and see if I can get along with it.

And perhaps I could also put a word in for the Soligor 1° spot meter, which, while not in the same league as a Pentax digital, it offers very good value for money.

[rdenney]

I’ve used the Pentax Spotmeter V, of which I have several, but they have mechanical indicators that have needed service at this distance of time. These read in EV and are probably the easiest to use for Zone System readings. The scale can be marked in zones with a sticker. These are not fully panchromatic out of the box but that never bothered me.

I’ve also used an all-electronic Minolta Spot F, which I loved, but it did not survive being crunched in an accident with an RV slideout.

And I have a Sekonic L-488 that is all electronic and works fine. It was the mostly cheaply acquired of any I’ve owned.

All are 1-degree spot meters.

Rick “a man with two watches never knows the time” Denney

[Fungus]

I've come across some Pentax Digital Spotmeters where the listing says "modified by Zone VI". Is that Fred Picker's outfit? What kind of modifications did they do and are they worthwhile? (I'm assuming the modifications went beyond just putting that zone system sticker on the lens barrel.)

[Drew Wiley]

There are lots of analogous past threads. The unmodified Pentax Digital Spot Meter is the most popular option among Zonies for a good reason. I have several of them, and use them for all my metering regardless of format, and much of it in relation to color photography too. And I'm actually more fussy about exposure than typical Zonies are.

The Minolta Spotmeter F reads identically (I've tried them too); but to me, its push button controls are less intuitive than the simple manual dial method of the Pentax.
Between my entire set of Pentax meters, some of which got really extreme use in the mountains and deserts, it was only about once a decade that one of them would need a minor recalibration. I have always kept a essentially new one in reserve to check my others by.

As far as Fred Picker's claimed improvement or modified version, there was a similar thread not long ago spelling out the differences, along with pros and cons. Just remember, what was once modified for sake of standardizing on a particular film popular at the time - namely, Tri-X 320 - that could diminish appropriateness for other films. Also realize that these modified meters contain added filters which might well have faded over the intervening decades, and now need internal replacement, which only one remaining person can do.

[Peter De Smidt]

Yes, that was Fred Picker's outfit. I have one that I've been happy with for a very long time. Richard Ritter will still adjust them. If I needed a new meter, I'd probably just get a regular Pentax digital.

[linhofbiker]

I bought the Sekonic L-508 when it came out in 1996, I think. It has been reliable and can be used as both a 1 degree spot meter and an incident meter. It will also determine the mid range for the high and low spot readings. And it runs on one AA battery. This was after using Minolta and a Gossen Luna Pro for many years.

[xkaes]

Good luck, FUNGUS. Maybe you should first figure out why you "need" a spot meter for the Zone system, or better yet, why you need the Zone System at all.

[BrianShaw]

Good luck, FUNGUS. Maybe you should first figure out why you "need" a spot meter for the Zone system, or better yet, why you need the Zone System at all.

As harsh as this might sound, it's a great point. :)

In addition to ZS, spot meters are great educational tools for doing scene analysis to learn how to "see" light levels. But so are some mobile phone apps.

To rephase something written earlier:

IMO, you couldn't go wrong with a Sekonic L-558. But, ... you don't need a Zone System to practice the spot meter.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah, I'd flip it too, and state that, One does not necessarily need to engage the Zone System in order to get relevant usage from a 1-degree Spot Meter. They're great for all kinds of things, including color photography too. But it's different than working with an incident meter, averaging meter, or TTL meter. With black and white film, Spot meters are especially efficient at allowing you to compare very specific points, like where you want you deepest shadow textural values to fall, versus the threshold of texture in the highlights, whether in reference to the Zone System methodology or not. If you find a good condition Pentax digital spotmeter at a decent price, buy it! They're not made anymore, yet are still in demand, and for a good reason.

[Doremus Scudder]

I'm a Pentax digital spot meter user. Like Drew, I have several, some modified by Zone VI, some not. In practice, there is no significant difference in the readings from the modified and unmodified meters; maybe 1/3 stop now and then - inconsequential.

I'm a Zone System practitioner too, but use it largely because it provides a way to visualize the subject and plan out-of-the-ordinary exposure and development schemes to obtain a desired result. IM-HO, the Zone System's main advantage is as a visualization tool. That aspect of it almost requires a decent spot meter.

I'm happy with my Pentax spot meters, but they are a bit prone to flare when the spot you are reading is dark and the surrounding area quite light. Readings can be skewed by up to a stop in that scenario. Learning to recognize this and compensate has made my exposures more consistent.

Plus, I find basing exposure on a shadow value the most intuitive and reliable method. After that, one can deal with brightness range and alter development times accordingly, but even if you don't you'll end up with a usable negative. Development schemes for N+ and N- developments are frosting on the cake.

