ULF > Macro options?

[cpjfox]

Hi All,

Long time listener first time poster (I think).

I’m looking at building a static camera in my dark room for 40x50” tintype. Searches have yielded me several options for that kind of coverage, but I want to go bigger than macro, 2:1 or more. Head shots are my thing and I want to go big.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Tin Can]

I have made 3-1, 11/14 X-Ray contact prints

I will post prints tomorrow

[ridax]

The larger the magnification, the shorter a focal length is sufficient to cover the format. With an image twice bigger than life-size, a 600mm f/9 CZJ Apo-Tessar is enough to cover 40x50". But this way, you sacrifice the perspective. Myself, I avoid taking head pictures with less then 6 feet between the subject and the lens. For 40x50", that means the need of a 1200mm focal length.

[Tin Can]

I have shot 800 SF and very sharp 900 Jena f9

I had a hole in my DR wall to outside for the 800

Time

[cpjfox]

I have shot 800 SF and very sharp 900 Jena f9

I had a hole in my DR wall to outside for the 800

Time

Good to know I’m not insane in my plan to turn part of my DR into a camera haha. I’d love a mobile setup like Ian Ruhter but while I learn the intricacies of the wet plate process I’ll settle for building a partition inside my DR and make that the camera.

[Drew Bedo]

Full Disclosure: I don';t know what I am talking about.

OK, with that said, I recall an old technology used in education where a "projection microscope" was set up to project an image onto a screen or wall so that a group of students could all see whatever it was on the slide. This would have been a ratio much larger than 2:1 right?

Can this basic scheme be used to project a larger image than would normally be thrown by a lens? And yes, light will be an issue..

[Dan Fromm]

Full Disclosure: I don';t know what I am talking about.

OK, with that said, I recall an old technology used in education where a "projection microscope" was set up to project an image onto a screen or wall so that a group of students could all see whatever it was on the slide. This would have been a ratio much larger than 2:1 right?

Can this basic scheme be used to project a larger image than would normally be thrown by a lens? And yes, light will be an issue..

Hmm. Yes, you could use a lens to project an image on a convenient surface such as a wall and then photograph it. I don't see a good reason to do this. The lens can also project an image on a sensitized surface such as film in a camera. The direct way seems much better.

FWIW, the "photograph an image projected on a surface" approach is used by some fanciers of tiny format digital cameras. They claim this is large format photography.

[Tin Can]

Most of us should remeber school slide show with much larger glass plates then 35mm and MF

I buy some made long ago

or NOS never used, let me repeat NOS




I need a new high rez DIGI wall projector

My last one is too old, 2003

[cpjfox]

I just stumbled on this while researching apo-tessars, by a forum member Dr Klaus Schmitt, unfortunately all the focal lenses are too short, but an interesting resource none the less.

http://www.macrolenses.de/

Does anyone have any information regarding the close focus of the big apo-Tessars? 900/9 and 1200/11

[cpjfox]

How long ago did you go to school? ;-)

Found this one from the late 1800’s

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_V61.html

[ridax]

Does anyone have any information regarding the close focus of the big apo-Tessars? 900/9 and 1200/11

I own the Apo-Tessars but sorry I do not understand your question....

[cpjfox]

I own the Apo-Tessars but sorry I do not understand your question....

How close to the lens can I place the subject and still achieve focus? Or a different question that’ll give me the answer I’m looking for, what is the maximum magnification with those lenses?

While I have your attention also do you know the image circles?

[Tin Can]

I was chastized here years ago for not using proper Macro lenses

FYI I have several now

Macro is all about magnifation of subject to larger than 1 to 1 onto the recording medium

If I want to FILL an 11X14 FILM I need a very good lens, lot's of light and fiddling

Macro is not copying a wall with tiny medium, aka film

I will post some now

MC engine at 1-1 on 11X14 film setup and print

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50791660522_1fd89930a3_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/D3088F2y32)883 Macro 11X14 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/D3088F2y32) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

This nearly 2.5-1 on 11X14 trimed on right

360mm LF lens

https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/444h5U4uUG

[cpjfox]

Macro is all about magnifation of subject to larger than 1 to 1 onto the recording medium…

…Macro is not copying a wall with tiny medium, aka film

I may not have made it clear in the thread, apologies.

There will be no wall copying, the stretch goal is a tintype headshot at 40 x 50”.

The time may come where I have to accept that the “right” lens doesn’t exist and improvise, but I’m not there yet. I just know I’m going to need a focal length in the vicinity of 1200mm.

[Tin Can]

It becomes very difficult and expensive real fast

Good luck

[cpjfox]

It becomes very difficult and expensive real fast

Good luck

Thankyou, If it was easy and cheap everyone would be doing it.

