Very wide angles for Horseman 45 FA usability

[xonefs]

So I got my Horseman 45 Fa which I'm happy with. I picked up a Rodenston grandagon 65mm 4.5 for the wide end. It works, but has some challenges. The front rails are in the bottom of the frame and it needs some front rise to clear them. I could live with that but the movements are pretty limited by the bellows with doing even more rise like I would like. it would be much more preferable if I could drop the bed, but with the 65 this is not an option as it can't reach infinity focus with the bed dropped as the standard would need to be off the rails.

I'm wondering does anyone use a 75 with it and can comment on usability? I had read you can drop the bed with a 75 with the standard half hanging off the rails and focus at infinity but I'm curious if it is much more useable in general and anyone can comment on movements with a 75.

[MartyNL]

Hi, is your lens on a flat or sunken lensboard?

[Sal Santamaura]

I have a 75mm f/4.5 Nikkor SW that works well on the moveable rails of my Horseman FA. See this page


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

for modern 75s that might be compatible too. One of the parameters not included is flange-focal distance (FFD). I don't know whether any of those other lenses have shorter FFDs which might drive them into the camera's box, thereby creating the same issues you're having with your 65. Separate research will be necessary to address that possibility.

[Axelwik]

A 10mm recessed lens board should move the front standard out enough to make it work as the 75 described above by Santamaura.

[xkaes]

... I don't know whether any of those other lenses have shorter FFDs which might drive them into the camera's box, thereby creating the same issues you're having with your 65. Separate research will be necessary to address that possibility.

Most very wide lenses have flange focal lengths substantially longer than their optical focal length. For example, the Fujinon 75mm lenses have FFL from 82-85mm, and their 65mm lenses have FFL from 71-73mm -- that +10-15% of the optical FL. That doesn't sound like much, but it can make a big difference -- with or without a recessed lensboard.

[xonefs]

A 10mm recessed lens board should move the front standard out enough to make it work as the 75 described above by Santamaura.

recessed lens boards are not available for the 45FA. it uses an 80x80mm lens board so there is really no room.

I have heard vague mentions of a mythical recessed board for it but no evidence it has ever existed or how that would even work. not sure how even a copal 0 could fit in there with controls. they are certainly not available to buy anywhere.

[Sal Santamaura]

recessed lens boards are not available for the 45FA. it uses an 80x80mm lens board so there is really no room.

I have heard vague mentions of a mythical recessed board for it but no evidence it has ever existed or how that would even work. not sure how even a copal 0 could fit in there with controls. they are certainly not available to buy anywhere.

If memory serves, it was necessary to modify controls so they were operable from forward of the recessed shutter body.


A 10mm recessed lens board should move the front standard out enough to make it work as the 75 described above by Santamaura.

Please refer us to a source for an 80mm square Horseman field camera recessed lens board, 10mm or any other depth, on which to mount a Copal 0 shutter. I tried for decades to source one without success. By the time I became aware that Bob Eskridge had some (7mm) custom-made ones available, he'd sold out.


Most very wide lenses have flange focal lengths substantially longer than their optical focal length. For example, the Fujinon 75mm lenses have FFL from 82-85mm, and their 65mm lenses have FFL from 71-73mm -- that +10-15% of the optical FL. That doesn't sound like much, but it can make a big difference -- with or without a recessed lensboard.

Among 75mm lenses listed on the page I linked to above, here are are their flange focal lengths:


Nikkor 75mm f/4.5 SW: 81.3mm
Fujinon 75mm f/4.5 SWD: 85.1mm
Schneider 75mm f/5.6 Super Angulon: 82.4mm
Rodenstock 75mm f/6.8 Grandagon N: 79mm
Rodenstock 75mm f/4.5 Grandagon N: 82mm

Thus, it seems that any of them other than the slower Rodenstock should be as or more functional on a Horseman FA than my Nikkor SW is. The Fujinon would appear to be the most comfortable to use with movements, given its substantially longer flange focal distance.

[Axelwik]

recessed lens boards are not available for the 45FA. it uses an 80x80mm lens board so there is really no room.