Many like the EV scale on the Pentax spot meters, but I get along just fine with a Zone-System sticker on all of mine. I just align the shadow reading with the Zone I want to place it in and there's my exposure; EZPZ. Then I can measure Subject Brightness Range and decide on developments, or check for tonal mergers and decide to add filters, etc., all using the spot meter as a tool

I even read through filters to get my exposures when using them. However, I don't do this blindly; I've tested my more extreme filters with the films I use and have E.I. adjustment factors for them. Still, reading through the various filters with a spot meter will give you some idea of how the filter will affect tonalities. This can be used to prevent mergers or find the filter that will give you the most separation between tones.

Best,

Doremus

[MartyNL]

While it's not necessary to own a spot meter or use the zone system to make photographs, I wouldn't want to be without the option.

Sometimes, photography can just be about exploring, experimenting and playing, where the only goal is to learn and to have fun.

[Peter De Smidt]

I'm not really sure why some people seem committed to talking him out of using a spot meter and the Zone system. It's been a good combo for lots of people. You like something else better? That's great...for you.

[BrianShaw]

I'm not really sure why some people seem committed to talking him out of using a spot meter and the Zone system. It's been a good combo for lots of people. You like something else better? That's great...for you.

Are differing opinions really so problematic that a post commenting on one possibly divergent opinion is value-added? I’m sure the OP can decide on what to buy, or not buy, by considering all of the varying thoughts in context to personal need/desire. Peace!

[darr]

I have a Pentax Digital Spotmeter, a Minolta Spotmeter F and a Pocket Spot.
They all have their place in my camera bags.

The spot meter I have bought multiples of over 30 years is the Pentax.
The easiest for me to use when zoning is the Pentax.

The one I carry with me for landscape photography for the past few years is the Pocket Spot.
Because of its size and spot-on readings.

[Vaughn]

I have used both varieties of Pentax spot meters. I like the simplicity of the Digital Spot and suggest it.

[Alan Klein]

IMO, you couldn't go wrong with a Sekonic L-558. But, as commented above you don't need a spot meter to practice the Zone System.

How would you take readings? How would you do Zone without a spot meter?

[Alan Klein]

Hi Fungus,
I have the Pentax (Zone VI modified), Minolta FlashMeter III with spot attachment, and a Gossen Luna six that is supposed to do somewhat spot (can't remember the angle). I love the look of the Gossen but have never managed to get it calibrated right, so it's basically decoration now.

Functionally the Minolta and Pentax both seem to work just fine (the Pentax has a smaller angle/finer spot though) and are mostly in agreement (as is the spot meter mode on my digital camera). However, I prefer the workflow with the Pentax as it uses the EV values that I then just transfer to exposures. I end up really just using the Minolta for flash work or the rare time I need incident readings elsewhere. For most of my photography work - where I'm trying to apply zone system principles - it's the Pentax.

Can't comment of the price/value proposition as that varies from one person to the next.

Chris

The "spot" on my Minolta Autometer IIIf with flash is 10 degrees.

[Michael R]

Pentax or Minolta Spotmeter F are both fine - provided the meter has been cared for as these things are old. That’s the wild card. Otherwise a current 1 degree like a Sekonic.

The Pentax is quite common in Zone System circles (AA had one and that’s likely what started the tradition).

My meter is a Minolta Spotmeter F. I bought it new in the early-mid 90s and it has always served me well. Dead easy to use.

There’s fairly comprehensive test data for both the Pentax (ZVI modified/unmodified) and the Minolta, as well as background on standards in Richard Henry’s book for those interested, but the bottom line is they’re both good enough. Not worth quibbling over.

[Alan9940]

how would you take readings? How would you do zone without a spot meter?

btzs?

[Rex176]

For something new, and equivalent in price to some of the decades-old used stuff, have a look at the Reveni Labs spot meter.
https://www.reveni-labs.com/spotmeter

[Alan9940]

For something new, and equivalent in price to some of the decades-old used stuff, have a look at the Reveni Labs spot meter.
https://www.reveni-labs.com/spotmeter

I have one and enjoy using it, but... 1) it eats the little button cell batteries for lunch making the AAA battery accessory mandatory, IMO, and 2) it's not really a spot meter in the true sense of the word, rather I think of it as a center-weighted spot. Definitely not even close to 1 degree.

[rdenney]

And it’s not particularly useful for those of us who lack binocular vision when using such devices.

