Mysterious 4x5 sheet development problem. Am I inverting too hard?

[Certain Exposures]

Hey folks,

I've noticed scratching and peeling on some 4x5 sheets of film I've developed during the last few sessions. Basic details:


Scratches and peeling never appear on the emulsion. It's always on the opposite side.
It doesn't matter what developing reel I use. I've seen similar patterns using multiple types.
I've seen it on B&W negatives and E6 slides.
I've been doing manual inversion (by hand).
It doesn't happen every single time. Just often enough to keep me guessing.


Here are a few examples:

https://imgur.com/a/3Kbsi2K

I can only think of two possibilities.




I'm agitating the film too hard, so the negative moves around too much, regardless of the reel type. That would be weird because this is a recent problem, not a long-term one. Am I growing stronger?

My film is damaged. I bought it all in bulk a few years ago and refrigerated it. Everything is 2-3 years "expired."


Have any of you already worked through a similar problem? Do the scratches and peeling look familiar to you? I'm trying to solve this mystery without spending too much on fresh film and chemistry. I have a shoot coming up.

[Willie]

Does this occur on all four edges of the film? You only show two areas.

[Certain Exposures]

Does this occur on all four edges of the film? You only show two areas.

Yes, when it happens I do see it on all four edges.

[otto.f]

You didn’t tell us whether you develop in tray, tank, or tube. And if tube or tank, which one

[Fred L]

just spitballing here. when you load the film onto the reels (steel or plastic ?) is the emulsion in or out ? Also if you have access to Simma or Unicolour type tubes, I'd suggest this as one way to rule out equipment.

good luck, hope someone here can shed some light on the issue

[Tin Can]

Do trays one sheet at a time until...

Trays should be one size bigger

[Certain Exposures]

You didn’t tell us whether you develop in tray, tank, or tube. And if tube or tank, which one

I use a Patterson 3 tank. I alternate between the B's 4x5 reel and the 20th century 4x5 reel.


just spitballing here. when you load the film onto the reels (steel or plastic ?) is the emulsion in or out ? Also if you have access to Simma or Unicolour type tubes, I'd suggest this as one way to rule out equipment.

good luck, hope someone here can shed some light on the issue

The reels I use hold the non-emulsion side and expose the emulsion side to the chemistry. I don't have a Simma/Unicolour type tube but I'll look into it. Thanks!


Do trays one sheet at a time until...

Trays should be one size bigger

Haha, the tray thread (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?172816-Is-tray-development-the-best-way-to-avoid-scratches-What-DON-T-you-like-about-it) has me skeptical I'd get better results...I will try tray development at least once with B&W film. However, trays won't work for E6. That's what I'll be shooting soon.

[otto.f]

Isn’t it just simple? The back rubs against the tank when putting the sheet in and out?

[Certain Exposures]

Isn’t it just simple? The back rubs against the tank when putting the sheet in and out?

I don't think so because:

1. I've seen similar patterns from the B's reel and the 20th Century Graphic reel despite them having different designs. The 20th Century Graphic does not touch as much of the negative yet I've seen the same scratching. The B's reel is smooth on the inside and includes a separate "pusher" that gently ejects the sheet.

2. This is a recent development and it's intermittent. I've developed sheets with both reels without this problem.

[djdister]

Over agitation does not cause scratches on the base side, mishandling or rough handling the film does that. Either you are doing it in your processing, or it was done to the film by someone else.

You really should try tray processing, starting with one sheet and then when you get good you can tray process about 4 sheets at a time by shuffling them. I've done tray processing in small batches and never got those kinds of scratches.

[jnantz]

develop a sheet of film right out of the box.

regarding tray development ... I don't do 1 at a time, I have developed 30 sheets at a time and never an issue.
maybe it's just me I don't know .. I've never had a problem with sheet film development except with 1 bad hanger
and it's the reason I went to trays. I didn't have the time or energy to deal with development BS ...

good luck figuring out the remedy to your problem!
John

[Fred L]

Any way this could be film holder related ? Maybe something is catching/scratching the film. Kind of a stretch I know as I'm not sure how it could affect the short sides vs film sliding under the rails.

[djdister]

Any way this could be film holder related ? Maybe something is catching/scratching the film. Kind of a stretch I know as I'm not sure how it could affect the short sides vs film sliding under the rails.

Yeah, and that is what I meant by mishandling/rough handling of the film, to include to/from the film holder (especially true for the black marks near the notches). I am also wondering why the film edge isn't clear - it looks like partial fogging or just old film.

[paulbarden]

I use a Patterson 3 tank. I alternate between the B's 4x5 reel and the 20th century 4x5 reel.

And this is why I do NOT use tanks for developing sheet film. It's trays or nothing for me.