I have heard vague mentions of a mythical recessed board for it but no evidence it has ever existed or how that would even work. not sure how even a copal 0 could fit in there with controls. they are certainly not available to buy anywhere.

Unfortunate that they used the same little lens boards in the 45 as their 6x9 cameras. I once had a 65mm Topcon lens in a recessed board that I used in a Horseman VH. Still have the camera, no longer have the lens or its board.

But... If you can find an extended lens board (opposite of a recessed board), you can reverse it to make a recessed board. I just tried it with my VH and it works. Of course the one I have has a No. 1 hole.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52975015326_13ae3fd72f_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oHdNrd)thumbnail_image0 (17) (https://flic.kr/p/2oHdNrd) by Marco Wikstrom (https://www.flickr.com/photos/197947664@N05/), on Flickr

[Axelwik]

But, doesn't look like a No. 0 shutter would fit. Too bad.

[rfesk]

recessed lens boards are not available for the 45FA. it uses an 80x80mm lens board so there is really no room.

I have heard vague mentions of a mythical recessed board for it but no evidence it has ever existed or how that would even work. not sure how even a copal 0 could fit in there with controls. they are certainly not available to buy anywhere.

As Sal mentioned, I did have a few recessed lens boards and sold them all long ago. They were made on a CNC machine by my friend. To install a lens some modifications were required on the Copal 0 shutter's controls just to install the 65mm lens.

I have another friend who has used even shorter lenses on a VH. But to focus he has to manually move the front standard on the rails in the camera itself.
No movements of course.

[xonefs]

As Sal mentioned, I did have a few recessed lens boards and sold them all long ago. They were made on a CNC machine by my friend. To install a lens some modifications were required on the Copal 0 shutter's controls just to install the 65mm lens.

I have another friend who has used even shorter lenses on a VH. But to focus he has to manually move the front standard on the rails in the camera itself.
No movements of course.

That’s too bad- I wouldn’t mind modifying controls. do you have photos by any chance? Or cad files? I guess I could try making my own but I was hoping to leave on a trip in a week or so so it would be very short notice to get something made.

[Jeff Keller]

There were extension tubes made for the VH. Try ebay 292940547788 (Metal 12mm and 22mm Extension Lens Board Copal #1 For Horseman VH VH-R 45FA 45HD). As Axelwik mentioned you might be able to reverse it to have a recessed board.

I thought Luland made them, but I didn't see any in their store.

jeff

[ic-racer]

I have used the Horseman 6x9cm 65mm lens on my FA 4x5" camera. It is a little fiddly because the standard just grabs the back edge of the focus track. It does cover and makes fine images.

239603

[James Pierce]

65mm is about the limit, if my memory is correct there is a drop bed mode where you drop the front bed down on an angle and then compensate with the front standard to buy some extra room.

[xonefs]

65mm is about the limit, if my memory is correct there is a drop bed mode where you drop the front bed down on an angle and then compensate with the front standard to buy some extra room.

As I said in the original post, when the bed is dropped with a 65 it can't reach infinity focus which is my main problem.

[xonefs]

I am considering getting a Grandagon N 75mm 4.5 though it is a lot of cash I didn't want to spend. I am curious if it is enough to solve my problem and be able to drop the bed and have a little more movement.

[xkaes]

Make sure the rear of the lens will fit through the front.

[Sal Santamaura]

I am considering getting a Grandagon N 75mm 4.5 though it is a lot of cash I didn't want to spend. I am curious if it is enough to solve my problem and be able to drop the bed and have a little more movement.

See my post #7 above.


Make sure the rear of the lens will fit through the front.

The Rodenstock 75mm f/4.5 Grandagon-N's rear cell is 60mm in diameter. The Horseman FA's front standard lens opening is 65mm in diameter. Tight, but fits.

[xonefs]

Wondering if anyone has used both the Rodenstock 75 4.5 grandagon and Nikkor 75 4.5 and can compare?

The nikkor 75 is a bit cheaper, but my other lenses are all rodenstock and while I have not used any of their large format lenses my experience with 35mm nikkor lenses is that they are very hit or miss and overrated optically.