I can’t explain my motivation, but this feels like the next step for my lifetime project which started on 35mm film 20 years ago and has progressed through 120, 4x5 & 8x10 film, 8x10 Polaroid and Digital 4x5 composite. These big shots will be challenging and expensive but also, with any luck, spectacular.

Once I know what I, doing I’ll be mounting it on a truck or trailer and travelling my country with it. It’s my moonshot.

[Tin Can]

YouTube

Look for 2 guys making plates your size

There are many

[cpjfox]

YouTube

Look for 2 guys making plates your size

There are many

Thankyou for the tip.

[Hugo Zhang]

There are some tables in this catalogue from 1890 showing the focal length, bellows draw and head sizes on the ground glass. Maybe they can give you some ideas?

https://www.antiquecameras.net/antiqueadvertisements/1890lenscatalogue.html

[cpjfox]

There are some tables in this catalogue from 1890 showing the focal length, bellows draw and head sizes on the ground glass. Maybe they can give you some ideas?

https://www.antiquecameras.net/antiqueadvertisements/1890lenscatalogue.html

Very cool, Thank you.

[ridax]

How close to the lens can I place the subject and still achieve focus? Or a different question that’ll give me the answer I’m looking for, what is the maximum magnification with those lenses?

While I have your attention also do you know the image circles?

With any lens, the maximum magnification is infinity - that's when the subject to the lens distance is equal to the lens focal length. It is the minimum magnification that is dependent on the lens coverage compared to the film format used.

And the image perspective is dependent on the lens to the subject distance which in turn is dependent on the lens focal length.

The f/9 CZJ Apo-Tessars cover 57°; that means the linear coverage at infinity to be slightly more than the lens focal length (so the 300mm Apo-Tessar just covers 8x10" without movements). The 1200mm Apo-Tessar is slower than f/9 so its diameter is less, and the barrel makes more vignetting so the 1200's angle is less than its shorter focal length cousins'.

The 6-element 1200mm f/15 LOMO PM-1 covers 53° (120cm / 47.5") at infinity.
The Rodenstock Apo-Rionar-CL 1200mm f/16 covers 126cm / 49.5" at infinity.

That means that with the PM-1 lens, you are able to take any pictures from about 1/3 life-size with about 16 feet between the lens and the subject to any greater magnification with closer distances on 40x50".

P.S.: PM sent.

[cpjfox]

Thankyou for the pm, the system will not allow a reply (mailbox quota).

So let’s pretend I’m an idiot with much to learn, focusing much closer than infinity, does the coverage increase or decrease.

If I use them At 1:1 I can expect the typical 2 x focal length bellows draw cant I.

I may end up resizing my expectations, but, as the saying goes, shoot for the moon, it’s small and you’ll probably miss and float for an eternity in the vastness of space.

[ridax]

focusing much closer than infinity, does the coverage increase or decrease

It increases.

So your main concern would probably be to get a lens long enough (1) to be able to put the subject far enough to get nice perspective that does not deform face features and (2) to be usable for other applications that do not imply the magnifications that large.

PM box emptied.

[Dan Fromm]

I just stumbled on this while researching apo-tessars, by a forum member Dr Klaus Schmitt, unfortunately all the focal lenses are too short, but an interesting resource none the less.

http://www.macrolenses.de/

Does anyone have any information regarding the close focus of the big apo-Tessars? 900/9 and 1200/11

900 and 1200 mm respectively when the film plane is infinitely far away.

[cpjfox]

900 and 1200 mm respectively when the film plane is infinitely far away.

Which I’m guessing is only going to give me 1:1?

My darkroom needs to be larger if I’m going to need to stretch out to infinity. I only have 4.5m (14ft) to play with.

[Dan Fromm]

Which I’m guessing is only going to give me 1:1?

My darkroom needs to be larger if I’m going to need to stretch out to infinity. I only have 4.5m (14ft) to play with.

No, at 1:1 the film plane-to-subject distance is 4 focal lengths. And at 1:1, the front node-to-subject distance and rear node-to-film plane distance are 2 focal lengths. For many, not all, lenses the nodes are close to the lens' diaphragm.

Please stop seeking enlightenment via question and answer sessions on a bulletin board. Buy a good book on closeup photography, read it, and then ask for help with whatever you still don't understand. The likely book is

Lefkowitz, Lester. 1979. The Manual of Close-Up Photography. Amphoto. Garden
City, NY. 272 pp. ISBN 0-8174-2456-3 (hardbound) and 0-8174-2130-0 (softbound). A
thorough discussion of getting the magnification, lighting, and exposure. Especially good
on working above 1:1. Extensive bibliography.

Available used at relatively low prices from used booksellers on the 'net, such as abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, ...

