Wide Angle Lens, technique and gear

[willwilson]

Am I asking too much for an easy to focus wide angle for 4x5, not 90mm but 75mm or more? I have tried several variations of camera and lens. I always find myself guessing about corners or dark areas or exact focus. Granted, I have gotten pretty good at it over the years but I'd really like to improve my setup if possible. I'd also like to not have to purchase a bunch of gear to figure it out.

My current setup: Chamonix F-2 4x5, 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon f4.5.

What is your ultimate wide angle and super wide angle setup currently?



-=Will
www.willwilson.com

[Lachlan 717]

What loupe are you using?

[willwilson]

Good question, tried lots. I haven't seen a big difference for wide angle work though, YMMV. Currently using a Rodenstock 4x.

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

[mhayashi]

Try using the Maxwell wide angle Fresnel lens on GG if focusing is the problem for you.
What is a resulting exposure on the film with your setup?

Search in the forum threads to find about Maxwell screens. There are the types for wide angle and normal focal lengths. I bought mine more than 25 years ago.

E.g. of searches:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156836-4x5-Screen-comparison-(Intrepid-Chamonix-Maxwell)

[xkaes]

Corners get dark with wide-angle lenses. You can easily deal with this by using the center of the focusing screen to get what you want in focus -- then reset the composition. The corner will still be dark, but in focus.

Perhaps a better approach is to use DOF scales:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/dof.htm

[willwilson]

Try using the Maxwell wide angle Fresnel lens on GG if focusing is the problem for you.
What is a resulting exposure on the film with your setup?

Search in the forum threads to find about Maxwell screens. There are the types for wide angle and normal focal lengths. I bought mine more than 25 years ago.

E.g. of searches:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?156836-4x5-Screen-comparison-(Intrepid-Chamonix-Maxwell)Good thread. That may be an option to try. Is that what you use for wide and ultra wide mhayashi?

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

[mhayashi]

Um, I don’t know the current line up but Bill Maxwell told me mine is optimized for 75mm focal length, which is great for my Super Angulon 72mm XL. The corners are bright.

[ic-racer]

easy to focus wide angle for 4x5, not 90mm but 75mm or more? I have tried several variations of camera and lens. I always find myself guessing about corners or dark areas or exact focus. Granted, I have gotten pretty good at it over the years but I'd really like to improve my setup if possible. I'd also like to not have to purchase a bunch of gear to figure it out.

My current setup: Chamonix F-2 4x5, 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon f4.5.

What is your ultimate wide angle and super wide angle setup currently?



-=Will
www.willwilson.com

Does that camera have detents? If not, I don't know how you'd ever get it in focus with such a short lens. I use a laser to set the detents on my front and rear standard and find this essential for just about any lens, especially 90mm and shorter.

[Greg]

What is your ultimate wide angle and super wide angle setup currently?

Chamonix whole plate camera with a 90mm f/5.6 Schneider Super-Angulon XL & Schneider IVa Center ND filter. Lens just barely covers the format and the focusing in the corners is a challenge but the final contact prints make it all worth it.

[willwilson]

Does that camera have detents? If not, I don't know how you'd ever get it in focus with such a short lens. I use a laser to set the detents on my front and rear standard and find this essential for just about any lens, especially 90mm and shorter.Can you explain in more detail? What is your setup?

-=Will
www.willwilson.com

[RJ-]

Can you explain in more detail? What is your setup?

-=Will
www.willwilson.com


I guess he is referring to the exacting requirement for plane parallelism of the front & rear standards to operate an ultrawide angle lens: any minor tilt, not visible on a field camera, will amplify the error margin for focussing. Detents, or zero-neutral positions at 0 +/- tilt of standards, shifts and axis.

I used to use Greg's set up on the Chamonix whole plate format [6 1/2 x 8 1/2 inch] with the Schneider Super Angulon XL 90/5.6 lens. With front bed tilt, moving the front rail out of the way, it is operable albeit challenging. This is the widest lens I've been able to use on the whole plate format. The ground glass of the Chamonix is average; neither bright nor outstanding but serviceable. Moved on now to use the Argentum whole plate set up with the 90mm XL lens and it is less troublesome since the front standard operates without the rail intrusion of the Chamonix. The screen seems to be just higher grade glass and easier to focus. That's just my perception although at 90/5.6, a degree of extreme focussing diligence is the norm.