Rick “sticking with his best Spot V for as long as it works” Denney

[Drew Wiley]

AA's original spotmeter was apparently an SEI. It was eventually auctioned off for the astronomical collectible sum of thirty dollars. Pentax spot meters pretty much dominated a variety of related trades, with the Zone System crowd being just a modest part of it. Movie and television studios valued them. I didn't find the Minolta Spotmeter F push-button operation as convenient; but it's otherwise a fine instrument which reads identically to the Pentax.

[Alan Klein]

You can use many digital cameras as a spot meter as well. It will also display the histogram and blinkies where you're clipping.

[Peter De Smidt]

Setting up a digital camera to act as a light meter for film is not as straight forward as one might think...contrast settings in the camera are really important.....but then you have to run tests with any meter that you get.

[Drew Wiley]

Not the same thing, Alan. With a real spot meter, you get a direct reading, and of exactly what you point it at. Using a phone or digital camera, you get an intervening software-analyzed interpretation. And an exposure that way which might look OK scanned and viewed on a computer screen, might not be so successful when darkroom printed.

[Alan Klein]

Not the same thing, Alan. With a real spot meter, you get a direct reading, and of exactly what you point it at. Using a phone or digital camera, you get an intervening software-analyzed interpretation. And an exposure that way which might look OK scanned and viewed on a computer screen, might not be so successful when darkroom printed.

I checked my spot reading values on my Olympus E-PL1 micro 4/3 camera. They're right on compared to my Minolta IIIf autometer. Why would a digital meter be any less accurate than a hand-held dedicated meter. A meter is a meter. Nikon and Minolta and Olympus know how to use a meter and get an accurate reading.

Of course, the spot is 2-3 degrees not 1 degree. That's effected by the lens I'm using. A bigger zoom would give a smaller spot.

Of course, the histogram and blinkie clip points designed for the digital camera will be somewhat different than the range of film. But for getting just a reading of a spot in EV, zone, or shutter and aperture settings, it's as accurate as a handheld meter.

[neil poulsen]

For field work, the Pentax Digital is just so very nice and convenient. I have a Zone VI modified digital Pentax.

But for testing and darkroom calibrations that are needed to prepare for the Zone System, I prefer the Zone VI modified Pentax analog meter, because I can obtain measurements to the "nearest" 10th stop. The digital Pentax measures only to the nearest 1/3rd stop, which is fine in the field. Both my meters were adjusted by Richard Ritter at the same time. So, they correlate well with each other.

Only Richard can really tell if a Pentax (or Sekonic?) spot meter is actually Zone VI modified. He adjusted four Pentax meters for me at one time (at a substantial price discount per meter), and one that I had purchased as a Zone VI modified, actually wasn't.

If I had only a single spot meter, then it would need to be the Pentax analog meter. But, meters can take quite a jostling in the field, so it was worth it to me to also purchase a more robust, Pentax digital meter for the field.

[Tin Can]

I bought a Sekonic Spotmeter 2008

Still works as new, I use rechargable battery

I dislike rare obsolete tools that need a tuneup

I no longer use my tube radios and don't plug them in

I also use a Sekonic Twinmate L208 I got free

Buy NEW

[Alan9940]

For field work, the Pentax Digital is just so very nice and convenient. I have a Zone VI modified digital Pentax.

But for testing and darkroom calibrations that are needed to prepare for the Zone System, I prefer the Zone VI modified Pentax analog meter, because I can obtain measurements to the "nearest" 10th stop. The digital Pentax measures only to the nearest 1/3rd stop, which is fine in the field. Both my meters were adjusted by Richard Ritter at the same time. So, they correlate well with each other.

Only Richard can really tell if a Pentax (or Sekonic?) spot meter is actually Zone VI modified. He adjusted four Pentax meters for me at one time (at a substantial price discount per meter), and one that I had purchased as a Zone VI modified, actually wasn't.

If I had only a single spot meter, then it would need to be the Pentax analog meter. But, meters can take quite a jostling in the field, so it was worth it to me to also purchase a more robust, Pentax digital meter for the field.

I'm with Neil on this one. I've owned a Zone VI Pentax Digital Spot (bought directly from Fred) for about 40 years and it has never failed me. My only "complaint" is that my old eyes have a little trouble seeing the +1/3 and +2/3 little lights next to the EV readout. That's not a fault of the meter! I, also, have a Zone VI Soligor Spot meter (my first meter) that I've been thinking about sending to Richard for a tune up, as I find it easier to see an analog needle. Yeah, it's not nearly as robust as the Pentax--especially that time it slipped out of my waste band and bounced off a rock before sinking into water--but, Fred graciously fixed it for free. I fessed up to what happened, but he was like "Hey, this kind of stuff happens to all of us."