[Tin Can]

I bought that book on Dan's advice years ago

I suggest you first try it on tiny format 8X10

I have an old copy camera, no movements, very heavy, many here told me throw it away

I adapted 4X5, 5X7 and 8X10 Calumet backs

to try things on a smaller scale

I use a very sharp 120mm LF lens

Books are good, we need to SEE it to Grok

Here is that custom back showing the GG and recording it on iPad5

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51090741875_1805ca3bc7_o.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/5PB0hXVQaS)webLevy 8X10 Macro 2-1 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/5PB0hXVQaS) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Tin Can]

Overview

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51090018102_329e3637c5_o.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/j1816541mU)1Levy Process Camera (https://www.flickr.com/gp/tincancollege/j1816541mU) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Tin Can]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51004682617_4002abafcf_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kH7kaB)X-Ray Film Macro shot on 11X114 (https://flic.kr/p/2kH7kaB) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

[Tracy Storer]

If you work out how much magnification you want, and what the distance will be from the lens to your plate, the math to determine the needed focal length is a simple algebraic equation.
Average human head is around 9" from chin to top of head, how big do you want that on your 40x50 plate?
What will the distance be from your lens to your plate?



Hi All,

Long time listener first time poster (I think).

I’m looking at building a static camera in my dark room for 40x50” tintype. Searches have yielded me several options for that kind of coverage, but I want to go bigger than macro, 2:1 or more. Head shots are my thing and I want to go big.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[drew.saunders]

Many of your equations are here: https://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/bellows.php

So, with 40x50", a 4x life size image will give you a subject size of 1/4 your plate size, or 12.5x10", which would be a pretty good tight head shot not unlike the example in your first post.

Let's stick with inches to make life easier. You've had a 24" (600mm) and 36" (900mm) lens recommended, so we'll do the math with either of them. Common lenses in those focal lengths are Tessar formulas, where the image circle is just a bit larger than the distance of the lens to the image plane, so we'll stick with that math. I.e.: A 24" lens focused at infinity will have a 24" image circle, and you need a 64" image circle, so that won't work.

OK, 4x life size:
M = (B-F) / F
where M = magnification ratio, B = bellows extension, F = focal length

4 = (B-24)/24, solve for B. That's 72" of bellows extension, giving about a 72" image circle (and many stops less light), so a 24" lens would work just fine. 72" is 1.83m for most of the world!
4 = (B-26)/36, that's 108" of bellows draw. That's a pretty large camera, if you want to work with a 900mm/36" lens!

What's your working distance with a 24" lens and 72" of bellows, or a 36" lens with 108" of bellows?

1/F = 1/D + 1/B
where F = focal length, D = distance, B = Bellows Draw

1/24 = 1/D + 1/72, D is 36" (just under a meter in the modern world). That may be a bit close to your subject, or not, that's for you to decide.
1/36 = 1/D + 1/108, D is 54".

Maybe try to find a 800mm or 900mm lens? Good luck!

[cpjfox]

I bought that book on Dan's advice years ago

I suggest you first try it on tiny format 8X10…

I’m embarrassed to say i’ll probably start on 4x5


Many of your equations are here: https://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/bellows.php
…
… Maybe try to find a 800mm or 900mm lens? Good luck!

Thankyou for taking the time to help show the algebra behind it, it will save me some time and misery no doubt as i plan the next phase.


With any lens, the maximum magnification is infinity…

Thankyou for sharing also, foolishly i’m self taught without regard to youtube or books, so a lot of what seems pretty common knowledge is still mysterious for me.


No, at 1:1 the film plane-to-subject distance is 4 focal lengths. And at 1:1, the front node-to-subject distance and rear node-to-film plane distance are 2 focal lengths…

Please stop seeking enlightenment via question and answer sessions on a bulletin board…

Thanks Dan for providing me with the means to gain enlightenment, I will be buying a copy of the book this week and I will study it in earnest. I am sorry for overstepping the bounds of what this forum is for.


If you work out how much magnification you want, and what the distance will be from the lens to your plate, the math to determine the needed focal length is a simple algebraic equation.
Average human head is around 9" from chin to top of head, how big do you want that on your 40x50 plate?
What will the distance be from your lens to your plate?

Hi Tracy, firstly wow, 20x24 polaroid, thats on my bucket list, before I die I hope to travel to america and use one of those mammoth cameras, thankyou for keeping the cameras and my dream alive. To answer your question I want the head to be most of the plate, nominally ~40” I’ll sit down and do some maths about the distance from lens to plate, I will make the camera as big as I have to, it’s basically going to be an oversized “Big Shot” for this project.

[Dan Fromm]

I am sorry for overstepping the bounds of what this forum is for.

There are few bounds here, and they are enforced by the moderators. You didn't overstep the bounds, you made the common beginner's mistake of asking an apparently simple question that required a book-length answer. The bulletin board medium is useful, but the helpful people who post on bulletin boards can't be expected to put books up on them.

Good luck, have fun. Never forget that there's much to be said for the joy of tinkering.