On 4x5 format, the Beattie Intenscreen; the Wista or Ebony bright screens only permit a central area of focus before the whole ground glass glares reflection. This is one reason why using a helicoid focussing on 4x5 lenses like the Schneider Super Angulon 47mm XL f5.6 - particularly with a centre filter - is more deft and smooth - on a Silvestri Hermes which has a rigid solid aluminium billeted chassis with exact plane parallelism to the lens axis. That is - no rear movements: any 4x5 inch camera with a fixed rigid back and no movements like the L shaped Ebony 45S, Argentum Architectural 4x5 or Titan Walker XL have a market for ultra wide angles. Their screens are all very different. The Ebony is the brightest which is also one of the hardest to focus. A 75mm Super Angulon f5.6 is pretty easy to focus - and a Grandagon 75mm f4.5 even more impeccably so. Perhaps the challenge is not the lens ... a 6x Silvestri loupe (pretty hard to get a hold of now) just offers that extra snap over a 4x with the cripplingly tight 8x loupe.

Having had a Chamonix F type whole plate camera, the groundglass is not the last word either, so you have a few options, including inserting a fresnel on the ground glass too. Hope you can work through it. It's rewarding an ultrawide angle set up can be configured. It's a specialist field and most of us ultra wide angle shooters don't conform to the algorithms of standard LF photography :)

Kind regards

[rfesk]

Be aware of field curvature with these wide angle lenses. If you focus in the center only the edges may not be in focus. Dept of field charts are essential in my opinion with wide angle lenses on view cameras.

[Michael R]

90 and 72 are my shortest focal lengths (4x5). Having used/tried a few different cameras I would say in my experience difficulty seeing/focussing, dark corners etc. are more or less a fact of life. The more you practice the better it gets but for me at least it is never easy especially in low light.

I hate it, but when everything works out, I enjoy the large negative in the darkroom, so I put up with view cameras. :)

One “aid” I have is a laser pointer I aim at dark parts/edges and I use the dot to help me check focus and framing. It is useful to me when things aren’t far away and obviously when there are things for the laser to reflect off. This is normally the case for me when using short focal lengths but wouldn’t be very helpful under other circumstances.

Another thing that can sometimes help is a fresnel that is removable. I have one of these. A fresnel basically helps spread the light out somewhat (darker center, brighter edges/corners), but some people find them harder to focus with.

Some people also like tilting loupes. Never had one of those.

Regarding detents and the standards being truly squared up when “zeroed”, I went through a phase when I was obsessing over this. All I can say is don’t assume anything is aligned/calibrated out of the box, no matter what kind of camera or how many/few movements it offers. These are not “precision” things. They never have been, and yet, they work ok. You should be fine with the Chamonix and the f/4.5 Grandagon.


Am I asking too much for an easy to focus wide angle for 4x5, not 90mm but 75mm or more? I have tried several variations of camera and lens. I always find myself guessing about corners or dark areas or exact focus. Granted, I have gotten pretty good at it over the years but I'd really like to improve my setup if possible. I'd also like to not have to purchase a bunch of gear to figure it out.

My current setup: Chamonix F-2 4x5, 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon f4.5.

What is your ultimate wide angle and super wide angle setup currently?



-=Will
www.willwilson.com

[xkaes]

Just reposition the camera so that the edge is in the center. Then you will know if it is is focus. It's SIMPLE!!!

[darr]

My camera is the Ebony RSW with the original screen+fresnel. The wide lenses I shoot with are the Rodenstock 65/4.5 Grandagon and Nikkor 90/4.5 and 90/8. I use an Ebony loupe for checking focus. I honestly do not have any issues. My technique has always been to compose, focus on the most important subject, set the appropriate aperture, normally f/16-22, and use a cable release.

[Mick Fagan]

I have the Fujinon f/5.6 65mm and once I started using a centre filter, I find I have very few focusing issues. Using a centre filter, flattens out the bright centre making it roughly equal to the edges. I use a square based loupe which makes corner and edge focusing easier.

[Alan Klein]

duplicate question

[Tin Can]

Darr

Can you shed light on why I find so many Fresnel in front or behind GG?

Thank you


My camera is the Ebony RSW with the original screen+fresnel. The wide lenses I shoot with are the Rodenstock 65/4.5 Grandagon and Nikkor 90/4.5 and 90/8. I use an Ebony loupe for checking focus. I honestly do not have any issues. My technique has always been to compose, focus on the most important subject, set the appropriate aperture, normally f/16-22, and use a cable release.