[Drew Wiley]

Alan, I've learned to routinely have a simple little magnifying glass always in my pocket or camera bag for checking the marks on the meter, since it is a lot more convenient than pulling out a pair of reading glasses each time.

[j.e.simmons]

It was always easier for me to visualize and interpret the analog Pentax needle than the digital numerals.

[BrianShaw]

The Sekonic has a lot more capability than a Pentax digital spot meter. If that additional capability is valuable to the user then it’s a much better meter even at twice the price.

[faberryman]

The Sekonic has a lot more capability than a Pentax digital spot meter. If that additional capability is valuable to the user then it’s a much better meter even at twice the price.

I am sure the Sekonic L-858 is a fine meter if you need all that it has to offer and like the interface. Different meters appeal to different people for different reasons. Folks, we are just measuring light.

[Tin Can]

I need strobe readings

I also use it to check and adjust enlarger projection

and soon for big contact prints

[Alan Klein]

It was always easier for me to visualize and interpret the analog Pentax needle than the digital numerals.

I can estimate time better with an old fashioned clock with an hour and minute hand than I can when looking at a digital clock. It has to do with the analog nature of the way our brains work.

[Fred L]

Had a Pentax Spotmeter V but got rid of it as I found it to be on the bulky side. Have a Minolta Spotmeter F but it needs to be cla'ed. Currently use the digital Pentax and for my needs it works very well (don't use it for Zone). Both are unmodified although one came with the Zone scale.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't gravitate toward bells n' whistles products like the current Sekonic offering. The simpler the better. I like the Pentax just the way it is. Maybe in a studio environment something like that might make more sense, but not stuffed in a backpack pouch, reaching for it during a blizzard, needing to work quick and intuitively.

[faberryman]

I don't gravitate toward bells n' whistles products like the current Sekonic offering. The simpler the better. I like the Pentax just the way it is. Maybe in a studio environment something like that might make more sense, but not stuffed in a backpack pouch, reaching for it during a blizzard, needing to work quick and intuitively.

One alternative is to use a Sekonic for everyday metering tasks, and save the Pentax for when you are out in a blizzard when it is really needed.

[willwilson]

This thread inspired me to purchase a backup Pentax digi. I started out with a Soligor spot sensor II (which is my current backup). No comparison between the two, especially for metering very dark scenes. The Pentax is fast and easy to read. Sometimes the Soligor was difficult to see the reading 100% depending on the scene.

The Soligor is a fine meter though. I took many hundreds of negatives with it. A lot of this will be personal preference. It's harder to try these antique tool out these days so good to have a indepth discussion for folks to reference.

Pentax and Soligor are both big and bulky. They also will get your carryon searched at the airport everytime.

[Fungus]

My wife surprised me this morning with a Pentax Digital Spotmeter in like-new condition for my birthday. I look forward to using it.

[BrianShaw]

Nice wife!

Happy birthday!!

[Ben Calwell]

I’m using (trying to use) a Sekonic Dual Spot meter gifted to me by my brother. It replaces my stolen Pentax V Analog, which I loved. My age-atrophied brain is struggling to figure out this complex piece of gear that has umpteen modes. With the Pentax, I used a homemade zone sticker that made life so easy. With the Sekonic, for me, the easiest method is the Time mode, whereby I adjust zone settings via shutter speed. Not what I’m used to, but the Sekonic is a nice piece of gear, and I’d hate to stick it in a drawer.

[Mark J]

I've used a Soligor for years, I think I chose it because it was lighter than eg. the Pentax. At the time I bought it, someone was selling nicely made stick-on Zone scales for the front bezel, that's done very useful service for over 25 years !

[xkaes]

I’m using (trying to use) a Sekonic Dual Spot meter gifted to me by my brother. It replaces my stolen Pentax V Analog, which I loved. My age-atrophied brain is struggling to figure out this complex piece of gear that has umpteen modes. With the Pentax, I used a homemade zone sticker that made life so easy. With the Sekonic, for me, the easiest method is the Time mode, whereby I adjust zone settings via shutter speed. Not what I’m used to, but the Sekonic is a nice piece of gear, and I’d hate to stick it in a drawer.

You're not the only one dealing with "over-kill". For example, the newer Minolta digital meters are much smaller & lighter, but have so many buttons and features that you have to lug along the user manual with it. I'm happy using my older Minolta meters that seem indestructible, and are very easy to use.

In your case, especially if my brother was living in another State, I'd sell the Sekonic and buy another Pentax V.

[ic-racer]

I made a zone sticker for my Sekonic 1 degree spot meter.
I use the meter's built-in exposure compensation as the zone. Using the sticker for the conversion (or simple math) the zone can be determined from the readout in the viewfinder of the meter.

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