[Alan Klein]

Handy app for Windows desktop. Print out the DOF chart for lenses in 4x5 or any other format or you can select the CoC.
https://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Here's are two marked up for 75mm and 90mm 4x5 that you can just print out if you wish. Of course, you can select you own CoC and lens and other formats as well.
240465

240466

[Alan Klein]

I guess he is referring to the exacting requirement for plane parallelism of the front & rear standards to operate an ultrawide angle lens: any minor tilt, not visible on a field camera, will amplify the error margin for focussing. Detents, or zero-neutral positions at 0 +/- tilt of standards, shifts and axis.

I used to use Greg's set up on the Chamonix whole plate format [6 1/2 x 8 1/2 inch] with the Schneider Super Angulon XL 90/5.6 lens. With front bed tilt, moving the front rail out of the way, it is operable albeit challenging. This is the widest lens I've been able to use on the whole plate format. The ground glass of the Chamonix is average; neither bright nor outstanding but serviceable. Moved on now to use the Argentum whole plate set up with the 90mm XL lens and it is less troublesome since the front standard operates without the rail intrusion of the Chamonix. The screen seems to be just higher grade glass and easier to focus. That's just my perception although at 90/5.6, a degree of extreme focussing diligence is the norm.

On 4x5 format, the Beattie Intenscreen; the Wista or Ebony bright screens only permit a central area of focus before the whole ground glass glares reflection. This is one reason why using a helicoid focussing on 4x5 lenses like the Schneider Super Angulon 47mm XL f5.6 - particularly with a centre filter - is more deft and smooth - on a Silvestri Hermes which has a rigid solid aluminium billeted chassis with exact plane parallelism to the lens axis. That is - no rear movements: any 4x5 inch camera with a fixed rigid back and no movements like the L shaped Ebony 45S, Argentum Architectural 4x5 or Titan Walker XL have a market for ultra wide angles. Their screens are all very different. The Ebony is the brightest which is also one of the hardest to focus. A 75mm Super Angulon f5.6 is pretty easy to focus - and a Grandagon 75mm f4.5 even more impeccably so. Perhaps the challenge is not the lens ... a 6x Silvestri loupe (pretty hard to get a hold of now) just offers that extra snap over a 4x with the cripplingly tight 8x loupe.

Having had a Chamonix F type whole plate camera, the groundglass is not the last word either, so you have a few options, including inserting a fresnel on the ground glass too. Hope you can work through it. It's rewarding an ultrawide angle set up can be configured. It's a specialist field and most of us ultra wide angle shooters don't conform to the algorithms of standard LF photography :)

Kind regards

The detents on my Chamonix 45H-1 are handy although the rear tilt detent for neutral is slightly off. Of course, unless your tripod legs are exactly set flat, you have to adjust the standards using a level anyways.

[xkaes]

Personalized DOF scales:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/dof.htm

[Alan Klein]

Handy app for Windows desktop. Print out the DOF chart for lenses in 4x5 or any other format or you can select the CoC.
https://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Here's are two marked up for 75mm and 90mm 4x5 that you can just print out if you wish. Of course, you can select you own CoC and lens and other formats as well.
240465

240466

to keep things consistant, here's the 75mm chart with CoC of .1mm to match the 90mm CoC. What CoC do you use?

[darr]

Darr

Can you shed light on why I find so many Fresnel in front or behind GG?

Thank you

Hey Randy,
I read if the camera maker installs the fresnel, it is usually placed behind the lens in front of the GG.
This keeps dirt off, is better protected, and some say it works better, but I cannot say it works better.
All the Ebony cameras I have had over the years (4 different models, plus one repeat) have it placed like that.
I have always been happy with the setup as my GG is bright enough for me, but I know a few photographers had their Ebony replaced with Maxwell screens over the years.

My studio Norma has a clip-on fresnel, but I am not shooting wides on her, mostly 150-210mm.
I see a little difference in brightness, but if it needed replacing, I would not bother.

I hope I have answered your question!
Darr

[Axelwik]

In addition to my normal loupe that is held against the ground glass I also carry a small finger loupe that has to be held away from the ground glass for the corners. The finger loupe allows me to hold it at an angle (looking toward the back of the lens).